Who Does The Father Draw?

[Rollo Tamasi]

I feel great brokenness over the lost and have weep over them. As far as the "they" I am referring to any and all who reject the Gospel. You are right that we can't know the heart of any person but we can see fruit of their actions and I do not believe that there is any good person on this earth. All have fallen short of God's glory (myself included). Man is naturally evil.

what if they've never heard the Gospel?

 

[Nancy]

Is that you with the balloon?
She's cute!

No, I got brave and put my true self as my Avatar.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No, I got brave and put my true self as my Avatar.

Oh oh, looks like a women's libber!
my oh my!

 

[Nancy]

what if they've never heard the Gospel?

I know the Bible says that knowing Jesus is the only way to get to heaven. But there are people in remote parts of the world who may never get a chance to hear about God or Jesus. What happens to them when they die?
How does this apply to someone who never hears the gospel? The Bible says, "The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" (Romans 1:19-20, New Living Translation).

 

[Nancy]

Matthew 24:14 (NKJV) "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." OR

"The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" (Romans 1:19-20, New Living Translation).

 

[Nancy]

Oh oh, looks like a women's libber!
my oh my!

Well, you could call me a woman libber I guess, since Jesus liberated me

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, you could call me a woman libber I guess, since Jesus liberated me

Are you Lady Madonna?

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 9:16 -
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 9:16 is very clear in stating that it is God's mercy on humankind to have provided a way of escape from hell. Whereas you believe God destines some for hell.

Grace. Mercy and compassion cannot be earned by man. We are saved by grace through faith; through FAITH, not by God's decree on an individual basis.
Ephesians 2:8
Therefore, we cannot work our way to heaven, but it is through God's mercy and compassion through our faith, that leads us to heaven.

Romans 5:18 shows us the love that God has for us in providing us with the FREE GIFT of salvation.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

How is God a God of mercy, as Romans 9:16 states, if He willingly and with no hesitation sends His created humans to hell for no reason at all?

How do you call Him a God of mercy and then make a monster out of Him.

Jesus came to forgive the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD, not just some.
John 1:29
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that total depravity is the complete fallen nature of man. Mankind as a whole is undone and every part of us is stained and influenced by sin. Man won't submit to God unless there is conviction nor does man desire to submit to God Almighty. There are no good people on this earth. None are righteous, all turned away, and come in to this world separated from God and with a sin nature.

There is none righteous, no not one.
Not being righteous before God is not the same as being totally depraved.
If we are totally depraved then we would need God to pull us up to some level where He could then save us.

So if God is pulling us up to Him, it means He has to regenerate us FIRST and THEN we can become saved by having the ABILITY to accept Him.

There are so many problems with this.
First of all, one BELIEVES first, and THEN one is saved and regenerated.
When the jailer in acts asks what he must do to be saved, the answer is:
Believe and you will be saved.
Acts 16:31

Faith comes from hearing the word of God. Every man can hear the word of God, not just the elect.
Romans 10:17

Romans 10:9 tells us that we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead, and WE WILL BE SAVED.
Not the other way around.

Romans 10:13
WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord, will be saved.

First we call on the name of the Lord,
First we hear the gospel message,
First we believe
First we confess

And then we are saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

God's Word, The One and Only True God who sent His Son to die for my sins.

Ephesians 1:4-6 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

I guess the scripture above doesn't apply to you...

Ephesians 1:4-6 is not about predestinating someone to salvation.
It's about HOW one will be saved. It's very easy to see this if you come to scripture with no predetermined ideas.

Ephesians 1:4-6
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

God chose those who would love Him (us) to be holy and blameless before Him. This is the PURPOSE for which we are saved --- to be holy and blameless before God.
God predestined us to be adopted sons THROUGH JESUS, according to the kind intention of the plan God had from the beginning of time when He so willed to create humans and had a plan ready to save those that would be saved by accepting His eternal plan of salvation.
The plan was to save those who wanted to be saved through Jesus and to make us as adopted sons.

God is love. He wills that no one perish.
John 5:39-41
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41“I do not receive glory from men;"


Notice two facts from the above scripture:

1. JESUS is saying that the listeners were UNWILLING to come to Him.
Once again, showing that man has free will to choose to go to God and the ABILITY to go to God, hence he is not totally depraved.

2. God does not get any GLORY from sending some to hell, as you believe.

 

[Nancy]

I believe that total depravity is the complete fallen nature of man. Mankind as a whole is undone and every part of us is stained and influenced by sin. Man won't submit to God unless there is conviction nor does man desire to submit to God Almighty. There are no good people on this earth. None are righteous, all turned away, and come in to this world separated from God and with a sin nature.

"Man won't submit to God unless there is conviction..." In John 16:8, Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit: “When [the Spirit] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (ESV). In this verse, we see a three-fold ministry the Spirit will perform in relation to the unsaved world. He will “convict” the world; that is, He will reprove it or show it to be wrong. This reproof will target three areas in which the world needs admonishing: sin, righteousness, and judgment.
The Holy Spirit’s tasks is to convict the world of its sin. No amount of preaching, pleading, or pointing of fingers will bring about the conviction of sin, unless the Holy Spirit is at work in the sinner’s heart. It is the Spirit’s job to convict.
"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment, John 16:8.

 

[Nancy]

Are you Lady Madonna?

No, I'm Lovely Rita Meter Maid

 

[Nancy]

Matthew 24:14 (NKJV) "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." OR

"The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" (Romans 1:19-20, New Living Translation).

Oopsie, I doubled that one part!

 

[GodsGrace]

No, see my reply #190.

It doesn't matter what I say to you about Calvinism, you are on a crusade and will not listen.

I ask you to consider this. Go back as far as you can and honestly ask yourself, why do I hate the doctrine of election so much? I know you have said because it makes God a monster, but you already said God is not a monster for destroying all the world in the flood. And lots of babies drowned in that flood. So what is it really that you despise about election?

I am going to tell you what it is, because I don't believe you will answer me. It is because you feel you do not need it. You don't need God to choose you, cause you will be the one to come to Him. You will make the right decision and deserve a pat on the back for it. You don't need that much grace, where God doesn't leave the decision up to you. This goes hand in hand with your belief that you can lose your salvation. You have to keep earning it. Do you hear yourself. "God doesn't choose me, I choose Him. And I maintain my walk by being obedient to Him."

It is not because it makes God a monster. It is because it takes away from you.

Stranger

I told you why and you repeated it up above,,,so you know why I dislike it.
I explained why the flood was different.
If I sound like a great egomaniac to you, so be it.
What comes through these wires cannot be helped.
All I know is this...
God is love
He desires that all men be saved.
Men are able to accept salvation.
Jesus died for everyone that wishes to be saved.
Men are born with the sin nature but are not totally depraved.
Man has free will to choose.
God sends no one to hell who does not want to go there.

 

[GodsGrace]

You misinterpreted and misrepresent what I said.

Stranger

See stranger.
You say what you say and how you say it and then complain that we don't understand you.
I went through this with you also.

Maybe it's your language?
Maybe you don't care to admit your theology as another poster has?

 

[GodsGrace]

All of your 7 points are good and true. But, they don't disprove God's election. All of your 'whosoever' verses simply emphasize the importance of mans will being involved in his salvation. Just like the later part of (John 6:37). "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Or the later part of (2 Thess. 2:13) "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through santification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." Thus the Gospel is necessary. Election does not nullify the Gospel.

And note the first part of these verses. It is first, "All that the Father giveth me" and "chosen you to salvation through santification of the Spirit". God gives first, the Spirit works to bring you then you believe.

God would have all men to be saved. And God is not willing that any should perish. Thus the blood of Christ is sufficient to save any who come. And the invitation is to all to come. This does not prove there is no election. This proves the need for an election. If God does not elect, then you or I will not come.

You ignore the whole purpose of 'children of promise'. The promise precedes the one promised. (Rom. 9:11) "For the children being not yet born" Jacob was a child of promise just like Isaac was. But Esau was not. All believers are children of promise. Not because they exercised faith. They exercised faith because they were children of promise.

Stranger

I DID read this post.
LCD, who is a calvinist gave you a like.
You are disagreeing with Enoch111 who is representing mainline Christianity.
So, what am I to think?

 

[Nancy]

Ephesians 1:4-6 is not about predestinating someone to salvation.
It's about HOW one will be saved. It's very easy to see this if you come to scripture with no predetermined ideas.

Ephesians 1:4-6
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

God chose those who would love Him (us) to be holy and blameless before Him. This is the PURPOSE for which we are saved --- to be holy and blameless before God.
God predestined us to be adopted sons THROUGH JESUS, according to the kind intention of the plan God had from the beginning of time when He so willed to create humans and had a plan ready to save those that would be saved by accepting His eternal plan of salvation.
The plan was to save those who wanted to be saved through Jesus and to make us as adopted sons.

God is love. He wills that no one perish.
John 5:39-41
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41“I do not receive glory from men;"


Notice two facts from the above scripture:

1. JESUS is saying that the listeners were UNWILLING to come to Him.
Once again, showing that man has free will to choose to go to God and the ABILITY to go to God, hence he is not totally depraved.

2. God does not get any GLORY from sending some to hell, as you believe.

Excellent scripture verses there GG

 

[Stranger]

I told you why and you repeated it up above,,,so you know why I dislike it.
I explained why the flood was different.
If I sound like a great egomaniac to you, so be it.
What comes through these wires cannot be helped.
All I know is this...
God is love
He desires that all men be saved.
Men are able to accept salvation.
Jesus died for everyone that wishes to be saved.
Men are born with the sin nature but are not totally depraved.
Man has free will to choose.
God sends no one to hell who does not want to go there.

Yes, you said a mouthful, though you don't know it. You said, "All I know is God is love". That is all you know. And God is much more than that, but that is all you know, and worse, that is all you want to know, and to hell with any other information.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

See stranger.
You say what you say and how you say it and then complain that we don't understand you.
I went through this with you also.

Maybe it's your language?
Maybe you don't care to admit your theology as another poster has?

I complain when I am misinterpreted and misrepresented. As Nancy did. I have no problems admitting my theology. I have problems being misrepresented.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I DID read this post.
LCD, who is a calvinist gave you a like.
You are disagreeing with Enoch111 who is representing mainline Christianity.
So, what am I to think?

You will think what you want to think. Your hatred of calvinism cannot allow you to have a conversation on election. Any thing that tends to agree with what you call calvinism, you reject.

And what is 'mainline Christianity'? Is that what you believe? Of course it is. You are so bedrock...not.

Stranger