Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

[PeterAndroz]

The Gospel is not an instruction book of 'how to's' Peter. If one turns it into an instruction book how to's one sets himself up for division and denominationalism.

"""The Gospel is not an instruction book of 'how to's'...
How do you interpret the Gospel that Christ taught to Paul ?
Gal 1:
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[quietthinker]

"""The Gospel is not an instruction book of 'how to's'...
How do you interpret the Gospel that Christ taught to Paul ?
Gal 1:
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The good news that Jesus and the Apostles taught is that God forgives. Is there anybody that doesn't need forgiveness?

 

[PeterAndroz]

The good news that Jesus and the Apostles taught is that God forgives. Is there anybody that doesn't need forgiveness?

Yes and how is that forgiveness achieved according to the Gospel that Christ taught to Paul as follows :-

Gal 1:
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[quietthinker]

Yes and how is that forgiveness achieved according to the Gospel that Christ taught to Paul as follows :-

Gal 1:
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

How is it achieved? He did not withhold his life. He would rather die than be unkind to his Creation.
Man's 'gospel' is that there is a day of payback where the 'Boss' gets his pound of flesh. This is not how it is with the God of Jesus.
Grace is the very thing lacking in men's theories and practices. Grace is the overarching, gob smacking kindness towards those who don't deserve it.
Consider the rebuke Jesus gave James and John when they wanted to call fire down on the Samaritans that were inhospitable to them.
Luke 9:51-56

 

[PeterAndroz]

How is it achieved? He did not withhold his life. He would rather die than be unkind to his Creation.
Man's 'gospel' is that there is a day of payback where the 'Boss' gets his pound of flesh. This is not how it is with the God of Jesus.
Grace is the very thing lacking in men's theories and practices. Grace is the overarching, gob smacking kindness towards those who don't deserve it.
Consider the rebuke Jesus gave James and John when they wanted to call fire down on the Samaritans that were inhospitable to them.
Luke 9:51-56

If you HEAR the gospel, BELIEVE the gospel, TRUST the Gospel you ARE saved & HS sealed
The Gospel is that Christ :-
DIED, was BURIED, ROSE 3 days later so that your sins can be forgiven
List where Peter or ANYONE else taught the same GOSPEL B4 Paul was made Apostle & Minister
Gal 1:
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[CrowCross]

I'm not wrong. He speaks of going to heaven and mansions, then he says he will return and we will be with him. After returning he is on Earth, and that's where we will be with him. The mansions/heaven is for those who die before trhe return of Christ, then no one goes to heaven anymore.

????? You go to heaven after the rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

Did Jesus return to heaven with an army?

That makes no sense.....now a lack of a white horse at the ascension does.

 

[rwb]

You're assuming this "last trumpet" is the one John wrote about in Revelation.
Thing is, Paul wrote about it before John wrote Revelation. This would indicate Paul had a different trumpet in mind.

Where did Paul write about a different trumpet? Please produce the verses where Paul speaks of a trumpet that shall be different?

Perhaps you're referring to the passage from 1Cor 15:51-52 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ???

Do you believe the "last trumpet" Paul says will come in "a moment, in the twinkling of and eye" is different than the last/seventh trumpet, or another last/seventh trumpet John says the angel shall sound when time would be no longer?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The following passage says that SEVEN angels sound SEVEN TRUMPETS, but you say Paul is NOT referring to the last/seventh trumpet as John writes in the Revelation?

Revelation 8:1-6 (KJV) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

 

[rwb]

for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. Obviously, before she makes herself ready she is not already ready. And that there is no marriage of the Lamb until the wife has made herself ready first. When are you saying the wife initally made herself ready?

Aren't we made ready when we have been born again and possess eternal life?

 

[rwb]

You need to study the wife / bride dynamic.

He left us as the betrothed.
We attend the marriage and it is consummated in heaven.

The bride is not the wife BEFORE the groom fetches her.
You are saying there is no bride / betrothal because you interpret is as so.

The rapture is the fetching of the BRIDE, NOT THE WIFE.
We see at the white horses IN HEAVEN, the bride has become the WIFE. During the tribulation.
No way is your model possible.

Christ only left believers physically! But when we have been born again NOTHING shall separate us from the love of God through Christ. We are not with Him NOW physically, but spiritually we are with Him forever. And now we are spiritually eating of the bread of life when we have partaken of the body of Christ.

Matthew 26:26 (KJV) And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

When we partake of the bread (body of Christ) and the cup (His shed blood for remission of sins), we are spiritually eating and drinking with Christ in the Father's Kingdom, the Kingdom of God in heaven. The physical elements of the body and blood of Christ represent the spiritual reality of the FACT that we are spiritually partaking of Him. That is how believers have part in the wedding feast with the Lamb of God in heaven.

Matthew 26:27-29 (KJV) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

 

[CrowCross]

Where did Paul write about a different trumpet? Please produce the verses where Paul speaks of a trumpet that shall be different?

Do you know that of the Feast of Trumpets they blow a shofar 100 times? Can you with 100% certainty show me Paul wasn't speaking of the number 100 blast of the shofar...but rather was speaking about a trumpet John would write about later on the island of Patmos?

This year the feast of Trumpets is Sept 11-13. Could that be the day of the rapture? Maybe...considering the rapture has always been imminent. Does the rapture have to occur on the feast of trumpets? Obviously the answer is no. But it gets interesting when you consider the other feast that were a shadow of Jesus and Jesus fulfilled.

My advice...Look up. Jesus is coming back.

 

[rwb]

Do you know that of the Feast of Trumpets they blow a shofar 100 times? Can you with 100% certainty show me Paul wasn't speaking of the number 100 blast of the shofar...but rather was speaking about a trumpet John would write about later on the island of Patmos?

This year the feast of Trumpets is Sept 11-13. Could that be the day of the rapture? Maybe...considering the rapture has always been imminent. Does the rapture have to occur on the feast of trumpets? Obviously the answer is no. But it gets interesting when you consider the other feast that were a shadow of Jesus and Jesus fulfilled.

My advice...Look up. Jesus is coming back.

Why would Paul or any New Covenant Christian assume things done according to Old Covenant Law must also be done under the New Covenant through Christ? The Law for literal/physical trumpets to be blown of Old ended with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:16 (KJV) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[CrowCross]

Why would Paul or any New Covenant Christian assume things done according to Old Covenant Law must also be done under the New Covenant through Christ? The Law for literal/physical trumpets to be blown of Old ended with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV) But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 9:16 (KJV) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Go look it up...
Jesus fulfilled the first four Jewish feasts: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost, by embodying their meanings and completing the prophecies they represented.

What feast is the next on the list?

 

[rwb]

Go look it up...
Jesus fulfilled the first four Jewish feasts: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost, by embodying their meanings and completing the prophecies they represented.

What feast is the next on the list?

Jesus fulfilled ALL the Old Law through His righteous life, sacrificial death, and miraculous resurrection! Once Christ came, the purpose of the Law was finished. The Law of Old served as a teacher until Christ came. Then it was made manifest that we are all children of God not by biological birth, or by obedience to the Old Law, but by faith in Christ Jesus. Once faith for all who believe came, we are baptized unto Christ, no longer under the teacher the Law was, but now under power of the Holy Spirit in us according to grace. The purpose God gave Old Covenant Israel the Law was because of transgressions "TIL THE SEED [Christ] would come to whom the promise was made." He is the Mediator of the New Covenant through which the Old is gone forever, and the New according to promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to all who believe.

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:19-29 (KJV) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Is there a new man in you? Are you born again? Are you one flesh with Christ?

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

This isn’t rocket science, it’s very easy to understand.

It's not one dimensional.
God is multifaceted, as is His book.

Is Jesus a lion or a lamb ?

I am going to say you stumble at that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So? He left alone but returns with many. He never said he would return exactly in all details as he left. He bodily ascended and he will bvodily descend, that's all.

Then the rapture verses that have him returning solo, as in Rev 14:14, 1 thes 4, matt 25, AND ACTS 1, are they misprints or a confused God?
Also your model has the complete OPPOSITE setting of the rapture.

That's 5 + unanswered objections that the Bible has against any "one coming".

That is massive red flags.

 

[IndianaRob]

It's not one dimensional.
God is multifaceted, as is His book.

Is Jesus a lion or a lamb ?

I am going to say you stumble at that.

The lamb and the lions are symbols. The new is the new man, it’s not symbolic of anything, it’s a new creation in the believer.

So the example you give doesn’t work.

Now what I don’t understand is why do you question the fact the new man is created by a union between the believer and Christ. Do you not believe that’s true? What’s your angle here?

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus fulfilled ALL the Old Law through His righteous life, sacrificial death, and miraculous resurrection! Once Christ came, the purpose of the Law was finished. The Law of Old served as a teacher until Christ came. Then it was made manifest that we are all children of God not by biological birth, or by obedience to the Old Law, but by faith in Christ Jesus. Once faith for all who believe came, we are baptized unto Christ, no longer under the teacher the Law was, but now under power of the Holy Spirit in us according to grace. The purpose God gave Old Covenant Israel the Law was because of transgressions "TIL THE SEED [Christ] would come to whom the promise was made." He is the Mediator of the New Covenant through which the Old is gone forever, and the New according to promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to all who believe.

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Romans 10:4 (KJV) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:19-29 (KJV) Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That's nice.