Who gave Jesus to who?

[quietthinker]

Did God give Jesus to the world so that the world could give Jesus back to God?
How does this work?

What am I talking about here?

The traditional Christian view is that God gave us his lamb (Jesus) so that we could kill it and give it back...... dead.

Did God want a dead lamb from us?......does God need anything dead from us?
How is love manifested by desiring something dead?

Is the word 'sacrifice' solely to be understood as the domain of death and if not how would it apply to the Jesus story?

 

[Windmillcharge]

The traditional Christian view is that God gave us his lamb (Jesus) so that we could kill it and give it back...... dead.

Never heard that view.

God sent Jesus to reveal God to us, to teach us, to make the way of salvation known to us and to be crucified so that our sins, our guilt, our shame and our punishment could be dealt with.
His resurrection shows us that all these things have been dealt with once and for all time.

We did nothing in the crucifixtion it was God and the devil at work, the devil in his belief that he was defeating God.

It is as Christians that we offer a sacrifice through our love for Jesus of our acts, thoughts, words and lives.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Did God give Jesus to the world so that the world could give Jesus back to God?
How does this work?

What am I talking about here?

The traditional Christian view is that God gave us his lamb (Jesus) so that we could kill it and give it back...... dead.

Did God want a dead lamb from us?......does God need anything dead from us?
How is love manifested by desiring something dead?

Is the word 'sacrifice' solely to be understood as the domain of death and if not how would it apply to the Jesus story?

Jn 3:16 says it all Thinkr

 

[quietthinker]

Jn 3:16 says it all Thinkr

is there any reference to God wanting a dead lamb in that text Robert?

 

[quietthinker]

God sent Jesus to reveal God to us, to teach us, to make the way of salvation known to us and to be crucified so that our sins, our guilt, our shame and our punishment could be dealt with.

Does God need to punish?

 

[MatthewG]

That is a good question, does God need to punish @quietthinker.

Think here about what Jesus said to the people in his day in age.

Parable of the Evil Farmers Matthew 21:33-46
33 “Now listen to another story. A certain landowner planted a vineyard, built a wall around it, dug a pit for pressing out the grape juice, and built a lookout tower. Then he leased the vineyard to tenant farmers and moved to another country.

34 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent his servants to collect his share of the crop.

35 But the farmers grabbed his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 So the landowner sent a larger group of his servants to collect for him, but the results were the same.

37 “Finally, the owner sent his son, thinking, ‘Surely they will respect my son.’

38 “But when the tenant farmers saw his son coming, they said to one another, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Come on, let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’

39 So they grabbed him, dragged him out of the vineyard, and murdered him.

40 “When the owner of the vineyard returns,” Jesus asked, “what do you think he will do to those farmers?”

41 The religious leaders replied, “He will put the wicked men to a horrible death and lease the vineyard to others who will give him his share of the crop after each harvest.”

42 Then Jesus asked them, “Didn’t you ever read this in the Scriptures?

‘The stone that the builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.
This is the Lord’s doing,
and it is wonderful to see.’

43 I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit.

44 Anyone who stumbles over that stone will be broken to pieces, and it will crush anyone it falls on.”

45 When the leading priests and Pharisees heard this parable, they realized he was telling the story against them—they were the wicked farmers.

46 They wanted to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowds, who considered Jesus to be a prophet.

When it comes down - to God's wrath I personally believe this did in fact have to happen for killing the Son of God, in which the Jews said this.

• Matthew 27:25 All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

Please share your thoughts with me, hope it wasn't to much to read my friend!

 

[Robert Gwin]

is there any reference to God wanting a dead lamb in that text Robert?

I guess you would like for me to explain the sacrifice. Jesus was a corresponding ransom Thinkr. Adam lost life for humans, everlasting life as humans are designed to live forever. Adam died. We have always been taught 2 wrongs don't make a right, but God's law is eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul sir. Adam's sin alienated us from God, who is the real tree of life. Soul for soul dictates that when a life is lost the consequences of that must be compensated for with an equal loss. I know it may not make sense, but a perfect life lost life for humans, a perfect life must redeem it, that we can understand sir. Since no human was perfect, one had to be provided. Jehovah inseminated Mary, who was imperfect, but God being the Father was perfect, hence Jesus could be born as a perfect human. Jesus remained sinless through his entire life, and therefore when sacrificed it was a corresponding ransom that redeemed man back to God. Jesus did not sacrifice his pre-human life sir, only his human life, and after a brief time on earth after he was resurrected returned to his old life he has prior to coming. Only Jesus as a human died Thinkr, not his firstborn son.

 

[quietthinker]

I guess you would like for me to explain the sacrifice. Jesus was a corresponding ransom Thinkr. Adam lost life for humans, everlasting life as humans are designed to live forever. Adam died. We have always been taught 2 wrongs don't make a right, but God's law is eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul sir. Adam's sin alienated us from God, who is the real tree of life. Soul for soul dictates that when a life is lost the consequences of that must be compensated for with an equal loss. I know it may not make sense, but a perfect life lost life for humans, a perfect life must redeem it, that we can understand sir. Since no human was perfect, one had to be provided. Jehovah inseminated Mary, who was imperfect, but God being the Father was perfect, hence Jesus could be born as a perfect human. Jesus remained sinless through his entire life, and therefore when sacrificed it was a corresponding ransom that redeemed man back to God. Jesus did not sacrifice his pre-human life sir, only his human life, and after a brief time on earth after he was resurrected returned to his old life he has prior to coming. Only Jesus as a human died Thinkr, not his firstborn son.

Yes, I'm familiar with the penal substitution theory Robert. How is it that Jesus never invoked it when the paralytic was let down through the roof. By Jesus own estimation the man was a sinner yet Jesus never demanded or asked him to do anything, he, with a word, gave him blanket forgiveness before the paralytic had said a word. 'Your sins are forgiven' Jesus said, get up and go home......and might I add, there are many accounts in the gospels which follow the same principle.

Forgiveness is in the heart of God. Our hearts need to allow this to sink in and trust it.

It is man who has cobbled together the penal substitution theory.....not God. It is man who has said, someone must pay.

God has said there is good news for the human race, you are forgiven, see I will send my Son to show you what I am like; a Saviour......and we kill him and say, God wanted him dead. What a travesty!

Jesus did pay......he absorbed our brutality.....and did not retaliate.

 

[JohnPaul]

The Jews committed the biggest crime in history since man was created, they had Christ killed.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Does God need to punish?

God is totally Holy, Totally Just as well as Totally Merciful. He canot let the offence of hating him go unpunished, that would be an offence agaist both his Holiness and Justice.

 

[quietthinker]

The Jews committed the biggest crime in history since man was created, they had Christ killed.

When one treats God's children with distain and disrespect one is treating Jesus in the same manner. Blaming others does not exonerate ourselves.

 

[JohnPaul]

When one treats God's children with distain and disrespect one is treating Jesus in the same manner. Blaming others does not exonerate ourselves.

It’s the truth.

 

[quietthinker]

God is totally Holy, Totally Just as well as Totally Merciful. He canot let the offence of hating him go unpunished, that would be an offence agaist both his Holiness and Justice.

Is that how Jesus related?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, I'm familiar with the penal substitution theory Robert. How is it that Jesus never invoked it when the paralytic was let down through the roof. By Jesus own estimation the man was a sinner yet Jesus never demanded or asked him to do anything, he, with a word, gave him blanket forgiveness before the paralytic had said a word. 'Your sins are forgiven' Jesus said, get up and go home......and might I add, there are many accounts in the gospels which follow the same principle.

Forgiveness is in the heart of God. Our hearts need to allow this to sink in and trust it.

It is man who has cobbled together the penal substitution theory.....not God. It is man who has said, someone must pay.

God has said there is good news for the human race, you are forgiven, see I will send my Son to show you what I am like; a Saviour......and we kill him and say, God wanted him dead. What a travesty!

Jesus did pay......he absorbed our brutality.....and did not retaliate.

He is definitely the greatest man who ever lived Thinkr.
Imagine the restraint of God seeing them abusing His son. If I had it in my power I would shut the lights out on all those who had a hand in abusing us in Russia. Could you imagine the powerful witness that would make if all those who had any involvement in it just dropped dead all at once? I know that is not forgiving, but it would definitely be a future deterrent to abusing God's people.

 

[quietthinker]

He is definitely the greatest man who ever lived Thinkr.
Imagine the restraint of God seeing them abusing His son. If I had it in my power I would shut the lights out on all those who had a hand in abusing us in Russia. Could you imagine the powerful witness that would make if all those who had any involvement in it just dropped dead all at once? I know that is not forgiving, but it would definitely be a future deterrent to abusing God's people.

Forcing the demise of the abuser (Satan) would have had the universe serving in fear and doubt; harmony would evaporate like morning mist and distrust grow.
The force of the will is not in God's nature neither is 'payment'. We need to look outside of familiar paradigms and take a closer look at the God-man because he is like no other. We could not have invented him. It will do either of two things, melt us or harden us.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Forcing the demise of the abuser (Satan) would have had the universe serving in fear and doubt; harmony would evaporate like morning mist and distrust grow.
The force of the will is not in God nature neither is 'payment'. We need to look outside of familiar paradigms about God and take a closer look at the God-man because he is like no other. We could not have invented him. It will do either of two things, melt us or harden us.

Jesus is our exemplar for sure. We cannot imitate him fully, but we are to try. Do you worship the God he promoted Thinkr?

 

[Bob Estey]

Did God give Jesus to the world so that the world could give Jesus back to God?
How does this work?

What am I talking about here?

The traditional Christian view is that God gave us his lamb (Jesus) so that we could kill it and give it back...... dead.

Did God want a dead lamb from us?......does God need anything dead from us?
How is love manifested by desiring something dead?

Is the word 'sacrifice' solely to be understood as the domain of death and if not how would it apply to the Jesus story?

I think Jesus had more than one purpose, but addressing you remarks, I would say that God needed for Satan to kill an innocent man (Jesus) so that the world could see Satan for what he really was.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus is our exemplar for sure. We cannot imitate him fully, but we are to try. Do you worship the God he promoted Thinkr?

The purpose of Jesus was not so much as to be an example for us but rather and example of what the Father is to us.

 

[quietthinker]

I think Jesus had more than one purpose, but addressing you remarks, I would say that God needed for Satan to kill an innocent man (Jesus) so that the world could see Satan for what he really was.

I don't think God needed anything from Satan. That said, hiding behind subterfuge, misrepresentation and sophistication, Satan was unmasked for who and what his agenda is. It also revealed that God pushed to the limits of human and demonic cruelty was not in the least selfish as claimed by the Serpent.

 

[quietthinker]

That is a good question, does God need to punish @quietthinker.

Think here about what Jesus said to the people in his day in age.



When it comes down - to God's wrath I personally believe this did in fact have to happen for killing the Son of God, in which the Jews said this.

• Matthew 27:25 All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

Please share your thoughts with me, hope it wasn't to much to read my friend!

You are assuming Matthew, what the religious leaders verdict was, highlighted in their reply, was also that of Jesus. I think this is a mistake.