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Renniks

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WRONG.
You're missing the big picture here.

These weren't casual doubters or they wouldn't have had to return to their FORMER way of life (John 6:66). They were His FOLLOWERS, but, as I tried to explain to you - He went too far in their view. He went from performing miracles and multiplying food right before their eyes and feeding them - to telling them that they NOW had to eat HIS flesh and drink HIS blood. THIS is why they grumbled among themselves and eventually abandoned Him.

According to YOUR nonsensical logic - they NEVER believed in Him - but gave up their livelihoods to followed Him for SOME crazy reason, then left him when He told them they needed to "spiritually consume" what He was saying.

This is an idiotic premise that makes absolutely ZERO sense. WHY would they walk away from that?? There is nothing "bizarre" in telling them that this was all just "spiritual talk" and purely symbolic.

No, when you read the Bread of Life discourse in John 6 in CONTEXT - there is only ONE possibility:
It is that Jesus was speaking LITERALLY and the crowd freaked out and walked away.

YOUR rationalization of John 6 is too silly to take seriously.
Your interpretation doesn't fit what the text actually says. First he indicates that all who are taught by his Father would come to him. These were the ones who had the Torah, they should have recognized him as Messiah from the prophecies. But, they didn't get it, because they were looking for a king to free them from the Romans. Right there in the text it tells us they wanted to make him a king by force. It wasn't that Jesus wasn't destined to be a king, but their motivation wasn't Godly. He says they were just there for the free food and that he is the bread they should want, not the physical food, and you try to say they were true followers? Please! Read your Bible in context and with common sense instead of just believing whatever nonsense your church has taught you.
 

Renniks

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NONE of what is written in John 6 even HINTS at the moronic idea that "eat my flesh" and "drink my blood" means "just believe in me".

There is absolutely NO REASON for the word "Trogon" to be used in these verses when talking about human eating - UNLESS Jesus is using hyperbole to make the point that he really means "EAT". WHY on earth would He use this verb for "believe".

Your argument is a house of cards that falls apart on linguistiuc grounds alone - not to mention the horrible logic and corresponding Scripture verses that support the Real Presense (Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–30).

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
See the Parallel verses?
It could not be more plain, but you are as blind as they were.
 

Renniks

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There is absolutely NO REASON for the word "Trogon" to be used in these verses when talking about human eating - UNLESS Jesus is using hyperbole to make the point that he really means "EAT". WHY on earth would He use this verb for "believe".
You make the same mistake the Jews did. You think this is about physical eating. Maybe your church could convince someone in the middle ages that the bread and wine actually became human flesh and blood in his belly, but no one believes that now. We know it's spiritual and yes, this includes your priest, otherwise he would be promoting cannibalism and would be arrested. It can be proved scientifically that the bread and wine are still bread and wine once you eat and drink them.
The Didache, written in the late-first or early-second century, referred to the elements of the Lord’s table as “spiritual food and drink” (The Didache, 9)
Was literal transubstantiation ever really a thing? Doubtful. What they said and what they meant weren't always clear, but I think they knew they were using spiritual language, not physical.
Athanasius (296–373) contended that the elements of the Eucharist are to be understood spiritually, not physically: “[W]hat He says is not fleshly but spiritual. For how many would the body suffice for eating, that it should become the food for the whole world? But for this reason He made mention of the ascension of the Son of Man into heaven, in order that He might draw them away from the bodily notion, and that from henceforth they might learn that the aforesaid flesh was heavenly eating from above and spiritual food given by Him.” (Festal Letter, 4.19)
 

theefaith

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No it isn't, that's the point.

commanded to eat his body and drink his blood

1 cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
 

Truther

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Matt. 19:14
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

YOUR anti-children campaign is precisely what Jesys was rebuking His Apostles for.
Nice work, Einstein . . .
The newborn babies were walking and running to Jesus?

I wish I could have been there to see that!


Fact is, Jesus only did this....


13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.


,,,not baptize them.

Any age is good for prayer.
 

theefaith

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The newborn babies were walking and running to Jesus?

I wish I could have been there to see that!


Fact is, Jesus only did this....


13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.


,,,not baptize them.

Any age is good for prayer.

they have a right to the new covenant and grace for such is the kingdom
 

Renniks

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commanded to eat his body and drink his blood

1 cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
The John 6 passage isn't about communion. It's about believing in the messiah.
 

theefaith

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The John 6 passage isn't about communion. It's about believing in the messiah.

really?

jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

1 cor 11: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

eat eat holy communion yes
 

Renniks

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really?

jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

1 cor 11: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

eat eat holy communion yes
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Partaking of the bread is a symbol of belief, but not what saves us. Belief saves.
 

theefaith

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29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Partaking of the bread is a symbol of belief, but not what saves us. Belief saves.

then why don’t you believe him? And do what he commands
Not those who say Lord Lord but those who do the will of God
Be ye diets not sayers
 

Renniks

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then why don’t you believe him? And do what he commands
Not those who say Lord Lord but those who do the will of God
Be ye diets not sayers
I do believe him. I believe the spiritual reality of his sacrificed flesh being for our spiritual nourishment.
But my physical diet doesn't include human flesh.

He was speaking of spiritual truth in John 6...that he was sent from God and not just the Carpenter's son. Most of them were thinking he was to be their Earthly King. That wasn't his mission. So they left him.
 

theefaith

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I do believe him. I believe the spiritual reality of his sacrificed flesh being for our spiritual nourishment.
But my physical diet doesn't include human flesh.

He was speaking of spiritual truth in John 6...that he was sent from God and not just the Carpenter's son. Most of them were thinking he was to be their Earthly King. That wasn't his mission. So they left him.
Really
 

BreadOfLife

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And you were going to explain your Jehovah's Witness doctrine that teaches that Water saved Noah.....which is water baptism by Immersion, when in fact, Noah and family never got into the water, but were told by God to stay in the Boat and OUT of the "immersion" that was killing every living thing on the earth.
So, show how water that never touched Noah is "water baptism" that you say saved Him.

Still waiting for that answer.
Start anytime you like, deceiver.
Gee - another blatant lie.

I guess you hve no fear of God - OR his warnings about the eternal consequestes to liars (1 Cor. 6:9 and Rev. 21:8).
Good luck with that . . .
 

theefaith

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Gee - another blatant lie.

I guess you hve no fear of God - OR his warnings about the eternal consequestes to liars (1 Cor. 6:9 and Rev. 21:8).
Good luck with that . . .

who was it who ever said “water saves”???
 

Behold

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Certainly not the Catholic Church - but @Behold seems to be in rebellon against God with his rejection of God's Commandment against bearing FALSE witness . . .

Water cults, (yours) teach that water has to be a part of the redemption process.
The water cult bible, Douay Rheims.... and the Jehovah Witness theology, (same thing), teach that water baptism has to be a part of redemption and that a person is "born again" BY water..
And of course thats a lie.

See, Paul does not teach that.... And the Gospel of the Grace of God does not teach that.. cultish nonsense.

So, you have some issues with your cult's theology that you are not able to explain.
You can't Explain why Noah was kept OUT of the Water, that you say saved him.
You can't explain why Peter and the 120 in the Upper Room were not water baptized, yet they all spoke with "tongues".
You can't explain why Abraham was not water baptized, and he is the "father of our faith".
You can't explain why every person in the Acts of the Apostles, BELIEVES ......and then are baptized in water...
= the water follows their conversion........it does not cause it.
You BELIEVE and are born again, then you get into the water, which is SYMBOLIC.

So, your church history and your church fathers and your church doctrine and your church handbook, can't help you.

You'll have to actually think for yourself , for once, and once you do, and you see the water cult as it exists, you'll have to decide what you are going to do.
My Advice, is to never stay in a water cult, even if you have been in it all your life.
 

Truther

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they have a right to the new covenant and grace for such is the kingdom
....after they repent.

You have Acts 2:38 backwards like this....Then Peter said be baptized, then repent 10 years later after your catechism and confession...
 

theefaith

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....after they repent.

You have Acts 2:38 backwards like this....Then Peter said be baptized, then repent 10 years later after your catechism and confession...

it has to be possible
Be reasonable not a weretched fundamentalist
Faith apart from reason =fundamentalist
Reason apart from faith = atheist
Both are wrong
 
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Truther

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it has to be possible
Be reasonable not a weretched fundamentalist
Faith apart from reason =fundamentalist
Reason apart from faith = atheist
Both are wrong
Don't "reason away" Acts 2:38 like the phony scholars are doing.

Be your own man.
 

Behold

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Don't "reason away" Acts 2:38 like the phony scholars are doing.

Be your own man.


Don't teach Acts 2:38 as the water cults do it..
Give that up.
Go with truth, instead.

Be a real believer who is in touch with the NT, and spread the Good News that is the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Let go of the water. Let go of the lie. Let go of self righteousness.

Find your way into the GRACE of God that is "Justification by Faith" as Jesus would have you understand it.

Throw away all your water cult commentaries and spend a year getting to know something real.
LIVE in : Hebrews 13:9 and then all of Paul's Epistles.
Then you'll have an actual theology that God would approve of, that isn't water cult Old Testament : Galatians 1:8