Who is Jesus Christ?

[Robert Gwin]

Based on a superficial view of some of your posts. I believe the main issue here is the 'trinity', which is not a Bible word, even as 'rapture' is not.

In John 17: Jesus speaking to the Father says, "we are one." I know you are familiar with it, and probably agree with me, that Jesus was not saying He and the Father are One and the same Person. We know God is a Person as well as a Spirit by Heb 1:3.

The Jesus only crowd (Baptized in Jesus' name only) take this to mean that Jesus is God the Father, which is not so. The key in (17:22) is that Jesus is praying His disciples, we, should be one even as He and the Father are one. If Jesus is claiming to be one and the same person as the Father, then we also all would need be one and the same person. And we are not.

He is plainly praying to be one in unity, which is a doctrine the Bible teaches in Judges 16 and 20. In addition, I do not believe He is suggesting that we are to be one with the Father even as He is. The prayer is that we be one in unity, like He is one in unity with the Father, which of course includes the Holy Spirit.

We are the body, he is the Head, and He is one with His Head, God. 3 Persons and Heads in the Godhead, and all three perfectly one in unity.

And so, to say Jesus is God is as inaccurate to say that the Father is God, or that the Spirit is God. They all Three together are God. That is why the Word was in the beginning with God and was God. That God who made man in 'their' image. (And John 1:1 is not saying that in the beginning of the Word, or in the beginning of the Son, as though in the beginning the Son was 'created' to help God the Creator create heaven and earth)

Like the marriage of one flesh, without one, there is no marriage. And so without One of the Persons of the Godhead, there is no God. Jesus died on the cross while a man, the Son did not die, even as God did not die. With the coming of the Son of God into the world as the man Jesus, and then his crucifixion and resurrection, there is now in heaven a man: The man Christ Jesus. And standing in the midst of the throne as a slain lamb is One of the three Persons of the Godhead.

Mankind is therefore forever promised a place in heaven, because of what the Son did as Jesus in the world. This is why the New Covenant is made of better promises (Heb 8:6). The Old Covenant was conditioned on if the believers continued faithful and obedient. They did not. And so, the New Covenant is based on if our Mediator Jesus Christ continues faithful and obedient to God. His obedience unto death on the cross (Phil 2:8) proves he will.

There is God the Father, and Jesus the Son of the Father, and God that is a Spirit. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit, but rather they all three are one in God.

Now, lest we say therefore that they are separate in nature rather than simply different in Person, and somehow conclude that either the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit are somehow more God than the others. I.e. that One of the Godhead is the most God of the Three:

(I John 5:20) "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Nowhere in that Scripture is the Father nor the Spirit mentioned. Therefore, Scripture proves that Jesus is indeed the Son of God and the true God.

And that understanding we have is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Eternal life. The true God.

It seems to me, the only way to try and get around this, is if someone were to somehow 'go to the Greek' or 'dive into the Greek' and come up for air with something completely different than the plain reading and sense of the Scripture. (Which is one of the hallmarks of false doctrine) Rightly dividing the Word of truth is simple. Just do as Ezra and read it as it is written and give the natural and common sense of it, that even a child could understand... (Neh 8:8)

Now, I agree that this one verse of Scripture is a bit of a mystery to me, sense plainly the only one who appears to come close in Scripture to being God Himself alone, would be God the Father. But with this one simple little Scripture, we must rather rethink what 'God the Father' actually means. And I believe God purposely write this Scripture at the end of 1st John to counteract the idea of God the Father being the one and only true God, to the exclusion of the Son. (John 17:3)

Taken altogether, we know from Scripture: God is a Spirit, God the Father is the only true God, and the Son is the true God.

A mystery of the Godhead for sure...But in no way allowing for One of Them to be more God or less God than the Other.

Hi Bob, I agreed with your first few paragraphs, and then we parted ways sir. Jehovah is the Father, who is God. Jesus is Jehovah's only-begotten son, called that because he was the first and only creation done exclusively by Jehovah alone (nothing else existed). Yes that is a mystery, because to us humans everything had a beginning, yet Jehovah always existed. Impossible to comprehend at this time. The holy spirit is just that a spirit that belongs to God as well as to anyone He chooses to give it to, it varies in it's usage. Every live being is kept alive by it, the breath (holy spirit) of life. It is not a being, as we can see from Acts chapter 2 when Jesus sent the "helper" holy spirit.

You stated it accurately though by defining them one in unity, as are all the perfect obedient angels, and to us sinners, we to the best of our ability.

Thank you sir for you kind response and your informative post.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I don't know what you believe.

I know that you don't have a good grasp of Scripture. You are asking the elementary questions that have easy answers, if you are willing to believe the Bible.



Jesus said that He did nothing of Himself, and only did and said what the Father did. Jesus emptied Himself (from what??) and took the form of a servant. So He told us plainly the reason for these things you object to.



Thomas addressed Jesus, "My Lord and my God", not some sort of Name-of-the-Lord-in-vain thing that some would have us believe.

And of course, having taken on flesh, to live as a man, sharing in humanity, as Jeremiah wrote, God is the God of all flesh.

You think that Jesus isn't God, but Thomas did, and the Pharisees knew that was exactly that this is what Jesus was saying. That was why they picked up stones to stone Him. That was one of the reasons they wanted Him dead.

If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. One God.



And you would have us to think that because Jesus quoted the passage, He was denying He was God?

Satan will be worshiping Jesus. He will have to. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess,

Isaiah 45:21-25 KJV
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25) In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Romans 14:8-12 KJV
8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Philippians 2:8-11 KJV
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So here's the question. When Paul wrote here, that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord . . . do you suppose that he meant Jesus is our rightful ruler? That Jesus Christ is YHWH?

As I live . . . saith the LORD . . . every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

Much love!

Thank you Mark, sadly we cannot both be correct.

 

[robert derrick]

Hi Bob, I agreed with your first few paragraphs, and then we parted ways sir. Jehovah is the Father, who is God. Jesus is Jehovah's only-begotten son, called that because he was the first and only creation done exclusively by Jehovah alone (nothing else existed). Yes that is a mystery, because to us humans everything had a beginning, yet Jehovah always existed. Impossible to comprehend at this time. The holy spirit is just that a spirit that belongs to God as well as to anyone He chooses to give it to, it varies in it's usage. Every live being is kept alive by it, the breath (holy spirit) of life. It is not a being, as we can see from Acts chapter 2 when Jesus sent the "helper" holy spirit.

You stated it accurately though by defining them one in unity, as are all the perfect obedient angels, and to us sinners, we to the best of our ability.

Thank you sir for you kind response and your informative post.

You did not respond to the Scriptures that God the Father is the only true God, and that His Son is the true God, as well. So, without any response to you on these proving Scriptures, it is not that you disagree, but rather than you don't like it.

As I have responded to you point by point previously and again below, I would appreciate a like-courtesy from you:
Please respond to the Scriptures that simply state both the Father and the Son are the true God and the only true God.

Otherwise your courteous words are in word and in tongue, but not in deed and in truth.

1. Jesus is not a 'creation' of God, neither was he 'created' to help in God's creation. In the beginning of creation God and His Word and His Son were already there together to begin that work together. Jesus was not the 1st creation of God for help in His creation of heaven and earth.

2. The Holy Spirit does not belong to God, and more than the Father nor the Son belong to God. (And the Holy Spirit certainly does not belong to us. He is in and with us by birth, but he is not ours' to do with as we see fit) They all three are God, individually and together in unity. That is the mystery of God and the Godhead, not the false doctrine of the Son being the only creation done exclusively by Jehovah alone. That is mystical fantasy that Tolkien would enjoy.

3. He, the Holy Spirit shall guide us into all truth...(John 16:13). God, Who is a Person, is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Who is a Person that can be vexed and grieved (Is 63:10) (Eph 4:30).

 

[Truther]

During this time of year, many think about Jesus and what he gave for us, but who is he really?

He is a redo of the 1st Adam.

 

[robert derrick]

He is a redo of the 1st Adam.

Is that like a repo?

 

[marks]

Thank you Mark, sadly we cannot both be correct.

This is true. I believe in examining the evidence, and seeking for unity based on that evidence, which has a lot to do with why I'm on this forum.

There are passages which make unambiguous statements about things, and others which can be interpretted in more than one way. We use the explicit statements to bring understanding to those which are more ambiguous, so we can be certain which way to understand them. Would you agree with this?

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

This is true. I believe in examining the evidence, and seeking for unity based on that evidence, which has a lot to do with why I'm on this forum.

There are passages which make unambiguous statements about things, and others which can be interpretted in more than one way. We use the explicit statements to bring understanding to those which are more ambiguous, so we can be certain which way to understand them. Would you agree with this?

Much love!

I certainly would. It's called Scripture interpreting itself.

All answers God would have us know are in Scripture. We can read Scripture for itself, and also God can inspire us with leaps of interpretation and understanding, that also must be proven by Scripture.

And, of course, as with the present thread, God can just tell us plainly that Jesus is the true God (I John 5:20). No need for 'interpretation' nor leaps of inspiration, and just take the Scripture as it is plainly written. Any efforts to sidestep or deny is at that point an end of legitimate and edifying discussion.

Jesus is not only God, but the Son is the true God. And God the Father is the only true God. Each One is truly God and they are both together in perfect unity as God. They have been so from everlasting to everlasting, and in the beginning of creation they worked together to create the heaven and the earth, as well as man in their own image.

That is the mystery of the Godhead and God creator of all things... The unscriptural teaching of Jesus being a created being called the Son, by God the Father, for the purpose of creating heaven and earth is a mystical deism, that likes to refer to 'Jehovah' for fashionable effect.

Until such people are ready to Scripturally refute or differently interpret with reasonable sense John 17:3 and I John 5:20, then at least for me, there remains no more room for godly discussion. People can believe what they want, and can even try to feel special about their very special, nay near mystical hidden knowledge of things, that normal average sensible believers of Jesus never would have thunk, except some really learned individuals managed to figure all on their lonesome: And God never would have thunk it either (Jerem 19:5, 32:35).

 

[Truther]

Is that like a repo?

Yep.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Who is JESUS CHRIST? HE Is Almighty God! Amen?:

The Case FOR The Triune GodHead!

Be Blessed!

 

[Robert Gwin]

This is true. I believe in examining the evidence, and seeking for unity based on that evidence, which has a lot to do with why I'm on this forum.

There are passages which make unambiguous statements about things, and others which can be interpretted in more than one way. We use the explicit statements to bring understanding to those which are more ambiguous, so we can be certain which way to understand them. Would you agree with this?

Much love!

I believe you think you are right, as well as I. I think you are a kind individual, that has formed a different conclusion as I with the evidence presented.

 

[Robert Gwin]

He is a redo of the 1st Adam.

kind of sir, he is referred to in the Bible as the last Adam: (1 Corinthians 15:45) . . .it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


Good call

 

[Robert Gwin]

You did not respond to the Scriptures that God the Father is the only true God, and that His Son is the true God, as well. So, without any response to you on these proving Scriptures, it is not that you disagree, but rather than you don't like it.

As I have responded to you point by point previously and again below, I would appreciate a like-courtesy from you:
Please respond to the Scriptures that simply state both the Father and the Son are the true God and the only true God.

Otherwise your courteous words are in word and in tongue, but not in deed and in truth.

1. Jesus is not a 'creation' of God, neither was he 'created' to help in God's creation. In the beginning of creation God and His Word and His Son were already there together to begin that work together. Jesus was not the 1st creation of God for help in His creation of heaven and earth.

2. The Holy Spirit does not belong to God, and more than the Father nor the Son belong to God. (And the Holy Spirit certainly does not belong to us. He is in and with us by birth, but he is not ours' to do with as we see fit) They all three are God, individually and together in unity. That is the mystery of God and the Godhead, not the false doctrine of the Son being the only creation done exclusively by Jehovah alone. That is mystical fantasy that Tolkien would enjoy.

3. He, the Holy Spirit shall guide us into all truth...(John 16:13). God, Who is a Person, is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Who is a Person that can be vexed and grieved (Is 63:10) (Eph 4:30).

Lets take them one at a time Bob, (If you do not like me calling you Bob, please say). You say:1. Jesus is not a 'creation' of God, neither was he 'created' to help in God's creation. In the beginning of creation God and His Word and His Son were already there together to begin that work together. Jesus was not the 1st creation of God for help in His creation of heaven and earth.

I say the Bible teaches that Jesus was created: John 1:1 opens with In the beginning was the Word. I think we both agree the Word was Jesus, do we agree that beginning here is speaking about the beginning of Creation?

If you think Proverbs 8 which personifies wisdom is really referring to Jesus, then notice verse 22:
22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

Now a bit clearer:
(Colossians 1:15) . . .He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

And point blank:
(Revelation 3:14) . . .These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

If you have been following the thread, as well as scripture you know that Jesus is begotten, in other words he is an offspring. He is referred to as the only-begotten son amongst all of God's sons either created or pro-created because being the "beginning of the creation of God" he was created exclusively by Jehovah Himself as nothing else existed. Col 1:16 points out that everything else came into existence through him, as the master craftsman Pro 8:30.

I know it is virtually impossible, and I personally believe it is actually impossible to believe that God existed only and that He had no beginning, but that is the way we understand it to be. Perhaps one day our minds will be able to comprehend that.

If you agree, great, if not present your next point. Thank you, Bob (me).

 

[Truther]

kind of sir, he is referred to in the Bible as the last Adam: (1 Corinthians 15:45) . . .it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


Good call

Yes, the 1st Adam got us into this mess, so another Adam got us out of this mess.

 

[marks]

I believe you think you are right, as well as I. I think you are a kind individual, that has formed a different conclusion as I with the evidence presented.

You seem like a nice guy yourself! Yes, we've formed different conclusions, but there is blessing to be gained in reaching better understandings. Would you agree with that also?

Hebrews 2:5-8 KJV
5) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6) But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Jesus is not one of the angels.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

If you agree, great, if not present your next point. Thank you, Bob (me).

There is no 'next point' to bring, since you persist in not addressing my main point that I have asked you to address before: that Jesus is the true God, as Scripture plainly says.

This is not an oversight on your part, but a purposed refusal. It is likewise a glaring discourtesy between serious minded researchers that disagree.

Until you do so, we are not being treated equally well in respect, even though you wax politely with your lips. So long as you remain unheard on this point, it will be taken as an agreement with it, and an admission of guilt, that your whole argument is false from first to last.

The Son is the true God.

 

[Hemlock]

Not-Godders and non-trinnies have places to go on the net; where Trinity believers and those of us who think Jesus is God are seen as following a false god.

Hopefully the Not-Godders will GO THERE and Christians will remain at Christianityboard.

 

[robert derrick]

Not-Godders and non-trinnies have places to go on the net; where Trinity believers and those of us who think Jesus is God are seen as following a false god.

Hopefully the Not-Godders will GO THERE and Christians will remain at Christianityboard.

Not-Godders and non-trinnies... Never heard of those before.

Are you telling such people to GO TO....

 

[Hemlock]

Theology Forums.com

 

[robert derrick]

Theology Forums.com

Theology: World religion.

 

[Robert Gwin]

There is no 'next point' to bring, since you persist in not addressing my main point that I have asked you to address before: that Jesus is the true God, as Scripture plainly says.

This is not an oversight on your part, but a purposed refusal. It is likewise a glaring discourtesy between serious minded researchers that disagree.

Until you do so, we are not being treated equally well in respect, even though you wax politely with your lips. So long as you remain unheard on this point, it will be taken as an agreement with it, and an admission of guilt, that your whole argument is false from first to last.

The Son is the true God.

That is not a Bible teaching sir, Jehovah does not have a God, why does Jesus? You stated Jesus wasn't created, w