Which view does Zechariah 14 support? Premil or Amil?

[Red Baker]

Greetings David, give me time to go over carefully this thread and I'll get back with you. I have a lot to do today, so maybe tomorrow, or Monday.

RB

 

[PinSeeker]

As to Zechariah 14, it is mostly chronological throughout, except a few places which are referring back to something that happened earlier in time.

I see verse 1 through verse 11 being strictly chronological. I see no reason to think it isn't. Verse 2 leads to the Lord intervening on their behalf, which in turn involves His bodily coming. Where then in verse 6 we have trnsitioned into another era of time, meaning post His 2nd coming, where verses 6-11 are describing this era of time in more detail.

Then when we get to verse 12 through verse 15, it is reminding us what happened as the result of the Lord God coming, and all the saints with Him, per verse 5. Thus is meaning before the time involving verses 6-11.

And now we are at the era of time involving verses 16-19, which appears to fit during the time involving verses 6-11.

Some of what you said, in particular, your last paragraph, only makes sense if pertaining to an era of time preceding the 2nd coming recorded in verse 5. But until the 2nd coming takes place, the following can't occur in the meantime, meaning verse 12. And that verses 16-19 can't take place until verse 12 takes place first, the fact what happens to these in verse 12 doesn't happen to these per verse 16 as well. After all, it does say this---And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year

Obviously, they can't do that if verse 12 happened to them instead. Don't some of you grasp what it means, that if every one that is left of all the nations, that it means there were survivors? Would you argue, for example, an earthquake totals an entire city. It kills almost everyone in the city, yet some remain alive and eventually begin rebuilding the city. That this then equals that this earthquake killed every single person in this city since the entire city was totaled?

Of course you wouldn't argue something silly like that, so why argue something silly like that per Zechariah 14:16, that regardless that that verse indicates there are survivors that came against Jerusalem, thus Zechariah is lying to us here, and verse 12 proves it since no one could survive that? Of course no one could survive that if that is what actually happened to them. Except that is not what actually happened to these in verse 16 if they remain instead, thus not dead. After all, surely physically dead ppl are not expected to go up from year to year.

My comments above were just regarding Zechariah 14:16-19, and I stand by those comments. But on the whole of Zechariah 14, we agree more than you think, I think… . I’ll just say the following, some of which may be a repeat of things I’ve said before:

In chapter 13, Zechariah speaks of the future cleansing of God's people and the turning of a large number of Jews to Jesus as Messiah just before the last day, Zechariah describes this last day in more detail in chapter 14. Using vivid imagery, Zechariah gives us an apocalyptic vision that points us to the end of days while also alluding to realities that occur throughout the history of God's people. Yes, in other prophetic books, including Zechariah, rivers of living water depict new spiritual life and the final restoration of all creation (Ezekiel 47:1-12; Zechariah 13:1). So what is Zechariah ~ really, the Holy Spirit ~ telling us about the last day? First, it points us to a cataclysmic final battle between the enemies of God's people and the Lord and His saints. Through this war, a remnant will survive (Zechariah 14:1-2) and there will be geographic upheaval (v. 4). Moreover, just when the people of God seem to be on the verge of losing the war, the Lord and His heavenly army will intervene to save the day (v. 5). On that day, living waters will flow to the east to the Dead Sea and west to the Mediterranean Sea (v. 8). The prophet is saying that God will bring renewal to all of His people's inheritance. That this will "continue in summer as in winter" conveys to us that this life is eternal; these living waters will never fail to issue forth and do their work… and "the LORD will be king over all the earth" (v. 9). All people will recognize His full sovereignty and there will never be rebellion against Him again. This narrative continues through verse 11. Verses 12-15 are an interlude of sorts, a “backing up” in order to relate the experience in this last day of those not in Christ. And then, beginning with verse 16… what I said above holds. There’s a bit of back and forth, but it’s basically a reencapsulation of the entire church age (the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6) and the return of Christ and the final conflict (Revelation 20:7-10) and the final Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and the ushering in of the Kingdom in full and the New Heaven and New Earth, the final making new of all things (Revelation 21:1-8).

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Davidpt]

Mainly addressing Amils here, but no one in particular. It's a bit lengthy, though. Here's where I am at concerning verses 16-19 in particular.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

None of this can come to pass until the following comes to pass first. Thus, these that are left, the plague involving verse 12 never fell upon them as well, obviously.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Verse 12 can't come to pass until the time of the last 7 vials of wrath. Where at some point during or following the vials of wrath, the bodily 2nd coming of Christ occurs.

Obviously, verse 12 has not been fulfilled. Anyone that might want to argue otherwise is no one I'm going to take serious. Which then means, like I already indicated, neither has verses 16-19 been fulfilled.

That obviously places verses 16-19 post the 2nd coming. There is no way it can't be post the 2nd coming if it can't even come to pass until verse 12 is fulfilled first.

What all do these verses involve? And since they are meaning post the 2nd coming, are they meaning all throughout eternity, that it will be like described below, which I will number, keeping in mind that I asked what all do these verses involve? Or do they speak of an era of time that has a beginning and an ending?

Verses 16-19 involve some of the following.

1) every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

Can this fit all of eternity? IOW, they do this forever without end. Or does it fit an era of time that has a beginning and an ending?

2) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Can this fit all of eternity? IOW, they do this forever without end, otherwise they will punished with no rain, even billions of years from now. Or does it fit an era of time that has a beginning and an ending?

3) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

As to this, this obviously can't be meaning the same plague recorded in verse 12, yet it can be meaning the plague recorded in Revelation 20:9 though---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Amils of course are going to disagree and likely insist Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 20:9 are involving the same events, the same era of time. Except that is not reasonable, and I already explained why, the fact verse 12 can't happen until during the 7 last vials of wrath involving the 2nd coming. And that there has to be some survivors of the nations that came against Jerusalem in order to fulfill verses 16-19. And that these same survivors can be punished with no rain if they refuse to come up year to year.

Then we need to factor this in, meaning the passage I submit below, in regards to what I asked after question 1) and after question 2), pertaining to whether those things fit all of eternity, or an era of time with a beginning and an ending. Even if Amils agreed that the latter seems most likely, obviously these in verses 16-19 can't do the following in 24 hours or less---shall even go up from year to year.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Which seems more reasonable pertaining to Zechariah 14:16-19? Those verses are fulfilled before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled? Those verses are still meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled, thus those verses are involving all of eternity?

If one agrees, meaning Amils in this case, that Zechariah 14:16-19 is fulfilled before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, that obviously indicates that Amils have helped prove Premil since there is no way the following can be fulfilled in 24 hours or less---shall even go up from year to year. IOW, there have to be more days following the last day of this age in order to fulfill this---shall even go up from year to year. Keeping in mind, no way can Zechariah 14:16-19 come to pass before Zechariah 14:12 comes to pass first.

 

[Davidpt]

Neither. The words "are spirit."

One indication is: "half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." Meaning, the matter and context are much greater, as stated here from the beginning:

Genesis 1:4​

And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.​

Which sets the context of Zechariah 14 and Luke 21 as regarding all of time divided in "half" by light and darkness.

But regarding all references of time, whether a day or a thousand years, it is best reconciled as "a time, times, and half a time." This is from Daniel's prophecy (which includes no "gap"...but there's that word "half" again--by no coincidence.

• "A Time" refers to all of "time."
• "times" refers the "times" before and after Christ and the cross, meaning before and after the salvation/atonement/fix.
• "and half a time" refers to the times being "divided" in "half", the dividing of "the light from the darkness."

This is interesting, yet I don't see how it might explain the following? As to this time, times, and the dividing of time, it is connected with the number 1260. Where the math then works out like such. time + times + the dividing of time = 1260 days. 360 days(time) + 720 days(2 times time) + 180 days(time divided in half) = 1260 days.

 

[ScottA]

This is interesting, yet I don't see how it might explain the following? As to this time, times, and the dividing of time, it is connected with the number 1260. Where the math then works out like such. time + times + the dividing of time = 1260 days. 360 days(time) + 720 days(2 times time) + 180 days(time divided in half) = 1260 days.

Looking at the detail by numbers as you have above is looking at the detail alright, but away from the core meaning. In other words, each of those numbers points back or reduces (by multiplication or division), to the times rooted in the creation week time frame. Which then is elaborated upon in Daniel's prophecy again as a "week." The point being that, yes, it can be, and is, unfolded in other passages to elaborate, but refolded ends up back at 7 days, or a week. But confusion and riddles here is not meant but for the ungodly...while in the Spirit, the terms otherwise simpler and best understood in general as merely representing things of God in who is no such division or time anyway.

So God has drawn a picture and broken things down into worldly terms that don't actually apply to kingdom reality, thus are only spell out what is otherwise one matter in God. Taking His perspective then, it is a mistake to focus on each part individually, because with Him they are not separate. Example: In the passage "a time, times, and half a time", "a time" is all there really is...except that He has further broken it down. Thus, it is only going to add to confusion to separate "times" or "half a time" out and look at it unless you understand that it is only a part of something bigger that is complete without breaking it out.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not just a "split mountain", though, "you shall flee through the valley that was created", God gives certain instructions to the people who are there at the time.

I think this is "the winepress of God's wrath", that just like the Red Sea closed on the Egyptians killing them all, so to that the armies of the beast will chase them through this valley, to find themselves crushed, a river of blood flowing out for miles and miles.

Much love!

Absurd speculation.

 

[Davidpt]

My comments above were just regarding Zechariah 14:16-19, and I stand by those comments. But on the whole of Zechariah 14, we agree more than you think, I think… . I’ll just say the following, some of which may be a repeat of things I’ve said before:

As to those verses, once again, until verse 12 is fulfilled first, those verses can't come to pass in the meantime. The text indicates that there are some who the plagues per verse 12 were not poured upon as well. One can't have verses 16-19 already being applicable before verse 12 is fulfilled first. Or if one can I'm certainly not seeing how since it's not even logical that there can be some remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem before there is first judgment against these nations, verse 12 being part of that judgment.

If verses 16-19 can already be in progress before verse 12 is fulfilled first, may as well insist that the 2nd advent was already in progress before the 1st advent even took place, as an example. No one would think that or argue that though, yet, that is pretty much what one is doing with verses 16-19 id they already have that in preogress before verse 12 is fulfilled first.

Explain why the following would be wrong? BTW, the point is not what these things might look like when they are being fulfilled. The point is, what must happen first before these things can to pass?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Per this chapter, when did all the nations come against Jerusalem?

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

And what eventually happens to these battling Jerusalem? Is it not the following?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


Let's consider verses 16-19 some more.


And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

When shall this come to pass?

1) Before all nations shall come against Jerusalem

2) While all nations are still coming against Jerusalem

3) After all nations have already come against Jerusalem?

My answer is 3). And since my answer is 3), and the fact the text then states this---shall even go up from year to year---it is then unreasonable to think there is no era of time reserved post that of verse 12 in order to fulfill this.


And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

What families of the earth? Families per these, obviously---that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem. The text says--- even upon them shall be no rain. Whether meaning literal or not, that I can't tell you. All I can tell you is what the text states and when it is meaning and who it is meaning. It is meaning after verse 12 has been fulfilled. And it is meaning the families of the earth that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem.


And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

We already saw in the previous verse that if any of the families remaining of the nations which came against Jerusalem, don't come up from year to year, upon them shall be no rain. It uses the family of Egypt as an example, and it goes on to say---there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Except it can't be the same plague meant in verse 12, because of it is, how could the family of Egypt meant here, which appears to maybe be symbollic for the heathen in general, refuse or not refuse to go up post that of verse 12 if verse 12 happened to them instead?

Yet, there is another plague to consider here. IOW, one prior to the beginning of the era of time involving verses 16-19, and another one like it following the era of time involving verses 16-19.

Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth , Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them

In chapter 13, Zechariah speaks of the future cleansing of God's people and the turning of a large number of Jews to Jesus as Messiah just before the last day, Zechariah describes this last day in more detail in chapter 14. Using vivid imagery, Zechariah gives us an apocalyptic vision that points us to the end of days while also alluding to realities that occur throughout the history of God's people. Yes, in other prophetic books, including Zechariah, rivers of living water depict new spiritual life and the final restoration of all creation (Ezekiel 47:1-12; Zechariah 13:1). So what is Zechariah ~ really, the Holy Spirit ~ telling us about the last day? First, it points us to a cataclysmic final battle between the enemies of God's people and the Lord and His saints. Through this war, a remnant will survive (Zechariah 14:1-2) and there will be geographic upheaval (v. 4). Moreover, just when the people of God seem to be on the verge of losing the war, the Lord and His heavenly army will intervene to save the day (v. 5). On that day, living waters will flow to the east to the Dead Sea and west to the Mediterranean Sea (v. 8). The prophet is saying that God will bring renewal to all of His people's inheritance. That this will "continue in summer as in winter" conveys to us that this life is eternal; these living waters will never fail to issue forth and do their work… and "the LORD will be king over all the earth" (v. 9). All people will recognize His full sovereignty and there will never be rebellion against Him again. This narrative continues through verse 11. Verses 12-15 are an interlude of sorts, a “backing up” in order to relate the experience in this last day of those not in Christ. And then, beginning with verse 16… what I said above holds. There’s a bit of back and forth, but it’s basically a reencapsulation of the entire church age (the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6) and the return of Christ and the final conflict (Revelation 20:7-10) and the final Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and the ushering in of the Kingdom in full and the New Heaven and New Earth, the final making new of all things (Revelation 21:1-8).

Though, I see a lot of this making sense, thus some of it I actually agree with. Yet it's not possible that anything pertaining to verses 16-19 can be meaning before verse 12 is fulfilled first. And once again, if that can be possible, may as well say that the 2nd advent can already be in progress before the first advent is even fulfilled first. IOW, making nonsense out of crystal clear chronology of events, where it's plainly obvious that the 1st advent has to precede the 2nd one. And in the same way, it is plainly obvious that nothing pertaining to verses 16-19 can come to pass until verse 12 has been fulfilled first. So why insist verses 16-19 are already in progress before verse 12 is fulfilled first?

In my view verses 16-19 is involving verses 6-11, and that nothing pertaining to verses 6-11 is meaning before verse 12 is fulfilled.

 

[Marty fox]

One way way to try and determine that is by comparing how Premils interpret these events as opposed to how Amils interpret them. Then seeing which view is agreeing with what the text indicates, which includes events that involve chronology. For example, verse 2 as opposed to verses 16-19. Would anyone argue, chronologically speaking, that verses 16-19 can be fulfilled before verse 2 is even fulfilled first? It would be like arguing that Christ's 2nd advent can precede His 1st advent. Clearly then, when it comes to events in the Bible, especially in regards to prophetic events, chronology matters, thus is relevant.

And what do chronological events do? They lead from one thing into another, etc.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle

One thing that is already crystal clear here, none of this can be involving 70 AD. For example, compare the following.

and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

With that of this.

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Does it sound like any of that fits this---and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city

Obviously then, since Zechariah 14:2 can't logically fit 70 AD, it still has to fit somewhere, though. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, that if it can't fit 70 AD, it has to fit an era of time post 70 AD.

The question is, is verse 2 supposed to be interpreted in the literal sense to begin with? Is it involving literal Jerusalem in the middle east being literally surrounded by all nations on the planet? If we factor in verse 4, how can Jerusalem not be understood in the literal sense here? Is there a way to understand the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, in a sense that is not even literal? Do things pertaining to the non literal typically involve compass directions? Is it literally true that the mount of Olives, that it is before Jerusalem on the east?

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


What should we make of this verse, keeping in mind that chronology is relevant here. IOW, we can't have this verse meaning during a time when Jesus literally walked upon the earth prior to His death, then have verse 2 involving an era of time post his death, and that we then think that makes good sense of the text. Because, clearly, verse 4 is pertaining to verse 3 and that verse 3 is pertaining to verse 2. That's how chronology works, as in, how one event leads into another event, so on and so on.

I think I will stop here for now. There's a lot more to discuss/debate involving this chapter. But first we need to make sense of these first 4 verses before we can try and make sense of any of the verses that follow.

Did you post post #18?

 

[Davidpt]

If you read chapters 12-14 you will see many first advent events mentioned

12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on[b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

13:7 “Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!”
declares the Lord Almighty.
“Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.


13:1“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

You will also read that it repeatedly states "in that day" throughout those chapters. So is "in that day" during the first advent and century or does it include the last 2000 years?

You will also see that it says "in that day" Jerusalem will be surrounded and destroyed.

It also says "in that day" Jerusalem will be surrounded but God will protect it and it will be an unmovable rock.

So once again when exactually is "in that day?

The only way that it makes sense about Jerusalem is if one is the literal city which was destroyed and the other in the New Jerusalem the church which was born in the first century in that day.

Weather what you believe the "in that day" includes the first century.

In my view, in that day is simply involving an era of time. Where that can mean it begins with His first advent and continues with His 2nd advent and beyond even. These things still happen in that day, the era of time meant. This is when discernment is important, so that one can maybe discern where we are in the timeline of events.

Let's look at in that day in ch 14.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.


What we need to do first is this. Divide this chapter into the following 3 sections.

1) prior to the 2nd coming

2) during the 2nd coming

3) after the 2nd coming


As to verse 4 that appears to fit 2). Which is further proved by verse 5---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Which then can be compared with the NT per the following---Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him(Jude 1:14-15)

As to verse 6, 8, and 9, that appears to fit 3). After all, are not those verses meaning after the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee?

As to verse 13, that appears to be involving 1) which then leads to 2) eventually.

As to the verse 21, that appears to be involving 3). Notice what it says---In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD

Compare that with this---

Zechariah 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Obviously then, though both say in that day, the same era of time can't be meant, if one account, pertaining to horses, has God smiting every horse with astonishment, while the other account has---there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD. And so what if literal horses are not meant? That's beside the point. The point is, what is depicted in Zechariah 12:4 is not the same as what is depicted in Zechariah 14:20

 

[Davidpt]

Did you post post #18?

You or me or maybe even both of us must have ESP or something. Before you even posted this I was already in the process of finally getting around to trying to address post #18, where I then did that per the post preceding this one.

 

[Marty fox]

In my view, in that day is simply involving an era of time. Where that can mean it begins with His first advent and continues with His 2nd advent and beyond even. These things still happen in that day, the era of time meant. This is when discernment is important, so that one can maybe discern where we are in the timeline of events.

Let's look at in that day in ch 14.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zechariah 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Zechariah 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.


What we need to do first is this. Divide this chapter into the following 3 sections.

1) prior to the 2nd coming

2) during the 2nd coming

3) after the 2nd coming


As to verse 4 that appears to fit 2). Which is further proved by verse 5---and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Which then can be compared with the NT per the following---Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him(Jude 1:14-15)

As to verse 6, 8, and 9, that appears to fit 3). After all, are not those verses meaning after the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee?

As to verse 13, that appears to be involving 1) which then leads to 2) eventually.

As to the verse 21, that appears to be involving 3). Notice what it says---In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD

Compare that with this---

Zechariah 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Obviously then, though both say in that day, the same era of time can't be meant, if one account, pertaining to horses, has God smiting every horse with astonishment, while the other account has---there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD. And so what if literal horses are not meant? That's beside the point. The point is, what is depicted in Zechariah 12:4 is not the same as what is depicted in Zechariah 14:20

My view is that the “in that day” is talking about Jesus ushering in the New Covenant which happened in the first advent

 

[3 Resurrections]

One thing that is already crystal clear here, none of this can be involving 70 AD. For example, compare the following.

and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

With that of this.

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

All of these compared texts involved the process of Jerusalem being taken down in the period from AD 66-70 of the Roman / Jewish war. The warning which Christ gave in Luke 21:20 for His disciples to flee from Judaea and from Jerusalem to the mountains was fulfilled in AD 66. This is when Cestius Gallus first came against the Zealot armies at Jerusalem. After the Zealots armies left Jerusalem to give chase to Gallus's retreating Roman army, any saints inside Jerusalem had the brief opportunity over a couple of days in which to flee the city before the returning victorious Zealot forces locked the gates of the city, allowing no one to leave.

If we compare the casualty lists in Judea for this AD 66-70 period with the census taken in Jerusalem at Passover in AD 66 before the war began, there was roughly 1-1/4 million people who must have heeded Christ's warning to avoid being locked down in Jerusalem, and who fled Judea and Jerusalem to wait out the war elsewhere.

By the close of AD 70, as Zechariah 12-14 had foretold, the besieged city was taken, the houses rifled, the women ravished, and half of Jerusalem's remaining inhabitants in the city were taken captive by the Romans to either serve as slaves, be killed in Roman theaters, or march in the Roman triumph. These were the ones "taken", and the rest were "left" - to die of starvation or disease.

All of Zechariah's stipulated "In that day" conditions of this Zechariah 12-14 prophecy for Jerusalem and Judea were fulfilled in the AD 66-70 period. ALL of them.

 

[Marty fox]

All of these compared texts involved the process of Jerusalem being taken down in the period from AD 66-70 of the Roman / Jewish war. The warning which Christ gave in Luke 21:20 for His disciples to flee from Judaea and from Jerusalem to the mountains was fulfilled in AD 66. This is when Cestius Gallus first came against the Zealot armies at Jerusalem. After the Zealots armies left Jerusalem to give chase to Gallus's retreating Roman army, any saints inside Jerusalem had the brief opportunity over a couple of days in which to flee the city before the returning victorious Zealot forces locked the gates of the city, allowing no one to leave.

If we compare the casualty lists in Judea for this AD 66-70 period with the census taken in Jerusalem at Passover in AD 66 before the war began, there was roughly 1-1/4 million people who must have heeded Christ's warning to avoid being locked down in Jerusalem, and who fled Judea and Jerusalem to wait out the war elsewhere.

By the close of AD 70, as Zechariah 12-14 had foretold, the besieged city was taken, the houses rifled, the women ravished, and half of Jerusalem's remaining inhabitants in the city were taken captive by the Romans to either serve as slaves, be killed in Roman theaters, or march in the Roman triumph. These were the ones "taken", and the rest were "left" - to die of starvation or disease.

All of Zechariah's stipulated "In that day" conditions of this Zechariah 12-14 prophecy for Jerusalem and Judea were fulfilled in the AD 66-70 period. ALL of them.

Yes amen and the warning in Matthew 24 to pray that it doesn’t happen on the sabbath was because the city gates were locked on the sabbath

 

[3 Resurrections]

Yes amen and the warning in Matthew 24 to pray that it doesn’t happen on the sabbath was because the city gates were locked on the sabbath

Yes, this also tells us that we are dealing with a period in Israel's history when the Sabbath rules of locking the gates of the city were still in operation in Jerusalem. The prayer also included that this flight be "not in the winter". Fortunately, this AD 66 flight from Judea and Jerusalem happened in October - just before the winter rainy season in Judea began. It's almost like Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen in advance...

 

[3 Resurrections]

Zechariah 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

Obviously then, though both say in that day, the same era of time can't be meant, if one account, pertaining to horses, has God smiting every horse with astonishment, while the other account has---there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD. And so what if literal horses are not meant? That's beside the point. The point is, what is depicted in Zechariah 12:4 is not the same as what is depicted in Zechariah 14:20

The Zechariah 12:4 set of horses is discussing Old Jerusalem of the first century in the process of being judged.
The Zechariah 14:20 set of horses is discussing the NEW JERUSALEM conditions of blessing in the history "from year to year" after Old Jerusalem's destruction. We are still currently living under the blessing of those New Jerusalem conditions.

Two different things, yes, but involving the same time period when the dead, obsolete elements of Old Jerusalem were passing away, leaving the New Jerusalem in place without a rival.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Since it is not clear to me that a "split mountain" is to be taken literally, I would have to look at the rest of the language and the rest of the context to see if it requires a literal application. Is this a literal history being referred to, or an imaginative, figurative history of something eternal?

Since Jerusalem is situated next to a seismic fault line, this was a quite literal earthquake predicted which would break apart the crest of the Mount of Olives at Christ's second coming return, with the resulting rubble falling downhill in all directions - north, south, east, and west.

The language of Zechariah 14:4-5 is not describing something like a meat cleaver splitting the Mount of Olives all the way to its base. If you read the Zech. 14:4-5 account in the LXX, no one at all "flees" through a newly-created valley when this earthquake happens. The language says that the valley will be "blocked up as far as Azal", just like it had done in Uzziah's day. Nobody in Uzziah's day "fled" through a newly-created valley. The rubble caused by the earthquakes on both occasions fell and would fall downhill and block up the Kidron Valley as far as Azal (a point past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem's walls known as the "Wadi Yasul" on today's maps.)

Now, according to archaeological digs that have been done in the Kidron Valley, there is a layer of rubble which has raised the bed of the Kidron Valley some 40' higher than in the first century, and which has pushed that bed of the Kidron Valley some 70' further away from the walls of Jerusalem than it was before. In other words, the Mount of Olives' profile today is not what it once was back in the first century in Christ's days. This tells me that Christ returned and left that layer of earthquake landslide rubble as His second coming "calling card" lying in the Kidron Valley as proof that He came and left that location as promised - and before some He had spoken to in that first-century generation had died.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Since Jerusalem is situated next to a seismic fault line, this was a quite literal earthquake predicted which would break apart the crest of the Mount of Olives at Christ's second coming return, with the resulting rubble falling downhill in all directions - north, south, east, and west.

The language of Zechariah 14:4-5 is not describing something like a meat cleaver splitting the Mount of Olives all the way to its base. If you read the Zech. 14:4-5 account in the LXX, no one at all "flees" through a newly-created valley when this earthquake happens. The language says that the valley will be "blocked up as far as Azal", just like it had done in Uzziah's day. Nobody in Uzziah's day "fled" through a newly-created valley. The rubble caused by the earthquakes on both occasions fell and would fall downhill and block up the Kidron Valley as far as Azal (a point past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem's walls known as the "Wadi Yasul" on today's maps.)

Now, according to archaeological digs that have been done in the Kidron Valley, there is a layer of rubble which has raised the bed of the Kidron Valley some 40' higher than in the first century, and which has pushed that bed of the Kidron Valley some 70' further away from the walls of Jerusalem than it was before. In other words, the Mount of Olives' profile today is not what it once was back in the first century in Christ's days. This tells me that Christ returned and left that layer of earthquake landslide rubble as His second coming "calling card" lying in the Kidron Valley as proof that He came and left that location as promised - and before some He had spoken to in that first-century generation had died.

I get your point about not fleeing *via the valley.* However, I don't get your point about Christ's *2nd Coming* having already happened? Nobody but full Preterists believe that, right?

 

[Davidpt]

All of Zechariah's stipulated "In that day" conditions of this Zechariah 12-14 prophecy for Jerusalem and Judea were fulfilled in the AD 66-70 period. ALL of them.

Pertaining to Christ, there are 2 advents seperated by an ascension. Some of Zechariah already focused on His first advent, for example, Zechariah 9:9. But when we get to Zechariah 14, the focus then shifts to the latter part of His ascension, then His 2nd advent, then what follows His returning to the earth, meaning verses 6-11 and 16-21. I don't know what it is about some interpreters? They don't deny that there are 2 advents separated by an ascension, yet act as if God didn't even know at the time when He spoke through His prophets, that there would be 2 advents, not just one, and that there would be an ascension separating the two, therefore, none of the prophets in the OT bothered to mention anything that might involve the 2nd advent and what all happens after that.

IMO, the correct way to understand 'in that day', not only in the book of Zechariah, but also in the book of Isaiah, is like such. It is involving His first advent, His ascension, His 2nd advent, then the millennium and what all follows that.

It's pretty clear to me, per this---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one(Zechariah 14:9)---that it is a result of this happening first---And the seventh angel sounded...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever(Revelation 11:15)

Which then makes sense out of Zechariah 14:16-19 and why these survivors are under His strict rule now. Which also makes sense of the following as well...for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest(Revelation 15:4). And take note of what is not happening initially in Zechariah 14, this---all nations shall come and worship before thee. Not until after verse 12 has been fulfilled first. Then God starts causing this to literally come to pass---for all nations shall come and worship before thee--thus verses 16-19. But not before the vials of wrath are poured out first. And not before the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, but after these things.

To place any of these events in Zechariah 14 in the first century involving 70 AD is just not reasonable. It just can't fit, the fact some of Zechariah 14 is involving the time of the vials of wrath, and that these vials of wrath are future still. I know, I know, no, the vials of wrath are not future still, they were already poured out in the first century. I may have born at night, but I wasn't born last night. So you might be better off finding someone that was actually born last night. Maybe they will believe you, in the event you insist the vials of wrath were already poured out in the first century.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I get your point about not fleeing *via the valley.* However, I don't get your point about Christ's *2nd Coming* having already happened? Nobody but full Preterists believe that, right?

No, the Full Preterists vehemently deny that Christ intended to bodily return to the Mount of Olives. They flatly deny any bodily resurrection whatever, and the main proponents of Full Preterism also deny that Christ Jesus still retains today His glorified resurrected body that left the planet back in Acts 1. I'm saying that Christ did bodily return, just as He promised - exactly when and where He and the prophets said He would bodily return, and also leave from there to return to heaven with the bodily-resurrected saints.

You and I have not missed out. We are waiting on His next coming return with a third bodily resurrection event.

 

[3 Resurrections]

therefore, none of the prophets in the OT bothered to mention anything that might involve the 2nd advent and what all happens after that.

Errrr, not true. Peter said that all the prophets, as many as had spoken, had ALL foretold something about those last days in which Peter was living concerning "the restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21-24) . The prophets knew that what they were writing was not about themselves, but about a generation to come related to Christ's sufferings and the glories that would follow afterward (1 Peter 1:11).

Moses knew about the last days, and taught the Israelites the "song of Moses" concerning the end of their own nation in their "latter end".
Daniel foretold the very precise date of the resurrection in AD 70 - namely the 1,335th day in which he would also share the blessing of that resurrection event.
And this Zechariah 12-14 prophecy gave a painful description of the death throes of Old Jerusalem, and the "year to year" blessing of the New Jerusalem realities which we currently enjoy today. And this blessing was AFTER Christ's ancient second coming return prophesied in Zech. 12-14:15, when Jerusalem and Judea would be under siege starting in AD 66.

Maybe they will believe you, in the event you insist the vials of wrath were already poured out in the first century.

They were. All of them. John wrote that all those predictions describing things that were "about to be" were "at hand" for his own generation (Rev. 1:3, 22:10). When God describes an "at hand" prophecy (in Ezekiel 12:21-28), He means that the events will take place "in YOUR days" for the ones first hearing that prophecy. An "at hand" prophecy is not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". For an "at hand" prophecy, God will both "say the word" and also "perform it" in the same time frame that the prophecy is first given.

You should be relieved that the nation of Israel took the brunt of these 7 vials of judgment in those "days of vengeance", and that these vials are not hanging over your own head. The first-century generation of Israel was the one for whom the judgments of the "song of Moses" were intended in their "latter end" (Deuteronomy 32). This is why the "song of Moses" was being sung in Revelation 15:3, immediately before the seven angels poured out their seven vials upon the land in Revelation 16. Israel's "latter end" was happening at that point. As Daniel 12:7 once wrote, God was going to "shatter the power of the holy people" in that period of "time, times, and half a time" - from AD 66-70.