Who Does The Father Draw?

[GodsGrace]

I believe what the Bible says, not so much what any man says but if you feel the need to label me then feel free to. Would you not agree that we are slaves to sin? Would you also not agree with the fact that man is completely fallen and separated from God?

Please find out about the religion you represent here since you're either naiive or very smart.

Labels are good. They help us to know to whom we're speaking.

 

[GodsGrace]

The spiritual nature of man is not free if it is enslaved to sin (our will is influenced and in bondage to sin) That is why Jesus came to set us free. We are not free if we need deliverance from enslavement. This is my third time saying this so apparently you don't understand that you were a slave to sin before coming to Christ.

Who can be born again?
Are we totally depraved?
Do you even know what that means? Look it up.

I agree we can only be truly free when we are united and working for God.

WHO EXACTLY did Jesus set free?

 

[GodsGrace]

T


Yes we all deserve Hell, myself included, I stand guilty before God for my sin and God would be justified to send me to Hell if it was not for Christ. Why does it matter which church I attend? I see that often on here during debates, oh what church do you attend, blah blah. Are we not all the body of Christ? Since you seem to know me so well I think you have it already in your mind where I attend

I gave you two choices.
Was I right?
It matters not to me what church people go to.
It matters to me that they follow the bible and not a man.
What or who are you following?

 

[Nancy]

No, I can't forget Calvinism because it's dishonest. Some come on these forums and put our their ideas in a coy way so it's difficult to tell exactly what they're saying; if you notice, this is what my O.P. is about. What exactly do some mean by some statements...including YOU!

But you have finally explained yourself in a way that I understand...never have before TTYTT.

As to election...I've answered this. When the N.T. speaks of election it's speaking to God choosing the Jewish people, or electing them, with whom to reveal Himself to the world. I mentioned about Romans 9 to 11 where election is spoken of...Paul is speaking of the Jews and how they didn't accept the Messiah and how God is now going to graft in the gentiles and how the Jews will have to accept them but they are still God's chosen, or elected, people. As I said, elect only means to choose. The Jews are God's chosen, or elected, people.
(not each one of us individually as the reformed church and only the reformed church believes).

Good post. But I must say that I believe "the elect" are now all who are saved. The Jews will always be Gods chosen people to usher in His covenants.
JMO

 

[Nancy]

Please find out about the religion you represent here since you're either naiive or very smart.

Labels are good. They help us to know to whom we're speaking.

"LC627 said: ↑
I believe what the Bible says, not so much what any man says but if you feel the need to label me then feel free to. Would you not agree that we are slaves to sin? Would you also not agree with the fact that man is completely fallen and separated from God?

I must beg to differ in the highlighted part of your post @LC627 . If you are talking about Christians here (we) on the contrary-"we" Christians are no longer slaves to sin! "Romans 6:6-We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin."
"Would you also not agree with the fact that man is completely fallen and separated from God?"---only until and unless they repent- if we are truly FREE in Christ then we are free indeed!

 

[LC627]

Does it by chance depend on anything the person does, or does God just arbitrarily harden whom He will and save whom He will?
Romans 2:28

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy based on whether or not that person adhered to God's commandments.

God is not a God of confusion: He let's us know what He wants from us ...
Why else reveal Himself to us?

Romans 9:16 -
Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[LC627]

Please find out about the religion you represent here since you're either naiive or very smart.

Labels are good. They help us to know to whom we're speaking.

If I must pick a camp then I would pitch my tent with the Calvinist.

 

[LC627]

Who can be born again?
Are we totally depraved?
Do you even know what that means? Look it up.

I agree we can only be truly free when we are united and working for God.

WHO EXACTLY did Jesus set free?

I believe that total depravity is the complete fallen nature of man. Mankind as a whole is undone and every part of us is stained and influenced by sin. Man won't submit to God unless there is conviction nor does man desire to submit to God Almighty. There are no good people on this earth. None are righteous, all turned away, and come in to this world separated from God and with a sin nature.

 

[LC627]

I gave you two choices.
Was I right?
It matters not to me what church people go to.
It matters to me that they follow the bible and not a man.
What or who are you following?

God's Word, The One and Only True God who sent His Son to die for my sins.

Ephesians 1:4-6 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

I guess the scripture above doesn't apply to you...

 

[Stranger]

Because:
(1) All people are sinners
(2) Christ died for all mankind
(3) All are commanded to repent
(4) All are commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
(5) Eternal life is offered to "whosoever" (anyone and everyone)
(6) God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
(7) God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So using Romans 9 to nullify the Gospel is simply dishonest.

Therefore let's look at verses 8:... but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This needs to be connected to Galatians 3 & 4: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham...For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

What is Paul teaching here? That the children of promise within the Abrahamic covenant are all those who put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And since "WHOSOEVER" may take of the water of life freely, it is impossible that Roman 9 can be subverted to conform to Calvinistic theology.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

And this brings us back to whom the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit draw to Christ. ANYONE AND EVERYONE.

All of your 7 points are good and true. But, they don't disprove God's election. All of your 'whosoever' verses simply emphasize the importance of mans will being involved in his salvation. Just like the later part of (John 6:37). "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Or the later part of (2 Thess. 2:13) "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through santification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." Thus the Gospel is necessary. Election does not nullify the Gospel.

And note the first part of these verses. It is first, "All that the Father giveth me" and "chosen you to salvation through santification of the Spirit". God gives first, the Spirit works to bring you then you believe.

God would have all men to be saved. And God is not willing that any should perish. Thus the blood of Christ is sufficient to save any who come. And the invitation is to all to come. This does not prove there is no election. This proves the need for an election. If God does not elect, then you or I will not come.

You ignore the whole purpose of 'children of promise'. The promise precedes the one promised. (Rom. 9:11) "For the children being not yet born" Jacob was a child of promise just like Isaac was. But Esau was not. All believers are children of promise. Not because they exercised faith. They exercised faith because they were children of promise.

Stranger

 

[LC627]

"LC627 said: ↑
I believe what the Bible says, not so much what any man says but if you feel the need to label me then feel free to. Would you not agree that we are slaves to sin? Would you also not agree with the fact that man is completely fallen and separated from God?

I must beg to differ in the highlighted part of your post @LC627 . If you are talking about Christians here (we) on the contrary-"we" Christians are no longer slaves to sin! "Romans 6:6-We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin."
"Would you also not agree with the fact that man is completely fallen and separated from God?"---only until and unless they repent- if we are truly FREE in Christ then we are free indeed!

Yes, no longer because Christ set us free. Those outside of Christ are still slaves and not free (In bondage) and under the influence of the devil

 

[Stranger]

to tell you the truth.

Romans 9 to 11 is all about Israel and not individual salvation.
Look it up if you so dare.

Paul is addressing the jews and telling them from whom the seed comes from and what it means to be of the seed and if everyone thinks they are of Abraham only because they are born Jews.
Romans 2:28

First of all, you totally ignore the individual aspect of the children of promise and election that (Rom. 9:7-13) proves. It is not speaking to Israel as a nation chosen but individuals who make up that nation. Thus "Jacob have loved, but Esau have I hated". (Rom. 9:13)

I do so dare. And just as (Rom. 9:6-13) speaks to the 'children of promise' who make up the nation Israel, so also does it apply to Gentiles who make up the believing now in the Church. (Gal. 3:26) "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:29) "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

Yes, no longer because Christ set us free. Those outside of Christ are still slaves and not free (In bondage) and under the influence of the devil

For sure!

 

[Stranger]

It nullifies the gospel because what is the good news then??

That God chose some to salvation and some to damnation.
You're a calvinist Stranger - you could stop denying it and telling me to stop worrying about it.

@Enoch111 is right on with what he posted.
God's elect are the Jewish nation NOT those whom HE predestined from before time for salvation.

God draws ALL MEN to Him NOT just a select few.

Romans 1:19-20
God has always made Himself be known to man through His creation.

I firmly believe that we are to adhere to the bible and not to ANY man-made doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3

No, see my reply #190.

It doesn't matter what I say to you about Calvinism, you are on a crusade and will not listen.

I ask you to consider this. Go back as far as you can and honestly ask yourself, why do I hate the doctrine of election so much? I know you have said because it makes God a monster, but you already said God is not a monster for destroying all the world in the flood. And lots of babies drowned in that flood. So what is it really that you despise about election?

I am going to tell you what it is, because I don't believe you will answer me. It is because you feel you do not need it. You don't need God to choose you, cause you will be the one to come to Him. You will make the right decision and deserve a pat on the back for it. You don't need that much grace, where God doesn't leave the decision up to you. This goes hand in hand with your belief that you can lose your salvation. You have to keep earning it. Do you hear yourself. "God doesn't choose me, I choose Him. And I maintain my walk by being obedient to Him."

It is not because it makes God a monster. It is because it takes away from you.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

God's Word, The One and Only True God who sent His Son to die for my sins.

Ephesians 1:4-6 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

I guess the scripture above doesn't apply to you...

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, <--- and what is His will? That NONE should perish. The "elect" are the Christians and Predestined is not INDIVIDUAL SELECTION but CORPORATE, meaning Gentiles as well as the Jews. God is no respcetor of persons, and He died for the WHOLE WORLD. How is it that this is not clear?

 

[Nancy]

No, see my reply #190.

It doesn't matter what I say to you about Calvinism, you are on a crusade and will not listen.

I ask you to consider this. Go back as far as you can and honestly ask yourself, why do I hate the doctrine of election so much? I know you have said because it makes God a monster, but you already said God is not a monster for destroying all the world in the flood. And lots of babies drowned in that flood. So what is it really that you despise about election?

I am going to tell you what it is, because I don't believe you will answer me. It is because you feel you do not need it. You don't need God to choose you, cause you will be the one to come to Him. You will make the right decision and deserve a pat on the back for it. You don't need that much grace, where God doesn't leave the decision up to you. This goes hand in hand with your belief that you can lose your salvation. You have to keep earning it. Do you hear yourself. "God doesn't choose me, I choose Him. And I maintain my walk by being obedient to Him."

It is not because it makes God a monster. It is because it takes away from you.

Stranger

"You have to keep earning it." <---Whaaaat? Where do you see that we "earn" our salvation?? He called ALL men to Him...you remember Him saying that while ascending back to Heaven, yes?
Choose this day whom you will serve- LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

I am stumped as your view just trashes these very clear scripture.
Be blessed,
-nancy

 

[Stranger]

"You have to keep earning it." <---Whaaaat? Where do you see that we "earn" our salvation?? He called ALL men to Him...you remember Him saying that while ascending back to Heaven, yes?
Choose this day whom you will serve- LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

I am stumped as your view just trashes these very clear scripture.
Be blessed,
-nancy

You misinterpreted and misrepresent what I said.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

You misinterpreted and misrepresent what I said.

Stranger

Can you expound on that?

 

[Stranger]

Can you expound on that?

If you reread #194, the sentence before "you have to keep earning it", you will see that I was talking to GodsGrace and said, "This goes hand in hand with your belief".

Stranger

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Okay, https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...446a22853ffb2a82b6a1aa59176c30b0&action=click

Is that you with the balloon?
She's cute!