Who Does The Father Draw?

[GodsGrace]

You seem angry...are you?

(John 6:37) is not my writing. You say I can't have it both ways, well then, cut (6:37) out of your Bible. For it addresses both ways. And I personally am glad it does.

Both statements are true. All that the Father gives to the Son will come to Him. And anyone who comes will be received. That is a glorious truth full of comfort for those who fear they are not drawn of God to the Son. If one has come to Christ they can know that they are received and drawn and shall not be turned away.

I know you hate Calvinism. We have had discussions before. I know you want to label me a Calvinist because I hold to election. I do believe some things in Calvinism. But not all. I don't believe I am making up my own rules. In the course of Bible study I come to certain conclusions. I have never been locked into any certain Theological System, though I favor some more than others.

You ask what I mean by God electing us? Again, (John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...." You ask where does mans will come into play? (John 6:37) "....and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Do you believe it is mans will that will prevail over God's will?

Stranger

I think this is the post...

No, I'm not angry. I was trying to get you to admit to one or the other.
HOW could it be both?
Is God Father deciding who to draw to Christ?
Or is He drawing everyone to Christ and then the person decides?

If you answer yes to the first question, then you are calvinist whether you wish to believe so or not. It cannot be both. I believe I'm having this conversation with another poster also.

I believe it's the second choice.
God draws all men to Himself, and some will decide of their own free will, to obey Him and follow Him and some will decide not to. God does not force anyone to follow Him. Love must be given freely or it is not love.
John 3:16
2 Peter 3:9

As to John 6:37 we should be careful how that is taken because in other places it says that we get to God by going through Jesus.
John 14:6

verse 6:37 says that ALL that the Father gives to Jesus --- all those to whom the Father has revealed Himself (all the world) who choose to serve God will be given to Jesus so as to learn from Him. We are disciples of Jesus and HE reveals God Father to us.

In verse 29 Jesus tells those listening that the work of God is that they believe on Him whom He has sent --- this being Jesus. It's clear that the decision is left to those listening.

God does not pick and choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.
He is loving and merciful and gives us a say in the matter.

 

[Stranger]

I'm sorry if I missed a post of yours. I'm not on here long enough and this happens to me at times.

I see on these threads much hate speech toward Catholicism and it's a faith that believes in a loving and merciful God.

Why do we not dislike a faith that believes in a monster of a god that chooses who He will save and who He will damn. Are we, the rest of Christianity, in agreement with this depiction of our God? I do believe we should dislike calvinism more than catholicism, if a choice is to be made.

If 1 John 4:8 is correct...
How could anything they believe also be correct?

That verse doesn't say that God LOVES...
It says that God IS love. His very nature is love.
A calvinistic God is not a God of love.

I am certainly not anti-Catholic or anti-Romanist as I like to say. There are many Christians in the Roman Church. Many of their doctrines I will argue against just as I do many Protestant doctrines.

As far as Calvinism, it is certainly wrong in the doctrine of 'limited atonement'. For the blood of Christ was sufficient for all born of Adam to take away their sins.

Yes, God is love. (1 John 4:7-8) is clear. But though God is love, some still go to hell or eternal separation from Him. Though they go by their own choice, does that take away from God being love?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger,
I'm sorry if I offended you my brother, yes, this doctrine gets me worked up and my take on it is very firm. Nothing will ever push me away from God. I am so afraid this will get into the minds of those who are weaker in the faith but, seems I will leave this alone as there is lot's of confusion on the part of others and being as it is so divisive, I will wimp out and keep my opinions to myself here.
Be blessed
-nancy

No offence taken at all. Election is a doctrine that should not be taught to new believers who have just come into the faith. Nor should it be pushed on those who reject it. This of course is why I say forums are not for new believers or for weak believers. Myself, I hold to election and believe it glorifies God. I don't see it making God a monster or taking away from Him in anyway. And I believe it is a great picture of the grace of God.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

I am certainly not anti-Catholic or anti-Romanist as I like to say. There are many Christians in the Roman Church. Many of their doctrines I will argue against just as I do many Protestant doctrines.

As far as Calvinism, it is certainly wrong in the doctrine of 'limited atonement'. For the blood of Christ was sufficient for all born of Adam to
take away their sins.


Yes, God is love. (1 John 4:7-8) is clear. But though God is love, some still go to hell or eternal separation from Him. Though they go by their own choice, does that take away from God being love?

Stranger

Hi Stranger,
God made Hell purposely for Satan and his angels
Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. God never changes and He is Love so, that love is forever. He is also just and will not, cannot stand for any sin of any kind so, I would say that the person has the onus on themselves and will, by default really, either go to Hell because they did not choose The only Way, The only Truth and The only Life=Jesus.

 

[Nancy]

That is the trouble that I was talking about many posts back. You and GodsGrace are so caught up with this Calvin diversion you can't see anything else.

I said earlier that I was not posting about Calvin or cared about Calvin and if I knew that this thread was all about " we hate Calvin" then I wouldn't have bothered posting in it...any more than I like the "we hate catholics" threads.

That said...If you go back and re read my post #77 ( and forget anything that Calvin said...) I was referring to a line that your posted to our friend Mjr29 in your post #71 ...I know you were talking about salvation...but you used the words there is no election. I was questioning this.

In that post #77
I am speaking about people who can't see anything further in God's word than 'their salvation...Most , I'd say 90% of what Paul writes is nothing about salvation at all, but about our calling and election in Christ, and being the Overcomer's found in Revelation 3 ...which, we can miss out on...but our salvation is secure.
But, no worries either way...maybe I should just opt out of this thread. It has too much concern about what Calvin did or didn't believe. I'm in the wrong thread.."for me." Others probably enjoy it.

I am headed to bed now...I expect you are too.
Bless you , and sleep well....H

Good morning Helen!
Just a last note hear, I don't hate any persons, just the erroneous teaching and what it can do. I can say this as I lived under constant condemnation (in my own mind) for years. I bought the lie. I am no longer sucking my thumb and feel like I should advocate for weaker Christians, like I myself once was. But I am truly finished here, it is not worth the division! Cause I love YOU guys

 

[Nancy]

No offence taken at all. Election is a doctrine that should not be taught to new believers who have just come into the faith. Nor should it be pushed on those who reject it. This of course is why I say forums are not for new believers or for weak believers. Myself, I hold to election and believe it glorifies God. I don't see it making God a monster or taking away from Him in anyway. And I believe it is a great picture of the grace of God.

Stranger

"Myself, I hold to election and believe it glorifies God. I don't see it making God a monster or taking away from Him in anyway. And I believe it is a great picture of the grace of God."

And I believe the opposite is true. I see no grace allowing a newborn baby who lives a couple months, or a year getting thrown to hell just because they were not on some elite "election" list. How is that grace of any kind? How does that glorify God? It makes me want to cry, not rejoice.
I really must stay off this thread...cannot help myself when I see certain things being spoken as truth.
Bless you,
-nancy

 

[Stranger]

I think this is the post...

No, I'm not angry. I was trying to get you to admit to one or the other.
HOW could it be both?
Is God Father deciding who to draw to Christ?
Or is He drawing everyone to Christ and then the person decides?

If you answer yes to the first question, then you are calvinist whether you wish to believe so or not. It cannot be both. I believe I'm having this conversation with another poster also.

I believe it's the second choice.
God draws all men to Himself, and some will decide of their own free will, to obey Him and follow Him and some will decide not to. God does not force anyone to follow Him. Love must be given freely or it is not love.
John 3:16
2 Peter 3:9

As to John 6:37 we should be careful how that is taken because in other places it says that we get to God by going through Jesus.
John 14:6

verse 6:37 says that ALL that the Father gives to Jesus --- all those to whom the Father has revealed Himself (all the world) who choose to serve God will be given to Jesus so as to learn from Him. We are disciples of Jesus and HE reveals God Father to us.

In verse 29 Jesus tells those listening that the work of God is that they believe on Him whom He has sent --- this being Jesus. It's clear that the decision is left to those listening.

God does not pick and choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell.
He is loving and merciful and gives us a say in the matter.

Concerning (John 6:37), it is clear that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;". There is no way to interpret this any other way than the Father gives some. He is not saying the Father gives all. He says "All that the Father gives".

But (John 6:37) is equally clear saying, "...and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." There is no way to interpret this any other way than any who come to Christ shall be saved. There will never be anyone in hell who wanted to get saved; who wanted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

In other words, the first part of (John 6:37) does not negate the second part. And the second part does not negate the first part. Both are true.

I believe you have a wrong overall view of election. You seem to seeing God in Heaven looking down on earth at all these fallen humans all over the place. He then randomly picks this one for heaven and this one for hell.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger,
God made Hell purposely for Satan and his angels
Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. God never changes and He is Love so, that love is forever. He is also just and will not, cannot stand for any sin of any kind so, I would say that the person has the onus on themselves and will, by default really, either go to Hell because they did not choose The only Way, The only Truth and The only Life=Jesus.

Yes He did. And He never changes. That is correct. And He is just. And those who reject Christ's sacrifice will go to hell by their own choice. But though God in his judgement of them sends them to hell, He is still a God of love...correct?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

I am certainly not anti-Catholic or anti-Romanist as I like to say. There are many Christians in the Roman Church. Many of their doctrines I will argue against just as I do many Protestant doctrines.

As far as Calvinism, it is certainly wrong in the doctrine of 'limited atonement'. For the blood of Christ was sufficient for all born of Adam to take away their sins.

Yes, God is love. (1 John 4:7-8) is clear. But though God is love, some still go to hell or eternal separation from Him. Though they go by their own choice, does that take away from God being love?

Stranger

So we agree?
If you don't agree with Limited Atonement, you can't agree with anything else Calvin taught.

Those who go to hell go of their own decision.
RIGHT! So it is NOT God sending them there because He so decreed it in His predestinating EVERYTHING that happens, as Calvinists believe.

So we agree. So is there a problem with your using language that represents what you believe? For instance, keeping predestination narrowed to HOW salvation happens and not to WHOM it happens?

P.S. If one goes to hell of his own choice, it does NOT take away from God being a God of love. God is also a just God and whoever does not accept His free gift of salvation will be lost.

God ceases being a God of love when HE, through no fault of the person, sends those whom HE will to hell through no condition. That's why it's called Unconditional Election in Calvinism --- election based on nothing.

 

[Stranger]

"Myself, I hold to election and believe it glorifies God. I don't see it making God a monster or taking away from Him in anyway. And I believe it is a great picture of the grace of God."

And I believe the opposite is true. I see no grace allowing a newborn baby who lives a couple months, or a year getting thrown to hell just because they were not on some elite "election" list. How is that grace of any kind? How does that glorify God? It makes me want to cry, not rejoice.
I really must stay off this thread...cannot help myself when I see certain things being spoken as truth.
Bless you,
-nancy

Well, perhaps it can be shown as it progresses that there is grace in it.

Consider this. The world was full of people in Noah's day. Men, women, children, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, infants, adolescents, adults. Yet only Noah was seen as 'righteous' before God and thus his family saved in the Ark.

Was God just in destroying all those on the earth at that time, no matter what age they were? Did that take away from the love of God? Did that take away from the grace that God showed Noah and his family?

Stranger

 

[aspen]

All humans are elected.

 

[GodsGrace]

Concerning (John 6:37), it is clear that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;". There is no way to interpret this any other way than the Father gives some. He is not saying the Father gives all. He says "All that the Father gives".

But (John 6:37) is equally clear saying, "...and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." There is no way to interpret this any other way than any who come to Christ shall be saved. There will never be anyone in hell who wanted to get saved; who wanted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

In other words, the first part of (John 6:37) does not negate the second part. And the second part does not negate the first part. Both are true.

I believe you have a wrong overall view of election. You seem to seeing God in Heaven looking down on earth at all these fallen humans all over the place. He then randomly picks this one for heaven and this one for hell.

Stranger

No Stranger.
Let's please get this straight.
I'm trying to explain to you what CALVINISTS think... NOT WHAT I THINK.

God does NOT choose who will be saved and who will be lost.
God makes Himself known to ALL. Then we, as individuals, decide whether or not we want to be saved.

Calvinists are the ones you described in your post above... God sitting there in heaven deciding who will go with Him and who will go to hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, perhaps it can be shown as it progresses that there is grace in it.

Consider this. The world was full of people in Noah's day. Men, women, children, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, infants, adolescents, adults. Yet only Noah was seen as 'righteous' before God and thus his family saved in the Ark.

Was God just in destroying all those on the earth at that time, no matter what age they were? Did that take away from the love of God? Did that take away from the grace that God showed Noah and his family?

Stranger

Here we go again.
You post conflicting thoughts.
Biblical history starts with Abraham, first of all.
Some kind of flood did happen. People of those times attributed everything to the God that had revealed Himself to them.

As to the flood...if God is sovereign and knows all things, did He not know that man would become sinful? Did He change His mind and decide to kill off all humanity? Was He surprised at man's sinning?

How would YOU explain it?

 

[Stranger]

To GodsGrace concerning post #109 (sorry, tried to fix a double post and messed it up)

Yes I disagree with limited atonement. But I hold to the doctrine of election.

Predestination concerns an aspect of salvation after one is saved. The believer is being conformed into the image of Christ. The believer is grown into the age where he is being placed as an adult son, known as adoption. Election concerns God's choosing and placing the believer in Christ.

I agree, when one goes to hell, it does not take away from God's love as they chose to reject Jesus Christ. Everyone who goes to hell, it will be due to a fault of theirs.

Stranger[/QUOTE]

 

[GodsGrace]

All humans are elected.

That's an interesting idea.
Actually when the bible speaks of the elected, it's speaking to the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews, who were elected by God to be His chosen people through whom He would make Himself manifest.

Romans chapters 9 to 11 speaks to this, but some have taken it to mean individual election. Romans is speaking to corporate election.

 

[Nancy]

Yes He did. And He never changes. That is correct. And He is just. And those who reject Christ's sacrifice will go to hell by their own choice. But though God in his judgement of them sends them to hell, He is still a God of love...correct?

Stranger

"But though God in his judgement of them sends them to hell, He is still a God of love...correct?" I don't see it that way, people choose un-belief, therefore they send themselves just because of the sin of unbelief. I believe God's heart breaks each time an unbeliever dies before repenting as much as their is rejoicing in the Heavens when a sinner does repent.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I disagree with limited atonement. But I hold to the doctrine of election.

Predestination concerns an aspect of salvation after one is saved. The believer is being conformed into the image of Christ. The believer is grown into the age where he is being placed as an adult son, known as adoption. Election concerns God's choosing and placing the believer in Christ.

I agree, when one goes to hell, it does not take away from God's love as they chose to reject Jesus Christ. Everyone who goes to hell, it will be due to a fault of theirs.

Stranger

OK. Your second paragraph is correct. Predestination is speaking of HOW one is saved. It speaks to exactly what you've quoted...that we are made holy and/or being conformed into the image of Jesus. THIS is what was predestined,,,NOT WHO is predestined...which is what CALVINISTS believe.

We are also predestined to be called SONS OF GOD. Correct. We are not predestined INDIVIDUALLY to salvation ---which is what Calvinists believe.

Am I asking too much to be careful in how we speak?

 

[Stranger]

No Stranger.
Let's please get this straight.
I'm trying to explain to you what CALVINISTS think... NOT WHAT I THINK.

God does NOT choose who will be saved and who will be lost.
God makes Himself known to ALL. Then we, as individuals, decide whether or not we want to be saved.

Calvinists are the ones you described in your post above... God sitting there in heaven deciding who will go with Him and who will go to hell.

I am not arguing Calvinism. Do you reject (John 6:37) because of Calvinism? What did I say concerning (John 6:37) that is wrong?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Here we go again.
You post conflicting thoughts.
Biblical history starts with Abraham, first of all.
Some kind of flood did happen. People of those times attributed everything to the God that had revealed Himself to them.

As to the flood...if God is sovereign and knows all things, did He not know that man would become sinful? Did He change His mind and decide to kill off all humanity? Was He surprised at man's sinning?

How would YOU explain it?

But, was God just in destroying millions of people on the earth by the flood? Was He a God of love when He did it?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not arguing Calvinism. Do you reject (John 6:37) because of Calvinism? What did I say concerning (John 6:37) that is wrong?

Stranger

But you sometimes speak like one.
This is why I was so confused with your beliefs when I first came on to this forum. I could hardly reply to you because I couldn't understand your position. Now I understand it better, I think.

John 6:37
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

To a calvinist (NOT ME) this means that GOD FATHER decides WHO will be given to Jesus and THOSE persons who God gives to Jesus will not be cast out. And Jesus died ONLY for them (limited atonement) not for the whole world as is quoted in John 3:16.

I think now that you and I both believe that God Father would will to give ALL MEN to Jesus, but they don't all want to go to Jesus. This is correct...just quoting John 3:16 supports this, and many other verses that show free will to accept God.

IOW, calvinists believe GOD chooses who will be saved and who will not be saved.
All other Christians believe that God gives to EVERYONE the chance to be saved.