Which Team Is The Devil Playing For...?

[Sabertooth]

Jesus wasn't addressing Peter. He was addressing Satan who was manipulating Peter, an unwitting participant.

If that were true, God wouldn't have created Hell just for him.
Jesus said,
"Depart from Me, you cursed,
into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:..." Matthew 25:41 NKJV

@quietthinker wrote,

Hell is a whole other subject to explore. Consider this, If God is consistent ie, as in the revealing of himself in Jesus then 'Hell' as it is understood as a place of torment for eternity doesn't fit into the equation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

yeah...Jesus broke the mould. It wasn't until Jesus that we learn't who this underhanded figure is.....he identifies the dark side contrary to what the Jews believed.

Not that I wish to interfere with your discussion, but the above is actually a bit of an assumption. The Jews were well aware of who Satan was because he was mentioned in their scriptures very plainly in several OT texts, including 1 Chronicles 21:1 and Job 1:6-12 among others. What modern Jews might believe today is not synonymous with what they did back then. Even the Pharisees clearly believed in the Devil, otherwise they would not have accused Jesus of serving him. (Matthew 9:34; Matthew 12:24).

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

@quietthinker wrote,

Hell is a whole other subject to explore. Consider this, If God is consistent ie, as in the revealing of himself in Jesus then 'Hell' as it is understood as a place of torment for eternity doesn't fit into the equation.

Oh... I see where this is going.

Have fun, Sabertooth. Maybe I can participate in this one with you, but I don't think he'll like my answers, any more than I think he likes me... so maybe I'll just keep moving, LoL.

 

[amadeus]

@quietthinker wrote,

yeah...Jesus broke the mould. It wasn't until Jesus that we learn't who this underhanded figure is.....he identifies the dark side contrary to what the Jews believed.

What if it is also contrary to what most labeled Christians today believe? Is that not also a possibility if most of them today are not being led in their beliefs in on this point by the Holy Spirit? What do we see in our supposedly primarily Christian nation of the United States?

 

[Sabertooth]

Not that I wish to interfere with your discussion,...

It is open to whoever. It was just derailing another thread.
(Quotes from the copied material may not attribute correctly.)

 

[Sabertooth]

What if it is also contrary to what most labeled Christians today believe?

Then Satan tempting Jesus in the desert, as well as Jesus creating Hell specifically for the Devil, is going to be a source of cognitive dissonance for them.

I don't consider it to be my job to enforce any doctrines.

 

[amadeus]

@Sabertooth

Sabortooth said:
Jesus wasn't addressing Peter. He was addressing Satan who was manipulating Peter, an unwitting participant.

Is that the belief or knowledge you received through the Holy Spirit?

Do you always know correctly every interpretation of every verse of written scripture? If your answer is, no, then what if you are wrong in this one? If, however, your answer is, yes, should everyone who disagrees back away from the discussion?

Of course there is also the possibility that you don't know if your answer is, no or yes. I don't believe you are going that way. Am I wrong?

 

[amadeus]

Then Satan tempting Jesus in the desert is going to be a problem for them, as well as Jesus creating Hell specifically for the Devil.

That may be so. I cannot speak for anyone else but me.

I don't consider it to be my job to enforce any doctrines.

Nor is it mine!

 

[Sabertooth]

Is that the belief or knowledge you received through the Holy Spirit?

That context matches my experience with deliverance ministry, and is the most straightforward interpretation.

When Jesus did deliverance (elsewhere), you can tell when He was talking to the person or to the spirit in question. The Bible interprets the Bible.

 

[amadeus]

That context matches my experience with deliverance ministry, and is the most straightforward interpretation.

When Jesus did deliverance (elsewhere), you can tell when He was talking to the person or to the spirit in question. The Bible interprets the Bible.

The Bible may indeed interpret the Bible for a person when the interpretation for that person comes from the Holy Spirit. Man's seemingly logical fitting of parts of written scripture one against another or one with another to determine truth will not always work. Men too often make a habit of drawing conclusions based on similar past experiences they have experienced or witnessed. Men too often, in my experience quench the Holy Spirit in deciding where to go from here. One of the results of this is a multitude of different denominations based on the same Bibles.

 

[Yan]

Now lets take a look at the "Quo Vadis" that made Peter cruxified. If catholic believed that Peter had followed Jesus by his sight seeing, did Peter had seeing the "true Jesus" or he was seeing the devil who covered as Jesus, when Jesus himself had told him in this verse before John 21:18-19.
If CC used the Apocrypha acts of Peter, why did they rejects the other Apocrypha Books and another lost book of Bible ?
And if the Jews used both the Old Testament & Talmud, so they don't see the Kabbalah teaching as the forbidden tree itself as in Kabbalah taught that God is the form of darkness and evil as the quality of God; that's why Job was tempted by devil as God's assessment tools (Job 4:15-18).
Now, let us see that Moses died in unknown mountain and God already told that Moses won't be delivered onto the promised land as the one who will crossed the Jordan river was Joshua (Deuteronomy 32:48-52).
But when Jesus walked the earth he was talked to both Moses & Elijah on the mountain (Matthew 17:1-13).
So, it doesn't matter which places you will trust your faith on this earth as God had never put any religion as His most beloved one among others, God gives salvation to all mankind (Ephesians 2:11-22).
Why did we still fight each other to be the most true church and fight as the most number one church on earth ?
We should end this wasteful race of religion as the actions will shown us as a nonbeliever or unborn Christian (Galatians 5:19-21).

 

[Sabertooth]

(@Yan, this topic started out as a derail of another thread. We don't need to derail it, too.

Besides, it is in the Debate sub-forum, so a call to cease in our disagreement is inappropriate here.)

 

[quietthinker]

So, you don't think that Jesus' exposure of the Devil should redefine his Old Testament appearances?

Also, if that was the tradition of the Pharisees of Jesus' time (that both good & evil came from God),
how were they able to understand His insult of them?
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
He was a murderer from the beginning,

and does not stand in the truth,
because there is no truth in him.​

When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources,
for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8:44 NKJV

Further, the Pharisees knew of a dark hierarchy when they accused Jesus,
“This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub,
the ruler of the demons.” Matthew 12:24 NKJV

Both of the previous verses show that "traditional" Jews (of the time) recognized a literal "Devil."

"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God';
for God cannot be tempted by evil,
nor does He Himself tempt anyone." James 1:13 NKJV

The influence of other cultures had Israel adopt certain positions later in their history. By the time Jesus arrived, Beelzebub, a Philistine deity was associated with evil.
The Shattan however was seen more like we see a prosecutor....one to bring out the truth rather than one who is inherently evil. However, it was Jesus who clarified that Satan (English transliteration)was the originator of evil contrary to the Jewish perception.

Check with a religious Jew....like I said, You might be surprised by their view.

 

[Sabertooth]

The Shattan however was seen more like we see a prosecutor....one to bring out the truth rather than one who is inherently evil.

Why would the Judge create an especially grievous prison for a Prosecutor who was just doing his job...?

However, it was who Jesus clarified that Satan (English transliteration)was the originator of evil contrary to the Jewish perception.

Is there any other who is more qualified to be an expert witness than He?
Once we establish that Jesus said/clarified, does a competing Jewish "perception" remain valid in any fashion...?

 

[quietthinker]

Not that I wish to interfere with your discussion, but the above is actually a bit of an assumption. The Jews were well aware of who Satan was because he was mentioned in their scriptures very plainly in several OT texts, including 1 Chronicles 21:1 and Job 1:6-12 among others. What modern Jews might believe today is not synonymous with what they did back then. Even the Pharisees clearly believed in the Devil, otherwise they would not have accused Jesus of serving him. (Matthew 9:34; Matthew 12:24).

God bless,
- H

You might look at 2 Samuel 24:1....it records the same event as your quoted text 1 Chronicles 21:1
In 1 Chronicles 21:1 it tells us it was Satan who inspired David to number Israel where as in 2 Samuel 24:1 it tells us it was the LORD (all in caps) who inspired David to number Israel.

In 1 Samuel 16:14 it records this:- 'Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him'.

There is more to be said about this, particularly about the story of Job....it can wait.

God is consistent. We need to understand this otherwise we will hold a conflicting view of God to justify our theology.
Either our theology is wrong or God is a slippery operator......it can't be both!

 

[Yan]

(@Yan, this topic started out as a derail of another thread. We don't need to derail it, too.

Besides, it is in the Debate sub-forum, so a call to cease in our disagreement is inappropriate here.)

Oops, sorry for that I didn't noticed. Should I delete my post for you ?

 

[Sabertooth]

We do know that God has spirits in His employ that induce pain & death, but none of them are slated for "the fire created for the Devil and his angels." Such are entities of Judgment, not evil.

They include

1. The Angel of Death at Passover [Exodus 12],
2. Your aforementioned tormentor of King Saul,
3. The lying spirit to King Ahab [2 Chronicles 18]
4. "a debased mind" [Romans 1:28]
5. "the torturers" in the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant [Matthew 18:34]
6. There are many such figures in the Book of Revelation of Judgment, not evil.

Hell is going to be maintained by #5, not the Devil and demons. The latter are its first intended prisoners.
That only leaves the disparity between 1 Chronicles 21:1 & 2 Samuel 24:1.

We also know that God uses the sinful drives of Satan and enemies of Israel, unwittingly, to accomplish His purposes, but they ARE clearly slated for Judgment for their motivations.

 

[Enoch111]

The name Satan (Hebrew ha Satan) means "the Adversary". Adversary means enemy. And in this case the bitter enemy of God, Christ, and Christians. So the Jews were simply fooling themselves by trying to give Satan a pass. But the name itself settles the issue.

Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says (which view is completely false): ...so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known [meaning in OT times]. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job...He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity... Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone (I Sam. xvi. 14; I Kings xxii. 22; Isa. xlv. 7; etc.), it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism [which is total nonsense]

Because God is sovereign over Satan does not mean that Satan does not independently do evil and mischief. The Bible calls Satan and the Antichrist "the Wicked One" or "that Wicked One", who is a liar and the Father of Lies.

 

[Yan]

That would be appropriate. (I just got done deleting a lot of mine for the same reason.)

Sorry I can't do that as the OP was mentioned as debate too.

(A thread to continue this debate from another thread.)

How would you see Satan as the bright light as the order of the Eastern star. And their logo is similar with Satanic 5 star schema not as Israel's 6 star logo of David.

 

[quietthinker]

We do know that God has spirits in His employ that induce pain & death, but none of them are slated for "the fire created for the Devil and his angels." Such are entities of Judgment, not evil.

They include

1. The Angel of Death at Passover [Exodus 12],
2. Your aforementioned tormentor of King Saul,
3. The lying spirit to King Ahab [2 Chronicles 18]
4. "a debased mind" [Romans 1:28]
5. "the torturers" in the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant [Matthew 18:34]
6. There are many such figures in the Book of Revelation of Judgment, not evil.

Hell is going to be maintained by #5, not the Devil and demons. The latter are its first intended prisoners.
That only leaves the disparity between 1 Chronicles 21:1 & 2 Samuel 24:1.

We also know that God uses the sinful drives of Satan and enemies of Israel, unwittingly, to accomplish His purposes, but they ARE clearly slated for Judgment for their motivations.

...and God glories?....for all things are made for his glory.....in the eternal torment of his creatures?
This, yes, this is the very picture that Satan has tarred God with and succeeded in persuading many who claim the name of Jesus in superimposing his own malevolent designs onto God.

We have not yet understood the nature of the good news if our hearts embrace such distorted picture of God.