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Renniks

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- John the Baptist wore a hair shirt - and Jesus said of him that there was NONE greater.
- Fasting is a BIBLICAL discipline (Esth. 4:16, Exod. 34:28, Joel 2:12, Psalm 69:10, Matt. 6:16-18, Luke 2:37, Luke 4:2-4, Acts 13:3-4).
- The Bible speaks of wearing sackcloth to mortify the flesh (Psalm 35:13-14).

Of the mortification of his own flesh, Paul said:
1 Cor. 9:27
"I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected."

So, I'm NOT sure why YOU would chastise these Catholic saints for doing just that?
Paul is talking about the lengths he goes to in order to spread the gospel, not establishing a doctrine of penance. And you are changing your tune now after calling me a liar? Strange.

The point is that none of these disciplines save anyone. Fasting is a good thing. It's not a means of salvation.
 

Renniks

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Hey Renniks,

Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth sooooooo the Church must know the truth if it is the pillar and foundation of it. ;)

Now all you have to do is find that Church!!
I already have.
 

Renniks

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Fascinating....Thanks for your opinion.

Would you like to at least TRY and answer the other two questions I asked:

Who taught you what a false teaching is? Or are you self taught?

Patient Mary
I doubt anyone is wholly self taught. We all should study theology, but most Christians don't. I'm not sure what you want. I said I read various Christian writers and attended various churches. I try to take the gold from each and leave the dross.
 

BreadOfLife

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You don't seem to be getting the fact that if you rely on your works for salvation, you aren't relying on Christs sacrifice but your own performance.
WRONG.
I rely on Christ's sacrifice.

The DIFFERENCE between YOU and me is that I understand that if I don't cooperate with God's grace - I DON'T have faith.
ALL I would have is belief - like YOU - which is NO better than the Demons (James 2:19) . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Paul is talking about the lengths he goes to in order to spread the gospel, not establishing a doctrine of penance. And you are changing your tune now after calling me a liar? Strange.

The point is that none of these disciplines save anyone. Fasting is a good thing. It's not a means of salvation.
FIRST of all - In 1 Cor. 9:27, Paul is talking about mortifivcati0on of the flesh - which is soething he preached about often (Romans 8:13, Col. 3:5, Gal. 5:24).

Secondly - I never called you a "Liar" - I said that you LIED, which you did. BIG difference. You implied that the Church TAUGHT that one must torture oneself in order to be forgiven of their sins - which is a LIE.

Thirdly - NOBODY said that physical disciplines "save" ANYBODY. They help to remind us of our lowly and sinful state to bring us to humility.
This is the reason for wearing sackcloth, for example.

It's difficult debating with anti-Catholics because you guys ALWAYS resort to lying.
It's like debating with a Democrat . . .
 

Renniks

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WRONG.
I rely on Christ's sacrifice.

The DIFFERENCE between YOU and me is that I understand that if I don't cooperate with God's grace - I DON'T have faith.
ALL I would have is belief - like YOU - which is NO better than the Demons (James 2:19) . . .
If you didn't cooperate with grace, you would not be saved, so, no, you would not have faith. Again, you don't cooperate 100 percent, as far as works.. so your argument falls flat. What percentage do you have to cooperate to stay saved?
 

Renniks

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Secondly - I never called you a "Liar" - I said that you LIED, which you did. BIG difference. You implied that the Church TAUGHT that one must torture oneself in order to be forgiven of their sins - which is a LIE.
Lol, there's no difference whatsoever in calling someone a liar and saying they lie.
 

Renniks

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Thirdly - NOBODY said that physical disciplines "save" ANYBODY
Isn't any of the works you do physical disciplines? Even choosing not to do something is a physical discipline. Luther said a curious thing that is quite startling at first glance. He said if we could murder and commit adultery 1000 times a day it would not cancel out grace ( I'm paraphrasing) but the point is, we aren't saved by doing or not doing. We are saved solely by God's grace. God doesn't need help. He's not restricted to saving only people who have reached a certain level of perfect.
Cor. 13:3:

If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Catholic.com says:
"We are bound to follow “the law of Christ” as St. Paul said in I Cor. 9:21, but we must understand that we are saved by grace through the instruments of faith and obedience. That obedience includes keeping the Ten Commandments, but the keeping of the commandments is an instrument—a necessary instrument—through which the grace of God flows and keeps us in Christ, the principle of reward for us. Thus, we have to keep the commandments to be saved, but we understand it is only through grace that we can do so."

Only no one truly keeps the ten commandments. Because Jesus said to hate in your heart is murder and to lust is adultery. No one even keeps the commandment to love God with thier whole heart.


“Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law” (Galatians 5:3).

James agrees. He writes, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10).

There is only one hope: God’s mercy. The Scripture is full of this teaching. “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:5). “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Romans 10:6). “If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly” (Galatians 2:21).
Now in regards to James: was abraham saved by works?

The works of Abraham that James mentions were a result of justification which came by faith a quarter of a century earlier. Abraham was not being saved again. Rather, he was showing evidence of his salvation. He was being confirmed in the justification by faith that had already been accomplished years before.

Titus brings it all together:

The entire truth is conveniently captured for us in one passage, Titus 3:4–8:

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Good deeds are a result of salvation by grace and God's mercy, not a cause of that salvation.
 

Brakelite

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only two entities are capable of fulfilling this scripture: drunk with the blood of the saints
The pagan Roman Empire and militant communism! Not the holy church founded by Christ Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16
That little horn grew out of the pagan empire after it has been broken up into ten. It cannot be the empire itself. The empire broke up in the 5th century. And if those 11 horns, only one had the power and influence and the motive to uproot 3 of the others. Western europe is founded in the remaining 7.
 

BreadOfLife

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Lol, there's no difference whatsoever in calling someone a liar and saying they lie.
That's not true.

I can guarantee you that you have lied in your lifetime - but if you are generally an honest person, I would never consider you to BE a liar.
If you repented - were you NOT forgiven?

I stole a pack of gum when I was 9 years old. I may be MANY things - but I'm not a "Thief" because I have striven NOT to repeat that error
I repented. Was I NOT forgiven?.
The SAME goes for ANY sin.

You lied in our discussion - but I never called you a "Liar" because I don't know you well enough to make that observation.
 

BreadOfLife

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Isn't any of the works you do physical disciplines? Even choosing not to do something is a physical discipline. Luther said a curious thing that is quite startling at first glance. He said if we could murder and commit adultery 1000 times a day it would not cancel out grace ( I'm paraphrasing) but the point is, we aren't saved by doing or not doing. We are saved solely by God's grace. God doesn't need help. He's not restricted to saving only people who have reached a certain level of perfect.
Cor. 13:3:

If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Catholic.com says:
"We are bound to follow “the law of Christ” as St. Paul said in I Cor. 9:21, but we must understand that we are saved by grace through the instruments of faith and obedience. That obedience includes keeping the Ten Commandments, but the keeping of the commandments is an instrument—a necessary instrument—through which the grace of God flows and keeps us in Christ, the principle of reward for us. Thus, we have to keep the commandments to be saved, but we understand it is only through grace that we can do so."

Only no one truly keeps the ten commandments. Because Jesus said to hate in your heart is murder and to lust is adultery. No one even keeps the commandment to love God with thier whole heart.


“Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law” (Galatians 5:3).

James agrees. He writes, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10).

There is only one hope: God’s mercy. The Scripture is full of this teaching. “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:5). “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Romans 10:6). “If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly” (Galatians 2:21).
Now in regards to James: was abraham saved by works?

The works of Abraham that James mentions were a result of justification which came by faith a quarter of a century earlier. Abraham was not being saved again. Rather, he was showing evidence of his salvation. He was being confirmed in the justification by faith that had already been accomplished years before.

Titus brings it all together:

The entire truth is conveniently captured for us in one passage, Titus 3:4–8:

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Good deeds are a result of salvation by grace and God's mercy, not a cause of that salvation.
You're arguing in circles because we ALREADY went over this.

I stated several posts back that it is NOT about being "perfectly" obedient. It's about STRIVING to be obedient in our journey of faith so that whe we DO satumble - we know that we must be repentant in order to be forgiven.
Luther was WRONG about that. Our future sins are NOT automatically forgiven if we do not repent of them after having committed them.
 

BreadOfLife

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If you didn't cooperate with grace, you would not be saved, so, no, you would not have faith. Again, you don't cooperate 100 percent, as far as works.. so your argument falls flat. What percentage do you have to cooperate to stay saved?
Read my LAST post (#714) again . . .
 

Brakelite

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Isn't any of the works you do physical disciplines? Even choosing not to do something is a physical discipline. Luther said a curious thing that is quite startling at first glance. He said if we could murder and commit adultery 1000 times a day it would not cancel out grace ( I'm paraphrasing) but the point is, we aren't saved by doing or not doing. We are saved solely by God's grace. God doesn't need help. He's not restricted to saving only people who have reached a certain level of perfect.
Cor. 13:3:

If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Catholic.com says:
"We are bound to follow “the law of Christ” as St. Paul said in I Cor. 9:21, but we must understand that we are saved by grace through the instruments of faith and obedience. That obedience includes keeping the Ten Commandments, but the keeping of the commandments is an instrument—a necessary instrument—through which the grace of God flows and keeps us in Christ, the principle of reward for us. Thus, we have to keep the commandments to be saved, but we understand it is only through grace that we can do so."

Only no one truly keeps the ten commandments. Because Jesus said to hate in your heart is murder and to lust is adultery. No one even keeps the commandment to love God with thier whole heart.


“Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law” (Galatians 5:3).

James agrees. He writes, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10).

There is only one hope: God’s mercy. The Scripture is full of this teaching. “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy” (Titus 3:5). “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Romans 10:6). “If righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly” (Galatians 2:21).
Now in regards to James: was abraham saved by works?

The works of Abraham that James mentions were a result of justification which came by faith a quarter of a century earlier. Abraham was not being saved again. Rather, he was showing evidence of his salvation. He was being confirmed in the justification by faith that had already been accomplished years before.

Titus brings it all together:

The entire truth is conveniently captured for us in one passage, Titus 3:4–8:

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Good deeds are a result of salvation by grace and God's mercy, not a cause of that salvation.
The nuances between true Protestant understanding of faith, works, and obedience, and the true Catholic understanding of the same, when followed through to their logical conclusion reveal a very real difference between the two, which the two parties who signed the various agreements between Lutherans and Catholics a decade or two ago on the subject of justification by faith dutifully ignored.
 

BreadOfLife

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If you didn't cooperate with grace, you would not be saved, so, no, you would not have faith. Again, you don't cooperate 100 percent, as far as works.. so your argument falls flat. What percentage do you have to cooperate to stay saved?
By the way - MOST Protestants that I have spoken with would completely disagree with this position.
99% of them tell me that we DON'T cooperate with God in our salvation - and that it is 100% HIS doing.

Unfortunately - this is NOT a Biblical teaching - but a man-made perversion of the Protestant Revolt . . .
 
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Brakelite

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That's not true.

I can guarantee you that you have lied in your lifetime - but if you are generally an honest person, I would never consider you to BE a liar.
If you repented - were you NOT forgiven?

I stole a pack of gum when I was 9 years old. I may be MANY things - but I'm not a "Thief" because I have striven NOT to repeat that error
I repented. Was I NOT forgiven?.
The SAME goes for ANY sin.

You lied in our discussion - but I never called you a "Liar" because I don't know you well enough to make that observation.
Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt and believe that through ignorance, poor education, upbringing, intellect, they may be simply mistaken? Why is it that everyone, and I mean everyone, who disagrees with you regarding your church is lying?
 

BarneyFife

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Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt and believe that through ignorance, poor education, upbringing, intellect, they may be simply mistaken? Why is it that everyone, and I mean everyone, who disagrees with you regarding your church is lying?
That's his kick, man, he digs that. :cool:
 
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BreadOfLife

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Do you ever give anyone the benefit of the doubt and believe that through ignorance, poor education, upbringing, intellect, they may be simply mistaken? Why is it that everyone, and I mean everyone, who disagrees with you regarding your church is lying?

Because I expect people who come to a debate to come PREPARED, as I am.
I don't engage in ANY conversation unless I have done my homework.

That's why I assume that whenever a person comes here to debate me and spreads blatant falsehoods about MY Church - that they are lying.
If you come to a debate board to talk about things you don't know about - then perhaps you should take some time OFF and do some homework until you DO . . .