Who Does The Father Draw?

[Philip James]

Man is naturally evil.

I disagree.

Gen 1:31

God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed - the sixth day.

All creation is naturally good, and Christs death and ressurection has freed it from the curse of Adams sin...

HE has reconciled all of creation and it is indeed 'very good'

To HIM be power and glory and honour forever and ever!

Pax!

 

[LC627]

I'm sorry Iforrest.
There are not two realities. There's only ONE reality.
Either we have free will or we don't.
You do have to decide which it is.

The bible teaches that we have free will.
Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Both the O.T. and the N.T. is full of choices. Choices show that we have free will.
And not compatible free will, where, as Calvin taught, God MAKES US have HIS will so that it SEEMS that we have free will but really we don't. This is not the God of the bible who loves His creation so much as to have provided a way of escape from going to hell --- something Calvin opposes. The bible teaches us:

John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


And what is compatible free will?
God makes us THINK we're using our free will be changing what we want, or will.
Rather a tricky God that would be, don't you think?
Here is an explanation of compatible free will, which all churches oppose, except for the reformed, or calvinist, churches.

Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.14

God does not simply permit man to act in a particular way. Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.

15 God works internally in the minds of men so that ‘whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God’.

16 The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.

17 It follows therefore that ‘the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things’.

source: https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol12/calvin_lane.pdf

Man is free is action/thought/speech, it is the spirit that is held in bondage to sin and not free. I'm sorry but man is not as free as they believe they are. We all are slaves to sin and our will is in bondage

 

[LC627]

I disagree.

Gen 1:31

God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed - the sixth day.

All creation is naturally good, and Christs death and ressurection has freed it from the curse of Adams sin...

HE has reconciled all of creation and it is indeed 'very good'

To HIM be power and glory and honour forever and ever!

Pax!

Man was good until the fall. God created us good but man messed it up. Jesus said no one is good except God (Mark 10:18) If man was good then why do we have to repent? We are all lawbreakers against the holy God. If mankind was good they would not deserve hell.

 

[LC627]

I'm sorry Iforrest.
There are not two realities. There's only ONE reality.
Either we have free will or we don't.
You do have to decide which it is.

The bible teaches that we have free will.
Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Both the O.T. and the N.T. is full of choices. Choices show that we have free will.
And not compatible free will, where, as Calvin taught, God MAKES US have HIS will so that it SEEMS that we have free will but really we don't. This is not the God of the bible who loves His creation so much as to have provided a way of escape from going to hell --- something Calvin opposes. The bible teaches us:

John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


And what is compatible free will?
God makes us THINK we're using our free will be changing what we want, or will.
Rather a tricky God that would be, don't you think?
Here is an explanation of compatible free will, which all churches oppose, except for the reformed, or calvinist, churches.

Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.14

God does not simply permit man to act in a particular way. Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.

15 God works internally in the minds of men so that ‘whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God’.

16 The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.

17 It follows therefore that ‘the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things’.

source: https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol12/calvin_lane.pdf

You will say to me then, "why does He still find fault? for who resist His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, why did you make me like this," will it? Or does the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" -Romans 9:19-21

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. - Proverbs 16:4

 

[Enoch111]

You will say to me then, "why does He still find fault? for who resist His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, why did you make me like this," will it? Or does the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" -Romans 9:19-21

This passage should not be taken out of context to suggest or *prove* that God has predestined some for salvation and others for damnation. That would simple nullify the Gospel. Here is what is stated in verse 18:Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So the real issue is whether God will have mercy on all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Bible is very clear that God will indeed have mercy on all who obey the Gospel. Here are the words of Christ (John 3:17): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

But He will harden the hearts of those who will not respond to the Gospel and harden their own hearts (John 3:19): And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And that is where your next verse fits:

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. - Proverbs 16:4

 

[Stranger]

This passage should not be taken out of context to suggest or *prove* that God has predestined some for salvation and others for damnation. That would simple nullify the Gospel. Here is what is stated in verse 18:Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So the real issue is whether God will have mercy on all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Bible is very clear that God will indeed have mercy on all who obey the Gospel. Here are the words of Christ (John 3:17): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

But He will harden the hearts of those who will not respond to the Gospel and harden their own hearts (John 3:19): And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And that is where your next verse fits:

No. You have erred with the context. The context goes back to (Rom. 9:14) "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. "

Why did Paul ask this? Because he just made the statement in (Rom. 9:8-13) as to who the 'children of promise' are. And he showed that the children of promise are chosen according to election before they are ever born into this life. (9:11)

This does not nullify the Gospel. Why would it?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

But I am not representing Calvinism. I am just speaking to 'election'.

Can't you forget Calvinism and just address 'election'?

Stranger

No, I can't forget Calvinism because it's dishonest. Some come on these forums and put our their ideas in a coy way so it's difficult to tell exactly what they're saying; if you notice, this is what my O.P. is about. What exactly do some mean by some statements...including YOU!

But you have finally explained yourself in a way that I understand...never have before TTYTT.

As to election...I've answered this. When the N.T. speaks of election it's speaking to God choosing the Jewish people, or electing them, with whom to reveal Himself to the world. I mentioned about Romans 9 to 11 where election is spoken of...Paul is speaking of the Jews and how they didn't accept the Messiah and how God is now going to graft in the gentiles and how the Jews will have to accept them but they are still God's chosen, or elected, people. As I said, elect only means to choose. The Jews are God's chosen, or elected, people.
(not each one of us individually as the reformed church and only the reformed church believes).

 

[GodsGrace]

All of it. All scripture is inspired by God.

You don't seem to understand what I'm talking about so I'm not going to insist with you.

You could believe what you will, just be honest about it.
Your answers are always very ambiguous.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man is free is action/thought/speech, it is the spirit that is held in bondage to sin and not free. I'm sorry but man is not as free as they believe they are. We all are slaves to sin and our will is in bondage

Yeah. So you're a calvinist.
It becomes clear.
Why not just say so?
What's the fear?

What does "as free" mean anyway?
You either have free will or you don't.

And if you're talking about freedom in God, then you have your language all wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man was good until the fall. God created us good but man messed it up. Jesus said no one is good except God (Mark 10:18) If man was good then why do we have to repent? We are all lawbreakers against the holy God. If mankind was good they would not deserve hell.

Man was good till the fall....
We all deserve hell....

So which reformed church do you go to?
Presbyterian?
Baptist Reformed?

 

[Stranger]

No, I can't forget Calvinism because it's dishonest. Some come on these forums and put our their ideas in a coy way so it's difficult to tell exactly what they're saying; if you notice, this is what my O.P. is about. What exactly do some mean by some statements...including YOU!

But you have finally explained yourself in a way that I understand...never have before TTYTT.

As to election...I've answered this. When the N.T. speaks of election it's speaking to God choosing the Jewish people, or electing them, with whom to reveal Himself to the world. I mentioned about Romans 9 to 11 where election is spoken of...Paul is speaking of the Jews and how they didn't accept the Messiah and how God is now going to graft in the gentiles and how the Jews will have to accept them but they are still God's chosen, or elected, people. As I said, elect only means to choose. The Jews are God's chosen, or elected, people.
(not each one of us individually as the reformed church and only the reformed church believes).

What is TTYTT?

Actually, individually is exactly what (Rom. 9:6-13) is addrdessing. "...the are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called....For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand....Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

You can't get more individual or plainer than that.

Stranger

 

[LC627]

This passage should not be taken out of context to suggest or *prove* that God has predestined some for salvation and others for damnation. That would simple nullify the Gospel. Here is what is stated in verse 18:Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So the real issue is whether God will have mercy on all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Bible is very clear that God will indeed have mercy on all who obey the Gospel. Here are the words of Christ (John 3:17): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

But He will harden the hearts of those who will not respond to the Gospel and harden their own hearts (John 3:19): And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And that is where your next verse fits:

I'm sorry but I do not see it like that. That is a stretch of the scriptures. God will have mercy on whom He will and He will harden whom He will. There is not unrighteousness with God.

 

[LC627]

Yeah. So you're a calvinist.
It becomes clear.
Why not just say so?
What's the fear?

What does "as free" mean anyway?
You either have free will or you don't.

And if you're talking about freedom in God, then you have your language all wrong.

I believe what the Bible says, not so much what any man says but if you feel the need to label me then feel free to. Would you not agree that we are slaves to sin? Would you also not agree with the fact that man is completely fallen and separated from God?

 

[LC627]

Yeah. So you're a calvinist.
It becomes clear.
Why not just say so?
What's the fear?

What does "as free" mean anyway?
You either have free will or you don't.

And if you're talking about freedom in God, then you have your language all wrong.

The spiritual nature of man is not free if it is enslaved to sin (our will is influenced and in bondage to sin) That is why Jesus came to set us free. We are not free if we need deliverance from enslavement. This is my third time saying this so apparently you don't understand that you were a slave to sin before coming to Christ.

 

[LC627]

T

Man was good till the fall....
We all deserve hell....

So which reformed church do you go to?
Presbyterian?
Baptist Reformed?

Yes we all deserve Hell, myself included, I stand guilty before God for my sin and God would be justified to send me to Hell if it was not for Christ. Why does it matter which church I attend? I see that often on here during debates, oh what church do you attend, blah blah. Are we not all the body of Christ? Since you seem to know me so well I think you have it already in your mind where I attend

 

[GodsGrace]

This passage should not be taken out of context to suggest or *prove* that God has predestined some for salvation and others for damnation. That would simple nullify the Gospel. Here is what is stated in verse 18:Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

So the real issue is whether God will have mercy on all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And the Bible is very clear that God will indeed have mercy on all who obey the Gospel. Here are the words of Christ (John 3:17): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

But He will harden the hearts of those who will not respond to the Gospel and harden their own hearts (John 3:19): And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And that is where your next verse fits:

Amen.

They say God is full of grace and a loving God, and then in the next breath I have to hear that He also created evil and sin because: "who are you o man"!

 

[Enoch111]

Why did Paul ask this? Because he just made the statement in (Rom. 9:8-13) as to who the 'children of promise' are. And he showed that the children of promise are chosen according to election before they are ever born into this life. (9:11)

This does not nullify the Gospel. Why would it?

Because:
(1) All people are sinners
(2) Christ died for all mankind
(3) All are commanded to repent
(4) All are commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
(5) Eternal life is offered to "whosoever" (anyone and everyone)
(6) God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
(7) God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So using Romans 9 to nullify the Gospel is simply dishonest.

Therefore let's look at verses 8:... but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This needs to be connected to Galatians 3 & 4: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham...For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

What is Paul teaching here? That the children of promise within the Abrahamic covenant are all those who put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And since "WHOSOEVER" may take of the water of life freely, it is impossible that Roman 9 can be subverted to conform to Calvinistic theology.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

And this brings us back to whom the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit draw to Christ. ANYONE AND EVERYONE.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. You have erred with the context. The context goes back to (Rom. 9:14) "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. "

Why did Paul ask this? Because he just made the statement in (Rom. 9:8-13) as to who the 'children of promise' are. And he showed that the children of promise are chosen according to election before they are ever born into this life. (9:11)

This does not nullify the Gospel. Why would it?

Stranger

It nullifies the gospel because what is the good news then??

That God chose some to salvation and some to damnation.
You're a calvinist Stranger - you could stop denying it and telling me to stop worrying about it.

@Enoch111 is right on with what he posted.
God's elect are the Jewish nation NOT those whom HE predestined from before time for salvation.

God draws ALL MEN to Him NOT just a select few.

Romans 1:19-20
God has always made Himself be known to man through His creation.

I firmly believe that we are to adhere to the bible and not to ANY man-made doctrine.
2 Timothy 4:3

 

[GodsGrace]

What is TTYTT?

Actually, individually is exactly what (Rom. 9:6-13) is addrdessing. "...the are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called....For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand....Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

You can't get more individual or plainer than that.

Stranger

to tell you the truth.

Romans 9 to 11 is all about Israel and not individual salvation.
Look it up if you so dare.

Paul is addressing the jews and telling them from whom the seed comes from and what it means to be of the seed and if everyone thinks they are of Abraham only because they are born Jews.
Romans 2:28

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry but I do not see it like that. That is a stretch of the scriptures. God will have mercy on whom He will and He will harden whom He will. There is not unrighteousness with God.

Does it by chance depend on anything the person does, or does God just arbitrarily harden whom He will and save whom He will?
Romans 2:28

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy based on whether or not that person adhered to God's commandments.

God is not a God of confusion: He let's us know what He wants from us ...
Why else reveal Himself to us?