Who Falls From Grace & Who Falls Short Of It?
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Hi @Lifelong_sinner
If you could forget the OSAS & the papacy issues and say what you think it is to "fall from grace" & to "fall short of the grace of God", this would be appreciated.
Jamie Buckingham was faithfully pastoring and leading a congregation when he allowed himself to be drawn into an adulterous affair which he kept secret for as long as he could. When his board finally challenged him he confessed and was forced to resign. The news of his "fall" spread like wildfire and he was no longer welcome in any meetings in his area, nor could he cope with Christian gatherings, such was the shame he felt.
Eventually the LORD did a restoration work in him and led him to establish a ministry helping those in similar circumstances to "fall into God's grace" rather than remain fallen short of it.
The title of his book, "Where Eagles Soar" pertains to this verse
Isa 40:31 But those who wait on the LORD Shall renew their strength; They shall mount up with wings like eagles, They shall run and not be weary, They shall walk and not faint.
OSAS is the doctrine of devils those with itching ears take to themselves to make grace a license for sin, and is the deception Paul warns the saints and brethren about multiple times in his epistles.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
you cant fall from grace. You can back slide, but you cant ever lose your salvation. There is a difference between back sliders and false converts. Back sliders are still saved no matter what. False converts were never saved to begin with.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
people who are genuinely saved, wont keep sinning.
As a calvinist presbyterian, we follow the Westminster confessions. Might i remind you catholics what it says about you in chapter 25, section 6.
“Section 6.) There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.(1) Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; (but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God.(2)”
(1) Col 1:18; Eph 1:22 (2) Mt 23:8-10; 2Th 2:3,4,8,9; Rev 13:6
Romans 8 refutes OSAS completely.@Lifelong_sinner Romans 8.38-39 is so clear about the keeping power of Christ.
Romans 8:1 starts off with the fact that there’s no condemnation for those IN Christ Jesus.
Verse 4 makes clear that having no condemnation and being IN Christ, is conditional on not walking after the flesh, but after the spirit.
The fact that having no condemnation in verse 1 is dependent on not walking after the flesh, but after the spirit in verse 4, is so evident that the KJV translators added verse 4 to the end of verse 1, to make the passage more understandable:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8 - then goes on to explain the consequences of death if we let our flesh win the conflict between our Spirit and flesh:
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is DEATH, but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
In Galatians 5, Paul lists the works of the flesh, which DEFINES what is meant in Romans 8 - about walking after the flesh, instead of after the spirit, and warns that committing those sins of the flesh will keep believers out of heaven:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told you in time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 8 - is therefore clear that having no condemnation is conditional on living righteously as a believer and walking spiritually and not sinfully, after the flesh, and that if we choose to walk after the flesh instead of after the spirit we will die SPIRITUALLY and will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 8 - explains the consequences of death if we let the flesh win the conflict between our Spirit and flesh:
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is DEATH, but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:6, above, is talking about spiritual death - not physical death - as proven by the Galatians 5 text just given, and confirmed by the story of the prodigal son, who died spiritually while he was out in the world sinning:
In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, the son represents believers.
He’s already a son when the story starts.
He leaves the father to live in sin
When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.
Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.
He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.
How then was he dead?
He was dead in his sins.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who WERE DEAD in *trespasses and sins*
Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.
Therefore Romans 8 - instead of proving unconditional eternal security, has a warning to the brethren not to live carnally, after the flesh, or they will die spiritually, as the prodigal Son did.
And Verse 8:7 of Romans warns us that believers having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.
So does James:
James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.
The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.
The fact is that the correct exegesis of Romans 8 refutes, and does not teach, OSAS!
The abundance of grace and our exhortation to not misuse grace . . . Jesus is our high priest, able to save to the uttermost in that He ever lives to make intercession for us. Just as He continually intercedes on our behalf, He is also presenting God to us, ever calling us to better.
Much love!
And Jesus vomits out the lukewarm believer, Revelation 3:16.
Jesus also warns believers in the church of Sardis that they are a DEAD church (though they think they’re alive) and warns them that they must REPENT, because most of them had DEFILED their robes (white robes are the saints righteousness, says scripture) then warns them that those who fail to be OVERCOMERS will have their names BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE.
How are those in that church dead?
Not physically, obviously.
How then are they dead?
In their sins:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who were dead in trespasses and sins;
There’s no OSAS there.
The church at Laodicea was even worse off - they hadn’t just defined their white robes, which are the righteousness of saints - they lost their righteousness completely, thus had lost their robes, and were COMPLETELY NAKED, but didn’t even know it, because they thought they were still clothed and in need of nothing - and they are also warned to repent.
There’s no OSAS there, either.
Jesus never got the OSAS memo.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
The catholics dont understand salvation. They believe that you have to do good works to keep your salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Can catholics get saved?? Yes, absolutely. But not because they are catholic, but in spite of it. Once saved, ALWAYS saved.
The Bible contradicts the above opinion.
For the Galatians to become estranged from Christ they first had to know Him.
Gal 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
They began in the Spirit but like many after them fell into the observance of mere rites and ceremonies, and depended mainly on them for salvation.
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
There may be Catholics on this site, but I'm not. Ironically, add-ons and alternatives to grace typify Catholicism, the very thing this thread is opposing.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
i dont think you understand the difference between back sliders and false converts.
Those who live and die in sin and unbelief were never truly saved in the first place. Romans 8 is a mighty exhortation to the true believer, full of comforting assurance for the true believer, as are many other passages.
@Lifelong_sinner It's absurd for anyone to think the Bible teaches that one can be saved Tuesday, lost Wednesday, and saved again on Thursday, and who knows on Friday?
Romans 8.38-39.
NO if it did none of us would make it
This is a good example for this discussion. That's not actually what the passage says.
Jesus is assuring the overcomer that their name will not be blotted out from the book of life.
In saying, "then warns them that those who fail to be overcomers will have their names blotted out", this is saying an inverse statement as if it were the same statement, but it's not.
Can we agree to this point?
Much love!
This thread is about falling away and falling short, so it appropriate to examine Scriptures that reference this.
Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, (5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (6) if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (7) For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; (8) but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
The argument that people fall away because they were never really saved is a logical fallacy of composition, the paradox being they haven't fallen away from what they apparently didn't have.
Rather, in the above passage if the enlightened ones who had become partakers of the Holy Spirit and tasted of the good word of God and powers of the age to come, had continued faithfully instead of falling away they would have been saved. By falling away in the manner described they were no longer in a position to be saved but became like those who plotted against Christ and proceeded to have Him crucified.
do you believe your salvation is secure in Christ ? do you go to bed at night knowing if you fail to wake up. your in the presence of the Lord. or do you go to bed hoping you dont lose your salvation?
the doctrine of eternal security can be biblically if taught in the right manner . far to many worry about losing salvation. instead of focusing on our walk with Christ. Jesus said no MAN can pluck of from the fathers hand . yet man will turn around and say we can remove ourselves. if we willingly walk away was we truly saved to start with ? while i am not a die hard osas teacher. i do know in who i have believed For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
really how well ahve you studied this out ? or is this just your assumption due to you just dont believe osas.
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul says they had heard him preach the gospel, had received it, and stand in it, and they are saved:
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved,
EXCEPT...
Paul’s next words make their salvation conditional, by warning them that though they’d heard the gospel, received it, stand in it, and ARE SAVED, that they can end up believing IN VAIN, ifthey don’t keep in mind all that he taught them:
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, IFye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN.
What was it that Paul taught them that they had to keep in memory that he had preached to them, that can affect their salvation, and cause their receiving the gospel, standing in it, and being saved, to be IN VAIN?
He taught them that he has to control and subjugate his flesh daily, lest after preaching to others, he himself would end up a CASTAWAY - adokimos in the Greek. - a reprobate (rejected by God as one that failed the test).
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Albert Barnes exegetes the text:
“The simple idea of Paul is, that he was afraid that he should be disapproved, rejected, cast off; that it would appear, after all, that he had no religion, and would then be cast away as unfit to enter into heaven”.
By subjugation of his body, Paul refers to the flesh, the fleshly desire to sin, i e, commit works of the flesh, as seen in another of Paul’s warnings to the saints, to the brethren against being DECEIVED:
Gal 5:16 This - I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told YOU in time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
He also warned the brethren to examine themselves to see if they were still in the faith, or had become reprobate:
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Paul in fact gave warning after warning to the brethren, to be not deceived, about the consequences of living a lifestyle of sinning, such as being an adulterer, or drunkard, or thief, etc.
He warned the brethren that some of them were THIEVES because they’d defrauded their brethren, then warned the church against being deceived into thinking they could steal, or commit other serious sins, and still enter into the kingdom of heaven
1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD, and that your - BRETHREN.
1Co 6:9 Know yenot that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES (such as those who DEFRAUD the BRETHREN) nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Notice in verse 11 he states that some of the brethren used to live that way, but stopped after salvation - but we’ve already seen that some of them were ALSO living in sin by defrauding their brethren and stealing from them:
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
There’s no OSAS in Paul’s many warnings to the brethren and saints about living sinfully as believers.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE YOU with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the childrenof disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.
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