Who founded your church?

[BreadOfLife]

Breadoflife....You are again teaching Jehovah's Witness theology.
Let me show you again..
This is JW theology, that you are teaching as typical water cult theology.
"""Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the kingdom of God"
See that? Thats JW doctrine of water saves, or that water is necessary before God will save you.
So, what you need to do, is open a real NT, and not the doctrine of devil's DRB.
And you need to find out what is """"PAUL's Gospel.""""
You need to find out what this is, so that you can have the correct "time of the Gentiles" understanding of the Gospel of the Grace of God, and once you discover this, you'll understand why Paul told you that he was "not sent to Water Baptize".

Now, let me address this nonsense you just provided the members here again as your water cult JW theology.

You, like all who trained by water cult groups are obsessed with WATER instead of being obsessed with the Cross and the Blood Atonement. This is always typical of people like you who are talking and teaching AROUND The Grace of God and AROUND the Blood of Jesus and omitting "justification by faith',. And this is because all water cult theology tries to deny Justification by faith, and replace it with water and works.

Now, you say that its absolutely necessary for water to be a part of God's atonement, or He wont save you.
Yet, I was saved without water. The Dying Thief was saved without water, and Paul and the 120 in the upper room, before he Preached in Act 2, received the Holy Spirit.

Also, What if a person is in prison cell? What if a person is in a hospital dying? What if a person is not around any water.., and they believe on Jesus.
You say.>"well those are exceptions".
And i say you are full of water, and you can't play both sides of this error by demanding that God use water, while offering "exceptions".
So, as they say in the South of the USA...."that dog wont hunt", fella.
So all of those, according to your water cult JW theology, can't be saved according to the madness and error that is the water cult doctrine of devils.

So, you think about those people, in the context of the ridiculous JW theology you are chanting about here, while you find out what 'Paul's Gospel" is all about.

As a typical rebellious anti-Christ teacher - YOU have pererted Paul's message and place him ABOVE Christ. I say "typical" because Peter warned about people like YOU - of which there are MANY - when he wrote about Paul's writings:

2 Pet. 3:16
There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Whenever I read your absurd and confused rantsposts - I see precisely what Peter as talking about.
It is not Paul who commanded the Apostles to Baptize ALL Nations - but Christ.

As to the desire to be baptized on a deathbed and the lack of availability of water - that person has experienced what Christ's Church has deemed, Baptism of Desire - and yes, that IS an exception. His Church is His mouthpiece on earth.
You know WHO said so? GOD:

Matt 16:16-19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

 

[theefaith]

Our discussion is centered on the authority of the church and how far it extends. We all know what your church has claimed in the past... Civil/secular and spiritual authority over the whole earth. Right? It's not difficult to bring up quotes to support that as you would both know. The scriptures are disputed territory. While the church attempts to convince everyone that the scriptures are the source of all doctrine, you would admit that tradition is also elevated to a place alongside scripture, with Divine being derived from both. In this I believe you would agree. However. I suggest this is wrong. And the bishop of Rheggio Gaspari de Fosso brought the council of Trent to a conclusive climax with the following speech, which put paid to the Lutheran objections to papal authority and tradition.

Such is the condition of the heretics of this age that on nothing do they rely more than that, under the pretense of the word of God, they overthrow the authority of the church; as though the church, His body, could be opposed to the word of Christ, or the head to the body. On the contrary, the authority of the church, then, is illustrated most clearly by the Scriptures; for while on the one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, [col. 530] offers them to us to be read, in doubtful matters explains them faithfully, and condemns whatever is contrary to them; on the other hand, the legal precepts in the Scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. Circumcision, enjoined upon Abraham and his seed under such threatening that he who had not been circumcised would be destroyed from among his people, has been so abrogated that the apostle asserts: "If ye be circumcised, ye have fallen from grace, and Christ shall profit you nothing." These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the church. Indeed, if she should be removed (since there must be heresies), who would set forth truth, and confound the obstinacy of heretics? All things will be confused, and soon heresies condemned by her authority will spring up again.

In other words. According to the Catholic Church tradition has the upper hand over scripture if the church deems it appropriate. As the church result admits, there is no foundation whatsoever for Sunday Sacredness in scripture, therefore the Sunday tradition is purely and solely established by church authority which in this case particularly overrides even the very Commandment of God. Sadly, Protestants cannot object because they observe the day and this submit to the same authority that established it. Rome.

that’s beautiful! Love it! Christ gave this authority to the church Matt 16:18 whatsoever you bind on earth (that’s anything and everything) is bound in heaven
All must submit to Christ the King!

 

[BreadOfLife]

The entire 3000 that were born again in Acts 2, are the "exceptions" to your water cult JW Theology.

These 3000 JEWS were the ones who were told by Peter that they had murdered their Messiah, and they asked Him what to do about that..."what shall we do".
Just read Acts 2:34-37.
So, Peter told them, what i showed you yesterday....those verses.... that you are now trying to hide under the water cult.

Thats not going to work.
Not today, not tomorrow, and not ever.
Tho you will continue to try it, because you have nothing else to offer but Water, Water, and more H20.

Listen....
Peter told them....You have to REPENT of your UNBELIEF,....as it was your unbelief that caused you to KILL YOUR MESSIAH.

SO, he told them to REPENT of that unbelief.......and they did., all 3000.
So, to turn from unbelief to FAITH, is to REPENT.
ANd once those 3000 Jews did that, then FAITH is come to their heart, and God accepts faith to Justify, and then apply the Blood of Jesus as the Atonement for all sin.= BORN AGAIN.
No water necessary.

After the 3000 REPENTED of their UNBELIEF and found FAITH in Christ, then they were allowed into the Water, as their symbolic witness.
Water follows salvation.. It never causes it, nor is it necessary for salvation.

THe same thing happened again and again in the ACTS of the Apostles, where you find...."they BELIEVED", which is to REPENT OF UNBELIEF< and then they are allowed to be water baptized as the symbolic witness.

For example.....Phillip in Acts 8 told the Black Eunuch...>"if you have BELIEVED with all your heart.....= Salvation.......then you may be water baptized.

So...That's the reality of God accepting faith to impute righteousness, or "Abraham BELIEVED GOD< and it was counted to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS".

No water need apply.
No water found.
No water cult theology necessary or accepted.

WRONG.
Your dishonesty ALWAYS exposes you before those who aren't afraid of the Word of God.

Peter didn't just say "Repent".
He said: "Repent, AND be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

Repentance is the FIRST part. It's what happens when a person receives the initial grace to believe. This is NOT rebirth.
Baptism is how they reborn because they have cooperated with that initial grace to believe (Rom. 1:5, Rom. 16:25-27).

So - YOU can continue to LIE - but the Scriptures will expose you ate every turn . . .

 

[theefaith]

They are meaningless with regards to being born again.

THe Church can't save you.
The cookie and the juice can't save you.
And water baptism can't save you.

Christ can’t save you, is what your saying?

 

[theefaith]

WRONG.
Your dishonesty ALWAYS exposes you before those who aren't afraid of the Word of God.

Peter didn't just say "Repent".
He said: "Repent, AND be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

Repentance is the FIRST part. It's what happens when a person receives the initial grace to believe. This is NOT rebirth.
Baptism is how they reborn because they have cooperated with that initial grace to believe (Rom. 1:5, Rom. 16:25-27).

So - YOU can continue to LIE - but the Scriptures will expose you ate every turn . . .

added to the church by BAPTISM

ACTS 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

cant be added to the church or born again or from above or born of God without baptism!

 

[Renniks]

Christ can’t save you, is what your saying?

How ironic and sad, that's exactly what you keep saying.

 

[Renniks]

of and by mean the same
It is the complete ritual that makes one born again or born of God

intention: to baptize as initiation into the new covenant church
The water: matter
The words: form in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy
Spirit

all parts are necessary for the ritual
To be born again
Born from above
Born of God

1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

 

[Renniks]

added to the church by BAPTISM

ACTS 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

cant be added to the church or born again or from above or born of God without baptism!

Many suppose that there is reference here to the ordinance of baptism by water. But the connection requires us to understand it of the baptism of the Holy Spirit Matthew 3:11; so, it means, that by the agency of the Holy Spirit, they had all been suited, each to his appropriate place, to constitute the body of Christ - the church.

 

[theefaith]

How ironic and sad, that's exactly what you keep saying.

that’s what he says
We say Christ and his church are one
Sacraments are the counts of grace
The means of salvation

 

[theefaith]

1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

both faith and works

james 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[theefaith]

Many suppose that there is reference here to the ordinance of baptism by water. But the connection requires us to understand it of the baptism of the Holy Spirit Matthew 3:11; so, it means, that by the agency of the Holy Spirit, they had all been suited, each to his appropriate place, to constitute the body of Christ - the church.

no Christian baptism is water baptism in the name of the father and of the son and of the HS
Matt 29:19
1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Jn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Listen water cult theology..., you are talking through your hat, again.
You are just talking to talk..

Look at what you said...... how ridiculous it is, again.

"all sin is rejection of Christ"..

Oh really?
Well, not according to the entire Old Testament, when Christ was not born yet, and their were sinners.
Not according to all history prior to Christ's birth.
So, how could anyone in the OT reject Christ, when Christ was not yet born?
How could anyone in the entire history of the world, prior to Jesus being born, reject Him?

So, as i said, you like to hear yourself talk, and thats not a reason to keep misleading people on a Christian Forum with Jehovah's Witness theology, that is a doctrine of devil's as found in the devil's bible. (The other one)... There are 2.

1. The Satanic Bible
2. The Douay Rhemis

Here again is JW Theology, that you teach, Breadoflife

"""""Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the kingdom of God"

Moses and Isaiah and ALL the prophets ni Heaven are there BECAUSE of Christ.
They are IN Christ. He died for THEIR sins as well aas YOURS.

ALL sin is rejection of God - and Jesus is God.
There YOU go again, heretically trying to dissect the Trinity . . .

 

[Renniks]

that’s what he says
We say Christ and his church are one
Sacraments are the counts of grace
The means of salvation

Yes, you keep saying that, but scripture doesn't.

God justified Abraham by faith alone, apart from either circumcision or water baptism.

Thus those who say saving faith includes water baptism change how faith is defined in Romans 4:1-12. But if saving faith is redefined to entail water baptism, no one today would be able to “walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised,” since Abraham’s faith had nothing to do with religious rites, whether circumcision or water baptism.

 

[Renniks]

both faith and works

1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

Do you even read the Bible, or just a few selected, out-of-context verses?

 

[Renniks]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Abraham was saved long before this. Justified here has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Behold]

Becaue Baptism in Christ is how a person enters into the family of God .

Spiritual Baptism, not water, is how you enter into the real of the Spirit were God Exists.
Born again - is a baptism in the Spirit, by the HOLY SPIRIT, not in the water by water.


Its this..
1 Corinthians 12:13

13 : For by one SPIRIT we are all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles,.


NOTICE...>by one SPIRIT we are all BAPTIZED into the body of Christ.

NO WATER INVOLVED.

Why is it that the water cult's deceived cannot COMPRHEND "baptized by one SPIRIT"., and think that Spirit is Water.

Is as if their mind is locked unwater.
So odd that water cultists can't understand anything related to the Spirit, and can only perceive in the secular.

Listen again, breadoflife. The water cult heresy is that "water is the basis for the 2nd Birth, and that is Jehovah's Witness, theology.
Its CULTIC.
Understand?
So, stop teaching this water cult theology on a Christian Forum.

Do no teach this mess on a Christian Forum.

JEHOVAH's WITNESS = """ Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the kingdom of God"...

 

[Behold]

As a typical rebellious anti-Christ teacher - YOU have pererted Paul's message

You have no idea of "Paul's Gospel" and to pretend that you do, is just one more proof of your intentional dishonesty.


Paul's Message, that you've probably never heard, being that all you can talk about is PETER and WATER......is that God's Gift of Righteousness is not related to water.
Its only related to FAITH.
"justification by FAITH".

Notice in Romans 4 (written by Paul).. that the Father of a Real Believer's faith, is ABRAHAM, who is the "father of our Faith".

Abraham was not water baptized. why? Because Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and this faith, was "counted to him as Righteousness".
That's Paul's Gospel that you and all the water cult's reject.

Abraham is the Father of our Faith, as PAUL Teaches.
So, there's another epistle by Paul you avoid.
Nothing new.

 

[Behold]

Moses and Isaiah and ALL the prophets ni Heaven are there BECAUSE of Christ.
They are IN Christ. He died for THEIR sins as well aas YOURS.

ALL sin is rejection of God - and Jesus is God.
There YOU go again, heretically trying to dissect the Trinity . . .

So now "Jesus is God", and that is what you "meant", before.....

Well, im glad i could help you figure out what to say next, to cover up your latest biblical goof.

 

[Behold]

Christ can’t save you, is what your saying?

Christ is in Heaven.
The eucharist cookie is in a box, on a shelf, in the pantry of your church. There are hundreds of them, in each box.
So, Dont insult Jesus.
Think before you speak, next time.

 

[Behold]

WRONG.
Your dishonesty ALWAYS exposes you before those who aren't afraid of the Word of God.

Peter didn't just say "Repent".
He said: "Repent, AND be BAPTIZED. .

Yes, as i said, and as Peter teaches.

Repent of your Unbelief, and have Faith in Christ. = Acts 2:38

Once you do, then get in the water. = Acts 2:38.

Here it is again.

Phillip speaking to the Eunuch in Acts 8.. "if you believe with all your heart.. ( turn from unbelief), then you may be water baptized".

See how the water follows Conversion?

Notice that "believe with all your heart"? That is Repenting toward Christ and away from Unbelief....and following that, you may be water baptized.

See Acts 2:38 for an update on "repent", as you read verses 34-37 to find out what is being "repented of".