Who founded your church?

[Renniks]

What makes you think that God cannot save someone in a cult, He is quiet capable.

True... but not if they continue in the cults errors.

 

[Renniks]

Healing was refered to not eternal salvation
1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

all faith even alone avails nothing

Phil 1:29 not called to faith alone

But turning and seeing her, Jesus said, Daughter, be comforted; your faith has saved you. And the woman was saved from that hour."

Not just healed, but saved.

 

[theefaith]

No one is saved in this life but at the hour of death of faithful to Gods Grace matt 24:13

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ!
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...

Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love!
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Then Once saved always saved!

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

 

[Renniks]

No one is saved in this life but at the hour of death of faithful to Gods Grace matt 24:13

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ!
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...

Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love!
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Then Once saved always saved!

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

I'm not following. If we are not saved, now, we have no assurance Christ will never forsake us. In fact, in this scenario he foresakes us every time we sin. That's not the good news. Piecing together various verses with no context, blah, poor taste.

 

[theefaith]

I'm not following. If we are not saved, now, we have no assurance Christ will never forsake us. In fact, in this scenario he foresakes us every time we sin. That's not the good news. Piecing together various verses with no context, blah, poor taste.

Christ won’t forsake us unless we forsake him
We are his members but must remain faithful Jn 15:1

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

we receive the grace of justification then we must abide in Him obedience faithfulness unlit the end

 

[Renniks]

Christ won’t forsake us unless we forsake him
We are his members but must remain faithful Jn 15:1

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

we receive the grace of justification then we must abide in Him obedience faithfulness unlit the end

Yeah, we can foresake him, by falling into false teaching that denies he came in the flesh for example. But that's a different issue than works.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree. Demons do not accept Christ's sacrifice. They can't, because it's not for them. They don't trust in God, they only believe because they have no other choice. We must trust in his sacrifice to save us. Big difference. But our work merits nothing.

That's NOT what the Bible says.

The Bible assures us that the ONLY true faith is one that WORKS through love (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5:6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Matt. 25:21-46, Eph. 2:10, Rev 20:13). You cannot have trust without LIVING it . . .

 

[theefaith]

God did become man yes!

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

First, your church has not been consistent on the issue of penance. Some insisted that not all sins could be forgiven, adultery for example. Again how can one know how many acts of penance are enough? Because of some priests prescription?

You can not just sweep your churches history under the rug, and pretend it's all pretty.

Nobody is "sweeping" ANYTHING under the rug.
The plain fact is that the Church has NEVER taught what YOU are alleging.

WHY is it that you anti-Catholic cannot argue the facts??
Why do you ALWAYS need to resort to lying to make your points??

 

[theefaith]

That's NOT what the Bible says.

The Bible assures us that the ONLY true faith is one that WORKS through love (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5:6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Matt. 25:21-46, Eph. 2:10, Rev 20:13). You cannot have trust without LIVING it . . .

grace gives merit to faith and works
Faith hope and charity
The greatest is charity

 

[Philip James]

This is the mystery he has revealed to me, the question is can you hear what the Spirit is saying to the church?

Hello David,

Does the Truth change? If the Spirit taught our brothers something in 50 AD, 100 Ad...200 AD... can it then be untrue today? Here again is Ignatius:

Abstain from noxious herbs, which are not the
husbandry of Jesus Christ, because they are not the
planting of the Father. Not that I have found division
among you, but filtering.
For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ,
they are with the bishop; and as many as shall repent
and enter into the unity of the Church, these also
shall be of God, that they may be living after Jesus
Christ.
Be not deceived, my brethren. If any man
followeth one that maketh a schism, _he doth not
inherit the kingdom of God._ If any man walketh in
strange doctrine, he hath no fellowship with the
passion.

My question for you: can you humble yourself and submit to the correction of your brethren (the Church)?

Peace be with you!

 

[Renniks]

That's NOT what the Bible says.

The Bible assures us that the ONLY true faith is one that WORKS through love (James 2:14-26, Gal. 5:6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Matt. 25:21-46, Eph. 2:10, Rev 20:13). You cannot have trust without LIVING it . . .

Sigh... nobody said you can have true faith without it resulting in action. That doesn't equal works adding anything to our salvation.

James does not imagine that work is at odds with faith. There can be no “justification by works” because there can be no good works unless there is already faith (trust) in God. James doesn’t mean that faith can exist without works yet be insufficient for salvation. He means that any “faith” that doesn’t lead to works is dead; in other words, it is no faith at all. “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead” (James 2:26). James doesn’t command Christians to work for the benefit of others in need instead of placing faith in Christ, or even in addition to placing faith in Christ. He expects that Christians will work for the benefit of others in need as a result of placing faith in Christ.

 

[Philip James]

Sorry, must have missed it. Saw Alexandria and Constantinople.

Dear Brakelight,

well here it is again:

Abstain from noxious herbs, which are not the
husbandry of Jesus Christ, because they are not the
planting of the Father. Not that I have found division
among you, but filtering.
For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ,
they are with the bishop; and as many as shall repent
and enter into the unity of the Church, these also
shall be of God, that they may be living after Jesus
Christ.
Be not deceived, my brethren. If any man
followeth one that maketh a schism, _he doth not
inherit the kingdom of God._ If any man walketh in
strange doctrine, he hath no fellowship with the
passion.

But the church after fleeing Jerusalem went first to Pela then Antioch, and individuals from there continued to share and teach the gospel throughout the world, even as far as India, Vietnam, the Philippines, Japan and China. Also all along the famous silk road through Afghanistan, southern Russia, Mongolia. A long time before the Papacy set foot in any of those lands. And none of those churches had any contact or interest in Rome.
So the theory that Rome was the center of influence sole true authority for Christian thought and practice for 1500 years was nonsense. And I haven't even mentioned all those Christian communities within the reach of the Roman church but who never surrendered to papal authority such as the Waldensian.

Well, I have never suggested that Rome was the 'sole true authority for Christian thought and practice' so that is a strawman you are arguing with...

The Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria and the Church in Constantinople are 3 living 2000 year old witnesses to 'the deposit of faith delivered once for all to the saints'. Those things which are held be all (including the 7 sacraments), everywhere (i.e are catholic) are inarguably the Faith received from the apostles.

unless you have a 2000 year old community that says otherwise?

The Truth does not change...

Peace be with you!

 

[Renniks]

Nobody is "sweeping" ANYTHING under the rug.
The plain fact is that the Church has NEVER taught what YOU are alleging.

WHY is it that you anti-Catholic cannot argue the facts??
Why do you ALWAYS need to resort to lying to make your points??

Lying about what? That works of penance are part of Catholic teaching and "saint" are revered for doing them? You are seriously denying that?

"Saint" Francis De Sales for example, was known to use the discipline (self-flagellation, using a whip, rod, or lash), as well as an iron belt and hair-shirts.

"Saint" John Marie Vianney was known for his austerities in fasting, as well as frequent use of the discipline.
"Saint" Jose Maria Escriva often wore a cilice (a band of chain links with small prongs, typically worn around the upper thigh)

This isn't something that's debatable.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sigh... nobody said you can have true faith without it resulting in action. That doesn't equal works adding anything to our salvation.

James does not imagine that work is at odds with faith. There can be no “justification by works” because there can be no good works unless there is already faith (trust) in God. James doesn’t mean that faith can exist without works yet be insufficient for salvation. He means that any “faith” that doesn’t lead to works is dead; in other words, it is no faith at all. “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead” (James 2:26). James doesn’t command Christians to work for the benefit of others in need instead of placing faith in Christ, or even in addition to placing faith in Christ. He expects that Christians will work for the benefit of others in need as a result of placing faith in Christ.

No - you're still not getting it.

Works aren't not an "after effect" of faith. They are en essential element of faith itself.
That's what James is trying to explain to his readers is some detail (James 2:14-26). It's precisely what Jesus is talking about in the Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats (Matt. 25:31-46) and what Paul is describing in 1 Cor. 13:1-13.

You are forgetting that these "good works" are NOT works of our own - but works that GOD Himself prepared FOR us to do in advance (Eph. 2:10).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Lying about what? That works of penance are part of Catholic teaching and "saint" are revered for doing them? You are seriously denying that?

"Saint" Francis De Sales for example, was known to use the discipline (self-flagellation, using a whip, rod, or lash), as well as an iron belt and hair-shirts.

"Saint" John Marie Vianney was known for his austerities in fasting, as well as frequent use of the discipline.
"Saint" Jose Maria Escriva often wore a cilice (a band of chain links with small prongs, typically worn around the upper thigh)

This isn't something that's debatable.

- John the Baptist wore a hair shirt - and Jesus said of him that there was NONE greater.
- Fasting is a BIBLICAL discipline (Esth. 4:16, Exod. 34:28, Joel 2:12, Psalm 69:10, Matt. 6:16-18, Luke 2:37, Luke 4:2-4, Acts 13:3-4).
- The Bible speaks of wearing sackcloth to mortify the flesh (Psalm 35:13-14).

Of the mortification of his own flesh, Paul said:
1 Cor. 9:27
"I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected."

So, I'm NOT sure why YOU would chastise these Catholic saints for doing just that?

 

[Marymog]

No. I don't know what you mean about it not being well thought out. None of us know all Truth. Surely the pope doesn't know it anymore than we do.

"I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."

Seems pretty plain to me how to understand who is truly a heretic.

"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."

What teaching? The teaching that love is central and that Christ came in the flesh and lives in us... not that we know all there is to know.

Hey Renniks,

Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth sooooooo the Church must know the truth if it is the pillar and foundation of it.

Now all you have to do is find that Church!!

 

[Marymog]

They all do, IMO. I have attended various churches and studied on my own also. Some more than others. The Catholic IMO, add too much ritual and baggage that's non biblical, until there's a very real danger of people trying to work themselves into the kingdom by doing all the right rituals, people who may not have ever come to Jesus himself for salvation.

Fascinating....Thanks for your opinion.

Would you like to at least TRY and answer the other two questions I asked:

Who taught you what a false teaching is? Or are you self taught?

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

I Am Holy Spirit taught. He teaches me, and leads my thoughts, Most times using scripture, other times he leads me to other teachers that are Holy Spirit taught themselves. Most times, he has corrected my own thinking on these matters and shown me how these problems are prevalent in the church. For example, Like Hosea he has given me marital issues that have taught me the true meaning of Agape love and Christ's love for His church, and how he is waiting for his bride to submit to His will, which has illustrated the lack of submission in the churches who go about doing things according to the will of man as opposed to the will of God. Building grandiose monuments to the faith, whether cathedrals or protestant entertainment centers being among them.

I Was taught in the church's i was raised in that we were the Philadelphians, that we were the church that had no rebuke presented to them, which was indicative of the denial the Laodicean church is under known as complacency. This was the fate of the Fundamentalist missionary based churches of the 18th and 19th centuries that had textualism take over and divine revelation was lost on them. The Holy Spirit told me that this was a lie, that I am a Laodicean believer, and that all who are alive now who believe are Laodiceans, this least of the churches, and most rebuked. It was a wake up call as he convicted me of my denial, my wretchedness, my blindness, and spiritual nakedness. But when I accepted this conviction, I took the remedy prescribed to this church seriously, and he gave me the eyesalve to see, and the desire to repent from my self deception and denial that was perpetuated by these scribes in my churches which led to this denial.

He then took me into the wilderness where absent from all previous indoctrinization of the church he taught me the truth. I went into the wilderness with the heart willing to learn and he taught me, I went in with Pauline ignorance (A term I use in place of Socratic ignorance) To Know nothing save Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2), and he showed me the church, and the church ages, and how the church grows through these ages, and why he does this the way he does, how the seven Spirits of God are tied to each of these church ages, and how when they in the end unite, the fulness of Christ comes in, and how each of these churches ages brought in a progressive revelation that makes this whole, and how this final church age is the one that will bring to birth the saints of the millennial reign that will rule with Christ as a royal priesthood. There is so much to this I cannot even explain in a short comment, much of it he is still revealing to me, so I understand that I only Know in part the fulness of what is his plan for the church.

In that respect I do not deny the role of the Roman church in these church ages, for they have a big part in them forming large parts of that progressive history, and having those who have kept themselves pure from the corruptions of those church ages as that passed down from one age to the next. But I also see people like Luther and Wesley as part of this progressive revelation, and the Asuza street revival as the final church age being born. Each age got arrogant in their exclusivity, and in each case Nicolaitans took over those churches and each time God raised a remnant holy and desiring of the Him and the truth to reform the body to where we are now. Where we are now is the postmodern church absent from Truth, and disjointed, and disconnected, and in absolute chaos, But this is a blessing, because Unity of the Spirit will stand in contrast to this disjointed nature and shine the light on the flaws of the church leadership that has led to this, this being, in my opinion the finest hour of the saints of the church, But at the same time the tares will be exposed as their love waxes cold as they battle to keep their Nicolaitan power over the people, much like you all have done here trying to dictate dogma and promoting the hierarchy of the catholic church, which is not only a catholic problem but a problem in all the churches.

Re: Nicolaitanism. Nicolaitanism literally means to to rule over the laity, to conquer the laity. They are in Revelation a group of people who fell into Balaam's error. Balaam was a prophet who did so for personal gain, and placed a stumbling block before the people of Israel. This error takes many forms in the churches of men. From the earliest day this was a problem in the church, which Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians 3 when he spoke of the some being followers of Paul himself and some being followers of Apollos. Immediately he rebuke the Corinthian church, pointing all from men to God, saying he planted and Apollos watered, but God granted the growth.

It is in the fallen nature of men to lead and be led, for some to lord over the masses. This is a problem with human nature, but with those who are in Christ, we are all brethren. (See Matthew 23:4-12) We all know in part, not the whole, and in fellowship with those who know different parts we can get a picture of the whole. So For example I as a fundamentalist no longer am led by the fundamentalist scribes which dictated our doctrine, (the Nicolaitans of fundamentalism) But will and am able to have fellowship with Catholics, or Calvinists or Charismatics, while learning from them some wonderful truths of the divine revelation given them, all the while discerning when they begin to promote their Nicolaitanism, and am able to point this out to them how this is their flaw. This is what fellowship is about, it is learning from one another the whole of the Truth Granted us, that we may more fully know the truth. This can only occur in the scismatic and broken world we are living in and in this Laodicean church age. It is we in this age who are called to unite the seven Spirits of God given to the seven church ages into the fulness of Christ as we lay aside the doctrines of men. For the scripture read Ephesians 4:11-16. Especially verse 14. This is the mystery he has revealed to me, the question is can you hear what the Spirit is saying to the church?

Thank you!!

 

[Renniks]

No - you're still not getting it.

Works aren't not an "after effect" of faith. They are en essential element of faith itself.
That's what James is trying to explain to his readers is some detail (James 2:14-26). It's precisely what Jesus is talking about in the Lesson of the Sheep and the Goats (Matt. 25:31-46) and what Paul is describing in 1 Cor. 13:1-13.

You are forgetting that these "good works" are NOT works of our own - but works that GOD Himself prepared FOR us to do in advance (Eph. 2:10).

You don't seem to be getting the fact that if you rely on your works for salvation, you aren't relying on Christs sacrifice but your own performance.