Who Does The Father Draw?

[GodsGrace]

But, was God just in destroying millions of people on the earth by the flood? Was He a God of love when He did it?

Stranger

God is sovereign, as all Christians believe.
He can do whatever He wants to do. One day He'll decide to end the earth forever.
This does not make Him a mean God because He has declared this just as He declared that He desires obedience from humans and it's WE who did not believe or trust or obey Him.

The problem with calvinism is that God does not let man know HIS conditions so that who wants to can be saved. In fact, it is not a person's decision at all, but only God. THIS is what is not love.

 

[Nancy]

God is sovereign, as all Christians believe.
He can do whatever He wants to do. One day He'll decide to end the earth forever.
This does not make Him a mean God because He has declared this just as He declared that He desires obedience from humans and it's WE who did not believe or trust or obey Him.

The problem with calvinism is that God does not let man know HIS conditions so that who wants to can be saved. In fact, it is not a person's decision at all, but only God. THIS is what is not love.

Amen GG!

 

[Stranger]

OK. Your second paragraph is correct. Predestination is speaking of HOW one is saved. It speaks to exactly what you've quoted...that we are made holy and/or being conformed into the image of Jesus. THIS is what was predestined,,,NOT WHO is predestined...which is what CALVINISTS believe.

We are also predestined to be called SONS OF GOD. Correct. We are not predestined INDIVIDUALLY to salvation ---which is what Calvinists believe.

Am I asking too much to be careful in how we speak?

No, not at all. I just wish you would forget the Calvinist thing.

Election is not God looking down on earth and randomly choosing this or that one for heaven or hell. Election does concern the individual, because God knows the individual. God knows those who are of Him on the earth, even if they have not been saved yet.

After the fall of Adam, there are those who are of God and those who are not of God. Those that are of God, God chooses to place in Christ for their redemption. Those who are not of God, He does not.

Before going farther, I know you won't agree with it, but do you understand what I have said?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

No, not at all. I just wish you would forget the Calvinist thing.

Election is not God looking down on earth and randomly choosing this or that one for heaven or hell. Election does concern the individual, because God knows the individual. God knows those who are of Him on the earth, even if they have not been saved yet.

After the fall of Adam, there are those who are of God and those who are not of God. Those that are of God, God chooses to place in Christ for their redemption. Those who are not of God, He does not.

Before going farther, I know you won't agree with it, but do you understand what I have said?

Stranger

I understand it and agree with it 100%.

 

[Stranger]

God is sovereign, as all Christians believe.
He can do whatever He wants to do. One day He'll decide to end the earth forever.
This does not make Him a mean God because He has declared this just as He declared that He desires obedience from humans and it's WE who did not believe or trust or obey Him.

The problem with calvinism is that God does not let man know HIS conditions so that who wants to can be saved. In fact, it is not a person's decision at all, but only God. THIS is what is not love.

You said, "He can do whatever He wants to do." And, "He has declared this just".

But do you believe God is just and a God of love in doing this?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

You said, "He can do whatever He wants to do." And, "He has declared this just".

But do you believe God is just and a God of love in doing this?

Stranger

I replied yes.
And I explained why.

If I tell you not to enter my home at night or I'll shoot you, and you enter my home at night and I shoot you, is this love? Of course...I DID warn you!

If you enter my home at night and I never warned you....that is not love.

Noah was a righteous man and walked with God. But the others were wicked and did not obey God. So God DID give to Noah a chance to save himself. He told Noah to build the ark --- a prefigure of Jesus.

Genesis 7:1
Enter the ark, for you alone I have seen to be righteous.

God did give to Noah the chance to be saved...in calvin's theology, God does NOT give individual men the chance to be saved. This is not love.

 

[Stranger]

I understand it and agree with it 100%.

Those that are 'of God' God has known them in eternity past from the foundation of the earth. (Ehp. 1:4) And so has chosen them long before the foundation of the earth to place them in Christ.

The others, who God also knows are not of Him, He has not chosen to place in Christ.

Those who are of God and those who are not of God, will manifest who they are in exercising their will for or against Jesus Christ. The elect, will come to Christ, will be given by the Father to Christ. The non-elect will not come to Christ, will not be given by the Father to Christ.

So, you see in (John 6:37). "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Both statements are true.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I replied yes.
And I explained why.

If I tell you not to enter my home at night or I'll shoot you, and you enter my home at night and I shoot you, is this love? Of course...I DID warn you!

If you enter my home at night and I never warned you....that is not love.

Noah was a righteous man and walked with God. But the others were wicked and did not obey God. So God DID give to Noah a chance to save himself. He told Noah to build the ark --- a prefigure of Jesus.

Genesis 7:1
Enter the ark, for you alone I have seen to be righteous.

God did give to Noah the chance to be saved...in calvin's theology, God does NOT give individual men the chance to be saved. This is not love.

Therefore God is not a monster for destroying all those He did in the flood.

Understand we are told that Noah found 'grace' in the eyes of God. (Gen. 6:8) And in (Gen. 7:1) God says, "...for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."

This means Noah needed grace, and God 'sees' him as righteous, though he was not righteous in and of himself. Yes, he walked with God, but he needed grace.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Those that are 'of God' God has known them in eternity past from the foundation of the earth. (Ehp. 1:4) And so has chosen them long before the foundation of the earth to place them in Christ.

The others, who God also knows are not of Him, He has not chosen to place in Christ.

Those who are of God and those who are not of God, will manifest who they are in exercising their will for or against Jesus Christ. The elect, will come to Christ, will be given by the Father to Christ. The non-elect will not come to Christ, will not be given by the Father to Christ.

So, you see in (John 6:37). "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Both statements are true.

Stranger

Except that to Calvinists "All that the Father giveth Me" means that God decides who will and will not be given to Christ, IOW, saved.

I can't give up protesting against calvinism.
It changes the nature of God. The nature of God is love.
They claim God is love and gives man His grace, but then they deny it in their theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

Therefore God is not a monster for destroying all those He did in the flood.

Understand we are told that Noah found 'grace' in the eyes of God. (Gen. 6:8) And in (Gen. 7:1) God says, "...for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."

This means Noah needed grace, and God 'sees' him as righteous, though he was not righteous in and of himself. Yes, he walked with God, but he needed grace.

Stranger

We all need grace. Whatever we do, we do with God's grace.
In the O.T. men were righteous of themselves. It's in the N.T. that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ.

Psalm 1:5-6
Isaiah 26:7
Hosea 14:9

Abraham was righteous through belief:
Genesis 15:6
To David through obedience:
Psalm 103:17-18
For Isaiah:
Isaiah 61:11 Isaiah did understand more than the previous generations that Righteousness comes from God...but he still says that God CAUSED righteousness, not that He imputes it to us. Jesus had to die for that to happen.

The N.T.
1 Corinthians 1:30 Jesus is our righteousness.

 

[Mjh29]

Hi, its that annoyin Calvinist again
And, by definition, being elect is being chosen, not choosing.

 

[Mjh29]

The problem with calvinism is that God does not let man know HIS conditions so that who wants to can be saved. In fact, it is not a person's decision at all, but only God. THIS is what is not love.[/QUOTE]

God doesnt need to tell man. We already know. We are slaves to sin, and therefore CANNOT 'Choose God'

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. - Bible Hub
Bible Hub › romans

 

[Nancy]

Except that to Calvinists "All that the Father giveth Me" means that God decides who will and will not be given to Christ, IOW, saved.

I can't give up protesting against calvinism.
It changes the nature of God. The nature of God is love.
They claim God is love and gives man His grace, but then they deny it in their theology.

Oh it is hard to not comment on this thread when we have a passionate response and the truth of God screams FALSE DOCTRINE. Kk...no....more..........posts here! lol

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi, its that annoyin Calvinist again
And, by definition, being elect is being chosen, not choosing.

You're right, of course.
Elect means to choose.
We elect, or choose, our President when we vote.

Choosing, instead, has to do with free will.
You very well must know that you do not believe in free will.

So what do you do with verses that say the word "choose"?
To choose denotes having FREE WILL.
And we all know what free will means, no need to get into pages of trying to explain it.
Free will means I can choose to do something
OR
I can choose NOT to do something.

So what happens to Deuteronomy 30:19?

What about 2 Peter 3:9?

So much scripture has to be ignored for you to be right.

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem with calvinism is that God does not let man know HIS conditions so that who wants to can be saved. In fact, it is not a person's decision at all, but only God. THIS is what is not love.

God doesnt need to tell man. We already know. We are slaves to sin, and therefore CANNOT 'Choose God'

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. - Bible Hub
Bible Hub › romans[/QUOTE]
Sure, the wrath of God. So go down to verse 24.
Romans 1:24 God gave them over to their hearts of impurity.
What does this mean? God gave them what they WANTED.
They were FREE to be filled with all unrighteousness and God abandoned them...no where do we read that God CAUSED them to be haters of God...

They were haters of God because of how they FREELY behaved.

While you're in Romans look at Romans 3:23
Fall all have sinned and FALL SHORT of the glory of God.
No wording there as being TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

Then go to Romans 5:1
We have been justified BY FAITH.
No wording there about how God forced us to be justified.

Free will all the way from Genesis through Revelation.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Who does the Father draw?
Well, if I am any indication...idiots....and very slow learners.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who does the Father draw?
Well, if I am any indication...idiots....and very slow learners.

LOL
Which, I think, is ALL OF US!

 

[Nancy]

You're right, of course.
Elect means to choose.
We elect, or choose, our President when we vote.

Choosing, instead, has to do with free will.
You very well must know that you do not believe in free will.

So what do you do with verses that say the word "choose"?
To choose denotes having FREE WILL.
And we all know what free will means, no need to get into pages of trying to explain it.
Free will means I can choose to do something
OR
I can choose NOT to do something.

So what happens to Deuteronomy 30:19?

What about 2 Peter 3:9?

So much scripture has to be ignored for you to be right.

And don't forget this one:
Choose This Day Whom You Will Serve - Joshua 24:15

 

[Nancy]

Ruh-Roh...oops, I did it again!

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

A poster, @Philip James, made the following comment:

Indeed, and all are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...
But,
'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

What exactly does this mean?
Who does the Father draw?

That was about salvation. That was not about the wedding feast of the Lamb.

The Father is the One that draws men unto the Son to reveal the Son to them so they can believe in Him to be saved.

John 6:44 in context is about believing in Him is how one receives the bread of life and thus have eternal life, but the unbelieving Jews were stuck into thinking Jesus was talking about some literal bread to eat like their fathers did eat manna in the wilderness.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life.

So why can't the unbelieving Jews wrap that truth around their heads? That is what is meant that the Father draws those who seek Him unto the Son to believe in the Son to be saved. That is why those religious people could not see past themselves in saving themselves to God saving them.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Why does the Father draw some and not all? Because He knows they prefer their evil deeds rather than having Jesus reprove them of it in vs 19-20.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So verse 21 above shows that our believing in Him is the work of God Himself too!!!

Here is another example of how God knows whom is seeking Him from those that are not.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

His promise stands; all those that seek, shall find. That means no one is in hell because they would have believed if they had heard the gospel. Jesus Christ is Lord.