Which Team Is The Devil Playing For...?

[Sabertooth]

(A thread to continue this debate from another thread.)

 

[Hidden In Him]

(A thread to continue this debate from another thread.)

In answer to the OP topic: The Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

 

[Sabertooth]

@quietthinker wrote,

This question might appear off topic but it's not. Have you ever spoken to a religious Jew re the Devil?....have you ever asked him what the Serpent thing about was in Eden or the intro to Job? If you haven't you might be surprised at their answer....I would try it and perhaps we could continue this conversation with your new knowledge. What do you think?

 

[Sabertooth]

Have you ever spoken to a religious Jew re the Devil?....have you ever asked him what the Serpent thing about was in Eden or the intro to Job?

I don't know such a person. I have only talked to Messianic Jews, but not about that topic specifically.

 

[Sabertooth]

@quietthinker wrote,

The long and short of it is they don't believe in a devil. They believe God orchestrates everything good and bad. The understanding of this gives a new perspective to some of the statements in the Old Testament.

Going to a synagogue and speaking with a Rabbi re this would be an interesting experience.

 

[Sabertooth]

The long and short of it is they don't believe in a devil.

Jesus seems to [Matthew 4:1-11, also Luke 4:1-13].

 

[Sabertooth]

@quietthinker wrote,

yeah...Jesus broke the mould. It wasn't until Jesus that we learn't who this underhanded figure is.....he identifies the dark side contrary to what the Jews believed.

 

[Sabertooth]

@quietthinker wrote,

Do you understand what the implications of this is Sabertooth?

 

[Sabertooth]

Do you understand what the implications of this is Sabertooth?

I saw it as confirmation of Satan's existence, since Jesus, Himself, was tempted by him, face-to-face.
(Your only other option is to side with Jewish tradition, against Jesus.)

No One Believes In Me Anymore (Satan's Boast), Keith Green (1977)

(BTW, Keith was a Messianic Jew.)

 

[Sabertooth]

@quietthinker wrote,

@ Sabertooth, Well it basically means that the references in the OT that make it appear that God is behind certain killing is the the reflection of the view that the Hebrews had ie, that God is responsible for both the good and the bad....even the prophets held this view. When Jesus turned up he had views which were unprecedented. Regarding the matter of good and evil he identified Satan as the originator of evil.

In the story of Job, Job didn't know that it was Satan who was afflicting him.....neither did his friends. There are other references also which show the same principle.

Finally, there are many more things that can be said about this but they beg enquiry for without it any answers given are pointless.

 

[Sabertooth]

When Jesus turned up he had views which were unprecedented. Regarding the matter of good and evil he identified Satan as the originator of evil.

Are you trying to make the case that His views were incorrect?

 

[Sabertooth]

@quietthinker wrote,

No, I'm saying one needs to understand how the Jews saw the element of evil if one is to get a handle on how the scripture writes on this stuff.

 

[Sabertooth]

No, I'm saying one needs to understand how the Jews saw the element of evil if one is to get a handle on how the scripture writes on this stuff.

So, you don't think that Jesus' exposure of the Devil should redefine his Old Testament appearances?

Also, if that was the tradition of the Pharisees of Jesus' time (that both good & evil came from God),
how were they able to understand His insult of them?
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
He was a murderer from the beginning,

and does not stand in the truth,
because there is no truth in him.​

When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources,
for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8:44 NKJV

Further, the Pharisees knew of a dark hierarchy when they accused Jesus,
“This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,
the ruler of the demons.” Matthew 12:24 NKJV

Both of the previous verses show that "traditional" Jews (of the time) recognized a literal "Devil."

"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God';
for God cannot be tempted by evil,
nor does He Himself tempt anyone." James 1:13 NKJV

 

[Sabertooth]

The long and short of it is they don't believe in a devil. They believe God orchestrates everything good and bad. The understanding of this gives a new perspective to some of the statements in the Old Testament.

Going to a synagogue and speaking with a Rabbi re this would be an interesting experience.

@amadeus wrote,

Satan, the adversary or simply... the left hand of God!

 

[Sabertooth]

Satan, the adversary or simply... the left hand of God!

Do you believe that, or are you just boiling down the other poster's statement?

 

[Sabertooth]

@amadeus wrote,

What do I believe? I believe that every man born of woman throughout his course [his lifetime] works either "for" God or "with" God to accomplish men's part in God's overall plan. Those working "with" God should be the ones paying close attention to God's perfect will for a situation. This should include anyone who really has been "born again" (born from above). [I purposely used the word, should, because of what I see in that respect.]

The ones not working "with" Him are working "for" God anyway, many times [or always?] accomplishing the curses which people have brought upon themselves according to God's Word. These would be working in or as the Left Hand of God or for Satan:

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." II Sam 24:1

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." I Chron 21:1

 

[Sabertooth]

So, do you see Satan as a willful tool of God or an unwitting one?

 

[Sabertooth]

Satan, the adversary or simply... the left hand of God!

@quietthinker wrote,

Satan was see like we might seen the public prosecutor.....the accuser.

 

[Sabertooth]

So, do you see Satan as a willful tool of God or an unwitting one?

@amadeus wrote,

Or perhaps some man in that role named as Satan as Peter was named Satan by Jesus? Which one is worse in the eyes of God, the unbeliever who performs or instigates the curses, or the believer in a lapse who does the same?

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Matt 18:7

And then the measuring is to be done as per...

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

 

[Sabertooth]

Or perhaps some man in that role named as Satan as Peter was named Satan by Jesus?

Jesus wasn't addressing Peter. He was addressing Satan who was manipulating Peter, an unwitting participant.

Satan was see like we might seen the public prosecutor.....the accuser.

If that were true, God wouldn't have created Hell just for him.
Jesus said,
"Depart from Me, you cursed,
into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:..." Matthew 25:41 NKJV