Who are the “other sheep” of John 10:16? (For Jehovah's Witnesses)

[Aunty Jane]

Ah, so God didn't know, He was totally taken off guard. He had no idea that in creating free-will, it could be abused? Not much of a God you have there. You see, my Jehovah knows it all. It's a thought-out plan, because no matter how many times He could create or even re-create the world of mankind, sin was always at the door, and how would He deal with it? He couldn't stop it! So, he let it play out, but He was always in control.

It amuses me to no end when you put words in my mouth and then argue with your misrepresentation of what I said.....the humans chose to side with the devil, so Jehovah allowed them to serve the god that they chose.....and in the process would show humankind as well as his angelic sons, what results from independence from their Creator. It was an object lesson that will go down in the annals of time, creating precedents that will form the basis of God’s dealings with all intelligent creation, forever. Yes, God is always in control......but his actions are always reactions to what his free wiled ‘children’ have chosen to do.

But he knew that "contingency plan" before it even happened, because that's what any architect does when he creates. He counts the cost, he tests everything. He doesn't just create and then thinks to himself, "alright, let's see how this goes."

Of course he would respond to their choices and he always knew how he would handle any situation before it arose. That does not alter the fact that he allowed free will to be exercised before he acted and it was always in accord with his stated purpose.

You wanna play Scripture?

Every one of those verses could have the word “purpose” replace the word “plan” and they would still mean the same thing.

"Free will makes a plan impossible"? Really? How so?

If God “plans” their actions, then free will is a cruel deception....is God a deceiver? I thought that description applied to the adversary....?
If God planned for the devil to sin, and then to influence the humans to follow him.....and God knew the pain and suffering that would follow....what kind of loving God would plan that deliberately?

If your child had a terminal illness and you had to watch them suffer till they died an awful death, although you had to admire their courage and the way they dealt with their situation as it built their character and showed immense courage and determination......would you plan to give your child that disease, just so that they could develop those qualities? Tell me what parent would....?

Going a different route is an alteration.

It’s not at all if that different route takes you to the same destination. If you have a rendezvous with someone to meet at a certain time and place, but a storm has washed away the road on the planned route, wouldn’t you find a map telling you an alternative route so that you still get there to meet them?
If we would, why can’t Jehovah?

 

[Aunty Jane]

And that my dear is the whole purpose of why God permits evil, and when you understand that, you'll understand why God has a Plan.

I believe that you misunderstand God’s purpose in permitting evil.....you see, he never planned for it to happen. The one thing he wanted to withhold from his children was "a knowledge of good and evil"...he would decide what was good and only allow good things to enter their lives, but they had to choose not to know it because of free will......and because free will is free for all of us to use or misuse, God used the abuse of it to teach us about consequences, which all the rebels knew in advance.

Allowing it is not the same as planning it. If God planned for the devil and humans to sin...then that’s some God you have there....

Genesis 6:6 says that “Jehovah regretted that he had made men on the earth, and his heart was saddened.” (NWT) And, in response, God determined to destroy all life on the earth. Now, it would be easy to read this and see a God who was caught off guard by how sinful humanity had become. A God who became so angry that he decided to wipe out the whole mess and start over again. But it is hard to reconcile that with a God who is omniscient, who knows the future

Again you can’t see past the obvious....as these things that transpired on earth involved the outworking of God’s purpose, that did not include the fact that demons were now interfering in a large way to show how quickly man would descend into a level of wickedness that would alter things drastically. Jehovah didn’t just “wipe out the whole mess and start again” because he was “caught off guard”......the flood did not alter God’s purpose at all....but allowing mankind to be influenced by the Nephilim and their demonic fathers would have ruined everything. In dealing with that situation as he did, precedents were again created. And those demons were sent back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them......but he hadn’t finished with them just yet.
The situation in Noah’s day and other judgment periods, formed a pictorial pattern of things to come. (Matt 24:37-39; 2 Peter 32:4-6)

All that transpired in connection with God’s purpose was carefully maintained, but also allowing free will to go where it needed to, in order for that purpose to be carried out.

A God who had chosen Christ as our atoning sacrifice before the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20).

The “foundation of the world” was of course, not the creation of the earth, but the founding of sinful mankind descended from Adam and his wife. There was no need for a savior before they chose to disobey.
Jesus being sent as redeemer was a solution to a problem created by the rebels......not something planned from the time of creation.

The word translated as “regretted” in Genesis 6:6 could also be translated as “be grieved.” And that seems to be to better fit here. This is an emotional response from the creator over what his creation has become. Even though he knew it would come to this, it was still destressing to him. God is not an impersonal force or entity with no feelings for his creation. Rather, he is intimately involved with his creation. We see him expressing delight in what he has done. And disappointment in what we have done with his creation.

And where have I ever stated otherwise? How could he not be disappointed when he had determined in advance that an idyllic life in paradise forever was there within their reach.....obedience to one small command that imposed no hardship whatsoever, was all that was needed to show their Creator that they respected his property and appreciated all he had given them....we were robbed of that life (but only temporarily). The detour created by their decisions, would bring us back to the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11)

Israel's rebellion is a result of sin, just as Adam and Eve rebelled and they were perfect, how much so from imperfect beings?

What was the devil’s rebellion the result of? He too was a once perfect angel. Ezekiel tells us that he was magnificent, and was carried away by his own beauty, which then fostered a vanity which caused him to want to be “like God” and gain the worship from lower creatures who were new on the scene.

Ezekiel 28:11-19, in a thinly disguised dirge concerning the king of Tyre, (who was emulating the traits of the devil) God addressed his adversary in very specific terms that could only apply to satan. The king of Tyre was not a “covering cherub” in the garden of Eden.
This also tells us why he was there in the garden, as cherubs have a guardianship role. So the position of trust he was given was abused as a result of the wrong use of free will. We saw where that led....we are living in the results of that change of rulership. God handed the now defective human race over to the god they had chosen. (Luke 4:5-7)

Why did Eve sin, and why did satan target her specifically?
He was actually using her as bait to influence her husband, (emotional blackmail is part of the devil’s armoury). If he can get to us emotionally, he’s got fertile ground to play with. God’s emotions are controlled by his vast knowledge and wisdom, and they are expressed in his actions. Justice has no emotions, but it can be tempered with mercy if it is merited.

Jehovah showed no compassion for the reasons why they broke his law even though excuses were offered, each blamed someone else.....IOW there were no grounds upon which to forgive either of them for their sin. Each sinned in a different way and for a different reason....the devil played his hand...and won. (for now)

Perfect beings do not make mistakes...only imperfect ones do. So in accord with their actions, (not what caused them) God acted immediately to evict the pair from their paradise home to the harsh and untamed world outside. Not only that, but he also cursed the ground upon which they would now toil for their food. What a contrast ! From an orchard of delicious fruit....to cultivating cursed ground to grow enough grain to make “bread”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes he did.

In saying that God planned everything that happened, you are portraying him as a cruel dictator who showed no compassion for his children, deliberately sentencing them to a life of suffering, pain and death just so that he could say “I told you so”. Really?

Allowing what happened to play out for the greater good, is not the same as planning it. Do don’t seem to understand the implications of what that difference meant.

God has a Plan, and whatever doesn't conform to that Plan is done away with. There are prophecies set out in Scriptures, they were to begin and end at a certain time. God's time, was that God's purpose or did He plan it that way? I believe the latter.

God’s foreknowledge allows him to predict what will take place with great accuracy, because he knows from the beginning how it will all end up. But in reacting to the choices of his heavenly and earthly children, Jehovah allows them to exercise their free will by alerting them to the consequences of their actions and choices in advance. Was it a mistake to give them that ability? Or was it a gift precious enough to allow them to test it out? What will be the end result?

In the big picture, from Genesis to Revelation, God has been allowing all that he created in the 6 days of creation to play out on the 7th day, which has not yet ended. By still being in the 7th day of God’s resting (only from his creative works) we see that all abuses of free will have had devastating consequences and in every case the results have gone on record and the way God dealt with them have been successful in the precedents created. Because all these things have been brought to the surface and dealt with appropriately, there is nothing standing in the way of God now cleansing this earth in much the same way as he did in Noah’s day, and starting afresh with those who have proven that Jehovah is their God, not satan.

After the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect, the son will hand the reins back to the one who was supposed to be our Sovereign ruler all along.....after one final test of all redeemed and perfected mankind, the human race will finally be able to enjoy the life God intended for us to live......forever in paradise on earth as caretakers of this beautiful earth, it’s many creatures, and each other in love and appreciation for all that God has done to ensure that no rebel will ever raise themselves up again.

Free will is maintained as the gift it was meant to be, and the lake of fire remains to be the place any future rebel will end up if they ever want to challenge God Sovereign right to set limits on how “free” their will can be.

 

[RR144]

If God “plans” their actions, then free will is a cruel deception....is God a deceiver? I thought that description applied to the adversary....?
If God planned for the devil to sin, and then to influence the humans to follow him.....and God knew the pain and suffering that would follow....what kind of loving God would plan that deliberately?

Let me ask you this question: Why didn't God destroy Satan on the spot? Why didn't he Adam and Eve die on the spot? Why didn't God just start over?

If your child had a terminal illness and you had to watch them suffer till they died an awful death, although you had to admire their courage and the way they dealt with their situation as it built their character and showed immense courage and determination......would you plan to give your child that disease, just so that they could develop those qualities? Tell me what parent would....?

Isn't that what JW's do over blood transfusions?

It’s not at all if that different route takes you to the same destination. If you have a rendezvous with someone to meet at a certain time and place, but a storm has washed away the road on the planned route, wouldn’t you find a map telling you an alternative route so that you still get there to meet them?
If we would, why can’t Jehovah?

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord." - Isaiah 55:8

 

[RR144]

In saying that God planned everything that happened, you are portraying him as a cruel dictator who showed no compassion for his children, deliberately sentencing them to a life of suffering, pain and death just so that he could say “I told you so”. Really?

Allowing what happened to play out for the greater good, is not the same as planning it. Do don’t seem to understand the implications of what that difference meant.

So again, I ask, why didn't God just destroy Satan for his rebellion and allow Adam and Eve to die right then? Wouldn't it be just as cruel to allow them to bring sin, death and suffering in the world? Why not start over until He got it right?

God’s foreknowledge allows him to predict what will take place with great accuracy, because he knows from the beginning how it will all end up. But in reacting to the choices of his heavenly and earthly children, Jehovah allows them to exercise their free will by alerting them to the consequences of their actions and choices in advance. Was it a mistake to give them that ability? Or was it a gift precious enough to allow them to test it out? What will be the end result?

So when God chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) was that a plan or a purpose? He didn't know that they would fail? That they would reject Jesus as the Messiah? Despite the fact that there are Old Testament prophecies that indicate that they would do so? Was Judas' free-will interfered with when he fulfilled the prophecy of betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver? NO, God sets out a plan. He decided ahead of time, that disobedience of His law would bring consequences to the human race. That resulted in sin and death. When he told Eve about her seed, was that planned? Or was it a purpose that would take some 4,000 years before it would be fulfilled when Jesus came on the scene?

After the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect, the son will hand the reins back to the one who was supposed to be our Sovereign ruler all along.....

Actually, had Adam and Eve not sinned, there would be no need for Christ to be Sovereign ruler.

after one final test of all redeemed and perfected mankind, the human race will finally be able to enjoy the life God intended for us to live......forever in paradise on earth as caretakers of this beautiful earth, it’s many creatures, and each other in love and appreciation for all that God has done to ensure that no rebel will ever raise themselves up again.

Free will is maintained as the gift it was meant to be, and the lake of fire remains to be the place any future rebel will end up if they ever want to challenge God Sovereign right to set limits on how “free” their will can be.

On That we agree.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Let me ask you this question: Why didn't God destroy Satan on the spot? Why didn't he Adam and Eve die on the spot? Why didn't God just start over?

It’s a great question, and one I asked at the very beginning of my spiritual journey....
Free will is again at the base of the answer. If God simply executed the rebels and started again, what was to prevent another “satan” from challenging God’s Sovereignty on the grounds that the original satan was never given an opportunity to prove that God was a mean spirited father to his children, holding back something to which they were entitled?....was God a liar? Would the humans be better off deciding for themselves what was good and what was evil? Look around you at today’s world and see that humans have substituted good for bad and bad for good, just as Jehovah knew they would.

When you see in creation the immense good demonstrated by a loving Creator, we understand that all things in creation are perfectly balanced.....for everything there is an equal opposite......good and evil are opposites, but why did God want to withhold that knowledge and keep it to himself?.....the magnitude of God’s goodness is opposed by the magnitude of the devil’s evil.

To protect mankind from what the devil and his unwitting human followers unleashed, is why he wanted to keep evil out of their lives, so he had to deal with this situation so that it could never be raised again.
By allowing it to play out without his intervention for the most part, we have seen where that level of evil can lead. This in turn created precedents that will be in place for all eternity. The precious gift of free will is retained and all the lessons that came from seeing how it’s misuse has caused so much harm, we will never want to see it again.

The end justified the means because of what is written in Isaiah 65:17...
“For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.”

The awful memory of the life that humankind have had to endure, will never come back to traumatise them.
They will not even be “called to mind”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isn't that what JW's do over blood transfusions?

One of the few things that the Bible reiterates throughout, is the sanctity of blood. This along with God’s moral laws and prohibition on false worship, are repeated from start to finish.
Beginning in Genesis, where Noah was given permission for the first time to eat the flesh of animals, came God’s law on the consumption of blood.

Gen 9:2-6...
“A fear of you and a terror of you will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that moves on the ground and upon all the fish of the sea. They are now given into your hand. 3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood+—you must not eat. 5 Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother. 6 Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man.”

The animal had to have its lifeblood poured out on the ground, symbolically returning its life to its Maker.
Anyone shedding blood or consuming blood, was accountable.

Even shedding blood in war also had to have God’s sanction, or severe consequences followed. It was part of God’s law to Israel that blood was sacred to God, and only he had the right to say how it would be used or shed. God’s law to Israel was very specific about blood. (Lev 17:10-14)

Fast forward to the first century and we see again God’s law on the use of blood is repeated to Christians, especially to Gentile converts who were not raised with God’s laws and therefore not acquainted with his laws on false worship, morals, and blood.

The apostles told the Christians....(in response to the circumcision issue)
“Therefore, my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had those who preach him in city after city, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.” (Acts 15:19-21)

So Jews knew full well the laws of God through Moses pertaining to these things, but the Gentiles had to bring themselves into line with how God views them, not how they may have once thought of them.

Since consuming blood was against God’s law and it was repeated for Christians, why do Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions? Because it is still consuming the blood of another person, just via different means. When one cannot consume food in the normal way, they are often fed intravenously.

When it was stated that a strangled animal was not to be eaten, it was because the lifeblood remained in that creature.

Are blood transfusions really life saving...? A multi-million dollar a year industry tries to maintain that this is, but the truth is out....blood is dangerous and causes more harm than it does good. More people die after a blood transfusion than who ever die because of refusing one.

This video was put out some years ago on the Australian Government’s website.....It’s nothing to do with JW’s, so very enlightening considering that these things have been known for decades now.
Listen for the words “morbidity” (bad outcomes) and “mortality” (death) in relation to blood transfusions.

Dangers of blood transfusions

People, especially in nations where blood donors are paid, are unaware of who donated the blood that they are given. The AIDS epidemic of the 1980’s was spread in only two ways....unprotected sex (usually involving immorality of one or more of the partners, especially homosexuals) and blood transfusions. Both are against God’s law and protect his servants from harm if they are obeyed.

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord." - Isaiah 55:8

So that is a cover for all the laws and rules that you find inconvenient?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So when God chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) was that a plan or a purpose? He didn't know that they would fail? That they would reject Jesus as the Messiah? Despite the fact that there are Old Testament prophecies that indicate that they would do so?

What is prophesy? It is history written in advance. God’s foreknowledge does not cancel out free will.
He has all contingencies covered because his adversary also has free will. Look how many times satan tried to thwart Jehovah’s purpose, only to have him respond in every situation to keep his purpose on track.
Look how satan tried to have Jesus killed by Herod just after his birth. Jehovah intervened and saved his life. Satan even had the gaul to tempt Jesus, knowing that God’s means of salvation was dependant on his faithful obedience....as a free willed human, Jesus was not immune, because satan already had two sinless humans under his belt. But Jehovah was confident that he had sent the right man for the job.

How many times was Israel induced to serve false gods? In breaking their covenant with Jehovah, he had every right to terminate it, but his Messiah was going to come in the manner that he foretold, and in every situation, God brought Israel back so that his Messiah would arrive on time and in the right place through the descendants of Abraham. Nothing satan did was going to derail God’s purpose, even though he had to implement some clever strategies at times.

Was Judas' free-will interfered with when he fulfilled the prophecy of betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver? NO, God sets out a plan. He decided ahead of time, that disobedience of His law would bring consequences to the human race. That resulted in sin and death. When he told Eve about her seed, was that planned? Or was it a purpose that would take some 4,000 years before it would be fulfilled when Jesus came on the scene?

Again history was written in advance. Judas did what he did by his own choice. God had nothing to do with what he did, but simply saw ahead of time what would be, and told his people in prophesy what would take place. Again not planned but a response to what was to be.

Telling about the coming of the seed was a response to their sin. As we have already agreed, if there was no sin, then Gen 3:15 would never have been uttered because there was no need of a savior if no one needed saving.

There are so many things that you seem unaware of in your questioning. These are things that continued “light on the path” brings......God reveals his purpose and more details about it as time progresses....what we need to know, and when we need to know it, is determined by God, not us. (Matt 24:45)

Actually, had Adam and Eve not sinned, there would be no need for Christ to be Sovereign ruler.

Bingo. Jesus’ sacrifice was the response to Adam’s choice.....Eve was already guilty, but it was Adam who sentenced the human race to death by his choice to join her, throwing all of his children under the bus.
Eve is not blamed for mankind’s plight...Adam is. (Rom 5:12)

 

[Keiw]

Yes you did!
You quoted verse 38 incorrectly, implying God was finished with his people and then you failed to interpret verse 39 (at all!) so your silence has placed you in this precarious position. The only deceiving going on here is found in your posts. You are all boastful about verse 38 and when verse 39 is shown to you, you run a mile.

How much more
When will they say?

F2F

I used verse 39 and said the door was left open to them, They have outright refused to walk through it. And never will. They would have to leave Judaism and become a true christian. I said correctly about verse38--Your house is abandoned to you= religion is cut off.

 

[Keiw]

And WHERE in the context of John 10:16 does it say that? You can't just isolate a verse and attach it to another and make up a belief system.

Other sheep who are not of that fold--that fold = the little flock-other sheep= the great crowd-the only ones getting saved.

 

[RR144]

Other sheep who are not of that fold--that fold = the little flock-other sheep= the great crowd-the only ones getting saved.

YOu know, you and the others make these statements, but I never see any scripture and reason for what you say. Just statements. So unless you can show me with Scriptures and REASON, you'll never convince me. Taking verses out of context is not the way to go.

 

[Keiw]

YOu know, you and the others make these statements, but I never see any scripture and reason for what you say. Just statements. So unless you can show me with Scriptures and REASON, you'll never convince me. Taking verses out of context is not the way to go.

Great crowd= no man can number( Rev 7:9)--Rev 14:3= the anointed bride of CHRIST= the little flock= numbered.=144,000 bought from the earth as Jesus' bride.= the little flock.

 

[face2face]

And never will. They would have to leave Judaism and become a true christian.

By whose authourity can you say God will not graft them back in? And will not say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord?

Paul states "how much more"
Jesus states the next time they see him it will be under very different circumstances.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

By whose authourity can you say God will not graft them back in? And will not say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord?

Paul states "how much more"
Jesus states the next time they see him it will be under very different circumstances.

F2F

They will have an opportunity, when they see Babylon the great fall-which includes Judaism they can run to Jehovah. And bless the one he sent forth to them. All will have that opportunity because Gods love is immeasurable. That is part of the new light-We thought the door gets locked at the fall of Babylon, but now all get an opportunity to run to Jehovah. It won't last long though. And it could be tough at that point because the tribulation will begin at her fall.

 

[face2face]

They will have an opportunity, when they see Babylon the great fall-which includes Judaism they can run to Jehovah. And bless the one he sent forth to them. All will have that opportunity because Gods love is immeasurable. That is part of the new light-We thought the door gets locked at the fall of Babylon, but now all get an opportunity to run to Jehovah. It won't last long though. And it could be tough at that point because the tribulation will begin at her fall.

Keep doing your homework Keiw. There are so many Scriptures to inform you when and how this will happen.
F2F

 

[Keiw]

Keep doing your homework Keiw. There are so many Scriptures to inform you when and how this will happen.
F2F

It won't be to much longer. This world( system of things) is falling apart quickly. I wouldn't doubt if this war with Hamas and Israel triggers the fall of Babylon.

 

[face2face]

It won't be to much longer. This world( system of things) is falling apart quickly. I wouldn't doubt if this war with Hamas and Israel triggers the fall of Babylon.

A number of events yet to happen before that system falls. I believe Israel needs to dwell without walls “I will march against a land of towns without walls. I will attack those who are at rest and live in safety. All of them live without city walls or gate bars or gates." Ezek 38:11 It's possible the current offensive could eventually result in this.
F2F

 

[Keiw]

A number of events yet to happen before that system falls. I believe Israel needs to dwell without walls “I will march against a land of towns without walls. I will attack those who are at rest and live in safety. All of them live without city walls or gate bars or gates." Ezek 38:11 It's possible the current offensive could eventually result in this.
F2F

The attack of Gog of Magog occurs at the end of the tribulation i believe. Every kingdom( govt, armies supporters) on earth( Rev 16) will be mislead to stand in opposition to Gods king by 3 inspired expressions from satans side( i do believe they will hit mortals in their hearts like 3 9/11,s did and for patriotism they will fall).
When Babylon falls= all religion done away with--spiritual Israel( Gods chosen) will stand strong and then the whole world turns on them and this is what occurs-Rev 19:11

 

[RR144]

Great crowd= no man can number( Rev 7:9)--Rev 14:3= the anointed bride of CHRIST= the little flock= numbered.=144,000 bought from the earth as Jesus' bride.= the little flock.

But you still haven't been able to tie the "other sheep" of John 10 with the great company of Rev 7. I don't see the correlation.

 

[Keiw]

But you still haven't been able to tie the "other sheep" of John 10 with the great company of Rev 7. I don't see the correlation.

They are the only other ones who will be saved-they have to be the other sheep not of that fold.