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Truther

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Acts 16:15
And when she was baptized, and herhousehold, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

it does not say accept infants!
Repentance and faith was tossed out for infant baptism?
 

Renniks

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Then why does he lose 500 disciples over it instead of simply explaining it Spiritually cos he meant it “this is my body” and in the Passover you have to eat the lamb

Where does it say he lost 500 disciples?

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

It could not be spelled out more clearly. He lost "disciples" who were following him because of the miracle. Because they understood this man could give them free stuff. They didn't come to him for spiritual food, and had no interest in taking up their crosses and following him.
 

Truther

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I have supper every night. What he said to copy was to eat the bread in remembrance of his sacrifice. Not just eat a meal.
1 Cor 11 shows the saints celebrating it as a meal.
 

theefaith

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Where does it say he lost 500 disciples?

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

It could not be spelled out more clearly. He lost "disciples" who were following him because of the miracle. Because they understood this man could give them free stuff. They didn't come to him for spiritual food, and had no interest in taking up their crosses and following him.

estimated about 500
 

BreadOfLife

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The disciples didn't drink literal blood and neither do we. They didn't eat literal flesh and would have been horrified at the thought. Christ may be present in the elements without the elements being anything other than what they are.
Jesus' words should be seen in the context of many parables and figurative references. For example, Jesus says, "I am the Vine" (John 15:1), the Door (John 10:9), the Bread (John 6:41). Jesus' main method of teaching was through parables; for Jesus, parables were not the exception but the rule, though when necessary he explained the parables to his disciples (Mark 4:34).
WEAK comparison.

For one thing – Jesus is a person with a BODYNOT a “vine”, and NOT a “door”.
HOWEVER. at the Last Supper, He said “This is my body.” He didn’t say, “This is a doorknob or this is a branch.

And it’s not muscle and tissue that we consume – but His flesh given to us SACRAMENTALLY in the accidents of bread and wine.
Jesus held the bread in his hand when he said "This is my body," at the same time that the disciples could see his physical body. There was a clear distinction between the two. The context therefore requires a figurative interpretation.
The phrase "this cup is a new covenant" (Luke 22:20) surely doesn't mean that the physical cup is the new covenant. That phrase is clearly symbolic and figurative. So are the words about the bread being Jesus' body.
John 6:27-59 uses bold terms to explain a spiritual feeding on Christ. This passage concludes, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life" (John 6:63), suggesting a figurative feeding rather than a literal, bodily feeding.
WRONG.
To make His point understood – Jesus used hyperbolic language here so that the people would realize that He wasn’t kidding.

The usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”, however, this is NOT the word used in these passages. In John 6:53-56, he uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal. He was conveying to the crowd that He meant what he said.
Just as the Manna and the Paschal Lamb were to be consumed, it is also true for the Lamb of God.

As to your remark about John 6:63 – Jesus WASN’T telling them that He was speaking only in a spiritual sense. In the very NEXT verse, He clarifies this:

John 6:64
“But there are some of you who do not believe.”

He is telling them that the REASON some of them aren’t accepting what He is telling them is because they DON’T think on a spiritual level – nut only human level. This is why He says in the next verse:

John 6:65
"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

THEN, in the next verse (v. 66)MOST of them walk away and return to their former way of life.
The Real Presence (rather than a spiritual presence) in the elements isn't taught in the early church for at least 75 years and perhaps twice that. If the Real Presence and transubstantiation were the church's primitive understanding, you'd expect much earlier a clear exposition of this doctrine. Even after an understanding of the Real Presence was common, many Church Fathers recognized a spiritual interpretation of the Words of Institution.
WRONG.
Paul talks very clearly about this.

In 1 Cor. 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly:
1 Cor. 11:27-30
“Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

This is pretty harsh language for something that YOU claim is only a symbol.

Finally, as to your last commen in RED - EVERY Church Father is UNANIMOUS in their aceptance of the Real Presence.
NONE of them dissented on this belief.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Because you think children are only newborn babies, not willing offspring.
No - because YOU think that "children" refers ONLY to the older ones.
God doesn't discriminate by age . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Circumcision is now of the heart.
Repentance is the operating table per this divine surgery.
Babies are not qualified for this surgery.
Only repentant sinners are.
Much rituals have made thee mad.
And that's why discussions with YOU are so comical . . .

YOU yourself have repeatedly stated that babies are sinless and are NOT in need of Baptism.
To be without sin is what we STRIVE for - so WHY would you deny that children who are Baptized don't have a circumcised heart?

It's as stupid as claiming that a Jewish boy hasn't been circumcised because he hasn't "earned" it.
What color is the sky in your world??
 

BreadOfLife

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I read all your posts, irregardless of their personal insults, till the first lie appears, then i respond to only that one, as in that way, im responding to what follows next in your post, all the way to the end of them all.
Now, breadoflife,....Let me give you something to think about.
= The JW's and you, and your church and your denomination believe that without H20 (water) there is no Salvation.
AS all water cults teach that the Spirit of God comes, once the water is involved.
So, that is water cult theology.
"God can't do anything without the water".
And all the water cults teach that the Flood of Destruction that God sent in GENESIS 6.. is the LITERAL savior of Noah and family and barn yard.

Now, think........ if water is the savior, the why didnt Noah and his family get in the water?
Why were they kept out of the water, breadoflife?
If water is the baptismal redemption as you rant, , then why did God keep Noah and family OUT OF THE WATER.. for 40 days and nights at least, while God killed everything with water.?

Did you notice that Noah was not allowed to get into what you and all water cults claim is " water regeneration"?
Yet, Noah and family were kept OUT of the Water, by God.
No immersion.
No sprinking.
No "baptismal regeneration"
God kept them OUT of what you say God must use to save YOU.....= water.

Think on that.
As I told you in my last post - try being honest - for a change.
I'm sure you have interesting things to talk about - if ONLY you could STOP lying.

Your comments above in RED are just another example of your asinine drivel and have NO basis in fact.
The Church has never taught this nonsense - but YOU'LL continue to repeat these lies.

I don't kow what motivates you - but it certainly isn't the Holy Spirit.
Once again, I implore you to read Exod 20:16, 1 Cor. 6:9 and Rev. 21:8 to see how God disapproves of lies. and condemns those who lie.
 

Philip James

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If this is referring to the Eucharist, it would mean that if anyone takes it, they are eternally saved.

Dear Renniks,

Those who partake worthily, and by God's Grace, endure in faith, hope and charity to the end of their course are indeed 'eternally saved'.

Hence our referring to the Eucharist as the Bread of Life, the Cup of Salvation, the medicine of immortality...

For those who come to the Feast unworthily, Jesus gives this warning:

He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence.

Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.'


You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast if the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
 

Philip James

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That's a mass?

It just looked like a supper.

Dear Truther,

Indeed,

Blessed are those who have been called to the wedding feast of the Lamb."

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
 

theefaith

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Dogma catholic and divine faith


186. The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are truly, really and substantially present in the Eucharist.
187. Christ becomes present in the Sacrament of the Altar by the transformation of the whole
substance of the bread into His Body and the whole substance of the wine into His Blood.
188. The Accidents of bread and wine continue after the change of the substance.
189. The Body and the Blood of Christ together with His Soul and His Divinity and therefore the
Whole Christ are truly present in the Eucharist.
190. The Whole Christ is present under each of the two Species.
191. When either consecrated species is divided the Whole Christ is present in each part of the species.
192. After the Consecration has been completed the Body and Blood are permanently present in the Eucharist.
193. The Worship of Adoration (latria) must be given to Christ present in the Eucharist.
194. The Eucharist is a true Sacrament instituted by Christ.
195. The matter for the consummation of the Eucharist is bread and wine.
196. For children before the age of reason the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.
197. Communion under two forms is not necessary for any individual member of the Faithful,
either by reason of Divine precept or as a means of salvation.
198. The power of consecration resides in a validly consecrated priest only.
199. The Sacrament of the Eucharist can be validly received by every baptized person in the
wayfaring state, including young children.
200. For the worthy reception of the Eucharist the state of grace as well as the proper and pious disposition are necessary.
201. The Holy Mass is a true and proper Sacrifice.
202. In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied.
203. In the Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Sacrifice of the Cross the Sacrificial Gift and the Primary Sacrificing Priest are identical; only the nature and mode of the offering are different.
204. The Sacrifice of the Mass is not merely a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, but also a sacrifice of expiation and impetration.
 

Renniks

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Dear Renniks,

Those who partake worthily, and by God's Grace, endure in faith, hope and charity to the end of their course are indeed 'eternally saved'.

Hence our referring to the Eucharist as the Bread of Life, the Cup of Salvation, the medicine of immortality...

For those who come to the Feast unworthily, Jesus gives this warning:

He said to him, 'My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?' But he was reduced to silence.

Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.'


You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast if the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!
I've already taken communion many times. It's not about salvation. And no verse claims that it is.
 

Renniks

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He is telling them that the REASON some of them aren’t accepting what He is telling them is because they DON’T think on a spiritual level – nut only human level. This is why He says in the next verse:
Exactly. It's spiritual, not physical. It's not physical blood and meat. They just wanted actual free food.
 

theefaith

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I've already taken communion many times. It's not about salvation. And no verse claims that it is.

how about these

jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

it is our salvation
All one piece
The last supper
The hymns
The agony in the garden
Christ on the the cross
His death and passion
Shedding his blood

its all our salvation
 

BreadOfLife

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Exactly. It's spiritual, not physical. It's not physical blood and meat. They just wanted actual free food.
WHAT are you talking about?
They didn't need any food - free or not.

They were shaken to the core about what He was telling them. They could NOT handle the fact that this man - whom they ALL believed had been sent by God was telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
Verse 52 tells us:
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

In verse 66, when they finally DID leave - what did Jesus say? Did He say - "Wait, you are misinterpreting what I am saying!"
NO - verse 67 says emphatically:
So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”

No explanation or clarification to the Apostles - as He ALWAYS did.
Jesus meant what He was saying - and the crowd simply couldn't handle it. The Apostles stuck around because, as Peter replied in verses 68-69:
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

Tragically - YOU'VE decised to number yourself with the crowd who abandoned Him in verse 66 - instead of the Apostles who STAYED and learned at the Last Supper what He was talking about.