Who’s interpretation is true?

[Angelina]

strange?! I do not understand however, I think that it is probably better that I do not....

 

[Angelina]

Where are these scriptures found and have they been debated over by biblical scholars?

 

[bbyrd009]

...
...and where is this place where there is no heaven or hell found in scripture? Is this before Christ's death and resurrection or after???

"The kingdom of heaven is within you" or "beside you." Samuel's ("accepted by God") declaration to Saul ("rejected by God") through the Witch of Endor, that they would both be where Samuel already was. Heaven and hell are very real, ok, the intent here is not to discredit them as concepts, but as physical places with literal crowns or thrones or flames. Meshak, Shadrak, and Abed-nego might also be considered; they appear as comfortable as Samuel was while in the "furnace," at least to me.

 

[bbyrd009]

where in scripture is this idol worship of Jesus found?

Nehushtan is introduced in the Wanderings as the Snake on a Pole that the Wanderers looked to to relieve them of snakebite, Numbers 21:8, and not mentioned again until 2 Kings 18:4, where it is "broken up" by the priest of God. One has to bring their own understanding of Christ's comments about Snakes on Poles to this--which are hardly complementary, in a certain light--or understand what is meant by "Jesus cult," which does not seek to undermine faith in Christ by any means, so i have included a link @ Nehushtan there for other perspectives.

 

[Angelina]

"The kingdom of heaven is within you" or "beside you." Samuel's ("accepted by God") declaration to Saul ("rejected by God") through the Witch of Endor, that they would both be where Samuel already was. Heaven and hell are very real, ok, the intent here is not to discredit them as concepts, but as physical places with literal crowns or thrones or flames. Meshak, Shadrak, and Abed-nego might also be considered; they appear as comfortable as Samuel was while in the "furnace," at least to me.

Well heaven and hell cannot be physical places because one has to be in spiritual form [without a body] to enter it. Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven and I assume the same applies to hell but our soul can...Take a look at 1 Peter 3:18-20. Those folks who disobeyed God during the days of Noah, Jesus was there proclaiming to them his death and Resurrection....I believe these places are very real to our soul as is spoken in Matthew 10:28.

 

[amadeus]

You're saying the bible cannot be understood...

Without God's help, I believe, it cannot be.

He does provide help, but few people continue to ask help for more after they have received a certain amount. The certain amount is not the same for everyone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Without God's help, I believe, it cannot be.

He does provide help, but few people continue to ask help for more after they have received a certain amount. The certain amount is not the same for everyone.

Right.
But we're speaking on here to persons who know God.
I think, at least.

 

[amadeus]

Right.
But we're speaking on here to persons who know God.
I think, at least.

Knowing God better is something else again. We are to grow and we should continue to do so until the end of our course. No one but God knows all that there is in Him and in the Bible for us. The limit on how much we get up to us even as the limit on how much we get from God is up to us.

There is no limit on God's side, but if we stop pursuing Him, how can we move closer and how can we get more?

 

[OzSpen]

Oh btw there is salvation by faith [with the Holy Spirit indwelling as a guarantee of that salvation]...and then there is the actual salvation which happens when we have been actually redeemed by Christ when he comes again or when we pass from this life to eternal life...which ever comes first.

Angelina,

That's not what John 3:36 states, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life". "Has" is Greek present tense, meaning one has continuous eternal life from the moment one believes. Actual salvation is received in the here and now and continues beyond death or to Christ's second coming and beyond. See: What is eternal life? (Got Questions?)

When Jesus' comes again, our bodies will be resurrected from the grave and go to our final destination.

Oz

 

[Angelina]

Angelina,

That's not what John 3:36 states, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life". "Has" is Greek present tense, meaning one has continuous eternal life from the moment one believes. Actual salvation is received in the here and now and continues beyond death or to Christ's second coming and beyond. See: What is eternal life? (Got Questions?)

When Jesus' comes again, our bodies will be resurrected from the grave and go to our final destination.

Oz

I'm sure you understand what I was saying in the above post. Without having to go into full detail. However, please feel free to correct...

 

[Angelina]

Nehushtan is introduced in the Wanderings as the Snake on a Pole that the Wanderers looked to to relieve them of snakebite, Numbers 21:8, and not mentioned again until 2 Kings 18:4, where it is "broken up" by the priest of God. One has to bring their own understanding of Christ's comments about Snakes on Poles to this--which are hardly complementary, in a certain light--or understand what is meant by "Jesus cult," which does not seek to undermine faith in Christ by any means, so i have included a link @ Nehushtan there for other perspectives.

I did a google search on the word "Nehushtan" and kinda understand the concept. Spurgeon has a interesting sermon about it in one of his archives called Mystery of the Brazen Serpent. A good read ~
The Mysteries of the Brazen Serpent

 

[GodsGrace]

is it sprinkling, or raining? A or notA, and you have to decide.

LOL
What's the problem?
You're just proving my pov!
No matter WHAT the children think or believe, outside it IS wet!
And THAT is the TRUTH.

We could take it even a step further...:
Sprinkling, taken literally and not as a mommy's term for rain,
means it's only slightly raining.

Raining, means it's coming down harder -- MORE than a sprinkle.
Someone smarter than these children, for instance a CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIAN, would be able to determine if the wet is a sprinkle or a rain.

Nuff said.

 

[GodsGrace]

lol, i'm following the pope at the moment, but i am not relying on the pope as my intermediary between me and Christ, so understand the point. Obviously many Catholics follow the pope, and look to him as their spiritual king, similar to a Protestant following a pastor or preacher, and pedestalizing them, or even worship Jesus as a Snake on a Pole, a "Jesus cult" this is also called.

Agreed.
But some Catholics I know don't even like this Pope.
I think all born again persons are following Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

not at all, what i am doing is recognizing the fluid nature of Scripture, that defining a passage to one interpretation destroys, because if the interpretation is defined, then any other interpretation becomes disallowed, one cannot even consider it, because "they already have the interpretation."

So then for example when one becomes convinced that the Abomination of Desolation must have occurred in 70ad, they become blind to any other interpretation in defense of their own, the same as with guessing who the Two Witnesses are, etc., like maybe the Bible needs a little help from us or something, they just weren't sharp enough to identify the witnesses for us, or forgot to lol. Or maybe they were scared of Nero or something.

I see what you mean.
But some verses CAN have, legitimately, different meanings which could be explained.
I like to refer to John 3:5.
Does the water refer to Baptism or Natural Childbirth?
A case could be made for either by persons with initials after their names.

But some verses cannot have more than one meaning, unless we twist what the verse says:
John 14:15

The only way to get around John 14:15 is to twist what is plainly says.

So, you could not apply your theory to ALL verses, only some, and they aren't many...and do not refer to salvation. Salvation verses are very plain.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did a google search on the word "Nehushtan" and kinda understand the concept. Spurgeon has a interesting sermon about it in one of his archives called Mystery of the Brazen Serpent. A good read ~
The Mysteries of the Brazen Serpent

What concept?
Could you narrow it down for those of us who cannot read that entire link...?

 

[bbyrd009]

I did a google search on the word "Nehushtan" and kinda understand the concept. Spurgeon has a interesting sermon about it in one of his archives called Mystery of the Brazen Serpent. A good read ~
The Mysteries of the Brazen Serpent

ok, good enough for a start, but see that Nehushtan is never mentioned, and note the difference in attitude of the wanderers v a seeker after Christ, not mentioned here, "II. And now comes THE REMEDY. The remedy of the bitten Israelites was a brazen serpent; and the remedy for sinners is Christ crucified."

So, i don't want to critique his sermon, but this is for...there are more rungs on the ladder, ok? Because the state of heart is not being examined, and seekers are now being compared to revolters, see, to make a valid enough point, don't get me wrong, but it is a sermon for those still searching for the Foundation, so to speak.

i can sense that this is not satisfying, so another way to perceive it perhaps is that the remedy is def Christ crucified, but the sense of irony available in Jesus statement, "The Son of Man must be lifted up like a snake..." has been ignored, as has the end of the Snake, Nehushtan, in Kings. So, a great sermon for the intended audience, perhaps, the lost iow, but it is pablum to meat in a sense too.

"Come risk it"
"Come thou and try it."
etc

 

[bbyrd009]

LOL
What's the problem?
You're just proving my pov!
No matter WHAT the children think or believe, outside it IS wet!
And THAT is the TRUTH.

if you wish to completely disregard what the children think or believe, then of course, yes. I think we have already made plain that absolute truth does exist, and i have even agreed--the absolute truth, however, is "God," and the point i wish to make is that we cannot reduce it any further, although we are assured by logic that we can.

2+2=4 ok, that is an "absolute truth."

Someone smarter than these children, for instance a CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIAN, would be able to determine if the wet is a sprinkle or a rain.

see how you assume that the theologian has access to the rain, and not just the description (Scripture, in this analogy) though. So, just like the "No matter WHAT" scenario, you have removed an essential element to get to where you are at that point. See that i am not saying that you are "wrong" here, ok. The outside is wet regardless, that is an absolute truth--for someone else though, it cannot be for you, right--but the whole point here is "what the children think."

 

[bbyrd009]

Someone smarter than these children, for instance a CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIAN, would be able to determine if the wet is a sprinkle or a rain.

so tell me then, with the info available to you right now--which mirrors our reality iow--was it sprinkling or raining?
tell me the "absolute truth," if you know it.

"Tell Me, if you know..." ha, sound fam to anyone?

 

[bbyrd009]

Agreed.
But some Catholics I know don't even like this Pope.

well, i'm sure that is always true anyway, and i don't wish to comment on them other than to say that a king is within his rights to have you killed for going about that the wrong way.

I think all born again persons are following Jesus.

i am sure, yes, that all two or three of them are.

 

[bbyrd009]

Does the water refer to Baptism or Natural Childbirth?

yes. Imo childbirth is a baptism, so it becomes a semantics discussion.