Who is Jesus Christ?

[marks]

I am unfamiliar with that term Marks, but if someone told me they had the spirit of Christ, I would say they would be doing their best to imitate him. That is what went through my head anyway. Is there a particular passage that you have in mind concerning that phrase?

Yes, Romans 8:

Romans 8:5-11 KJV
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No sir, Jesus did not accept worship as God, in fact he clearly pointed out that it is Jehovah your God you must worship, and to Him alone render sacred service when the devil tried to get him to worship him. Best research the word proskuneo sir, as you will see there are degrees of worship. A prime example is found at Mat 18:26

I'm not talking about proskuneo, actually. Thomas also declared Jesus to be his Lord and God.

I already know your answer to that. It's not consistent with the time. It doesn't wash, Thomas was just making an exclamation. My Lord!! My God!!! It's you, alive! That's not how they spoke. That's a modern idea.

Even so . . . the Jews at the time knew what Jesus meant, that's why they wanted to kill Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I am unfamiliar with that term Marks, but if someone told me they had the spirit of Christ, I would say they would be doing their best to imitate him. That is what went through my head anyway. Is there a particular passage that you have in mind concerning that phrase?

The thing of this is, you really should be familiar with this passages, all of them, before concluding that Jesus is NOT God come as a Man to save us. Jesus warned that there would be false christs. The Bible was given us to know the True God.

Much love!

 

[Amazed@grace]

May I ask you, do you know if there is a way to go back to the previous conversation here, without scrolling through all the previous posts?

If you mean going back to what you or someone else posted ? Just scroll up to either one of your quoted posts, or someone else's, like marks as example. To the right of their name you'll see an arrow pointing up. If you click that, the system will scroll back to where that post, in quotes now, originally appeared in the thread.

Hope that is what you were looking for.

 

[Robert Gwin]

If you mean going back to what you or someone else posted ? Just scroll up to either one of your quoted posts, or someone else's, like marks as example. To the right of their name you'll see an arrow pointing up. If you click that, the system will scroll back to where that post, in quotes now, originally appeared in the thread.

Hope that is what you were looking for.

Thanks maam, I see the arrows but they only take me to the top or bottom of the page. some sites have ways to go back to what you said to me last, then what I said to you, then you etc. without having to scroll thorough all the pages and others comments. I do not see that here, likely it is me. I hope you or someone can help. Thanks very much for trying. Heck I don't even know how to like a post.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The thing of this is, you really should be familiar with this passages, all of them, before concluding that Jesus is NOT God come as a Man to save us. Jesus warned that there would be false christs. The Bible was given us to know the True God.

Much love!

Yes Mark, that is very true. We have to know God, and that is why He provided the Bible. Jesus left no doubt by his words alone who God is. Do you know which God it is that Jesus taught us about?

 

[Robert Gwin]

I'm not talking about proskuneo, actually. Thomas also declared Jesus to be his Lord and God.

I already know your answer to that. It's not consistent with the time. It doesn't wash, Thomas was just making an exclamation. My Lord!! My God!!! It's you, alive! That's not how they spoke. That's a modern idea.

Even so . . . the Jews at the time knew what Jesus meant, that's why they wanted to kill Him.

Much love!

Notice the exclamation mark at the end of the passage Mark, was Thomas calling Jesus his God, or in his excitement of discovering this man in front of him really was Jesus? Thomas was an apostle, who worshiped the same God as Jesus sir. He fully knew who God is, and of course that is the God of Jesus.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, Romans 8:

Romans 8:5-11 KJV
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Much love!

Thanks Mark for bringing out the passage. That has a lot to do with the baptisms we have been conversing about. Do you know who that passage applies to? Yes they are Christians, but which particular group of Christians Jn 10:16

 

[Robert Gwin]

If you click the little arrow next to the name, it will link you to that post. Then you can click that arrow, and go back to the previous quoted post.

Where it says, "Robert Gwin said", just to the right is a little ghost arrow.

Hopefully that will help.

Much love!

Aah! Thanks so very much Marks, I can barely see it on my computer, but I did see it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

If you mean going back to what you or someone else posted ? Just scroll up to either one of your quoted posts, or someone else's, like marks as example. To the right of their name you'll see an arrow pointing up. If you click that, the system will scroll back to where that post, in quotes now, originally appeared in the thread.

Hope that is what you were looking for.

Thanks again maam. I found it, barely visible on my computer screen, so happy, then I hit arrow back on my webpage and it moves me forward. I figured it was me, and I truly thank you for your assistance.

 

[Robert Gwin]

He did come in flesh. As his angel said, and as Jesus said, nd as the Old Testament prophecied.

Are you one of the elect 144,000?

Yes maam, Jesus came in the flesh, God sent him Jn 3:13, 16

No maam, I am not. Great that you know about them. Do you know why they are bought out from among mankind?

 

[Amazed@grace]

Yes maam, Jesus came in the flesh, God sent him Jn 3:13, 16

Yes, God sent himself to save the world. Immanuel=God with us.

No maam, I am not.

What happens to those JW's who are not among the 144,000?

 

[Amazed@grace]

Thanks again maam. I found it, barely visible on my computer screen, so happy, then I hit arrow back on my webpage and it moves me forward. I figured it was me, and I truly thank you for your assistance.

My pleasure. The arrows are hard to see. It isn't just you.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, God sent himself to save the world. Immanuel=God with us.


What happens to those JW's who are not among the 144,000?

Thanks for asking me maam. No doubt you are quite familiar with the gift that God gives, everlasting life. God created humans to live on earth, and he did not fail, nor did His purpose change when Adam sinned. Isa 45:18. Likely you are familiar with Jesus' words at Mat 5:3, in which he was basing it on the passages of Ps 37:9-11, 29.

I believe you can quote the Lord's prayer and are familiar with thy Kingdom come; yes coming here maam, the earth. Those of the 144k have been bought out to serve as Kings and Priests alongside Jesus in the Kingdom Rev 5:9,10, and yes they will reside in heaven with Jesus Rev 14:1-3 but all the rest of Jehovah's people will inherit the earth and dwell therein forever Ps 37:29

Isn't that great? We will be in paradise just like Jesus promised one of those who died at his side.

 

[marks]

Notice the exclamation mark at the end of the passage Mark, was Thomas calling Jesus his God, or in his excitement of discovering this man in front of him really was Jesus? Thomas was an apostle, who worshiped the same God as Jesus sir. He fully knew who God is, and of course that is the God of Jesus.

Like I said, those kinds of empty exclamations are more about our language and way of speaking, not theirs.

And punctuation is from the translators. Thomas addressed Jesus as his Lord and God, Jesus had no problem with that.

Much love!

 

[Amazed@grace]

Thanks for asking me maam. No doubt you are quite familiar with the gift that God gives, everlasting life. God created humans to live on earth, and he did not fail, nor did His purpose change when Adam sinned. Isa 45:18. Likely you are familiar with Jesus' words at Mat 5:3, in which he was basing it on the passages of Ps 37:9-11, 29.

I believe you can quote the Lord's prayer and are familiar with thy Kingdom come; yes coming here maam, the earth. Those of the 144k have been bought out to serve as Kings and Priests alongside Jesus in the Kingdom Rev 5:9,10, and yes they will reside in heaven with Jesus Rev 14:1-3 but all the rest of Jehovah's people will inherit the earth and dwell therein forever Ps 37:29

Isn't that great? We will be in paradise just like Jesus promised one of those who died at his side.

Thank you for your answer.
May I go further and also ask, how do those not in the 144,000 number know this in this life?
And lastly, are those not in that number saved?
Thank you for indulging my questions. I could look online at a JW site however, I prefer asking a member of the hall.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Thank you for your answer.
May I go further and also ask, how do those not in the 144,000 number know this in this life?
And lastly, are those not in that number saved?
Thank you for indulging my questions. I could look online at a JW site however, I prefer asking a member of the hall.

I truly appreciate your asking me maam. It is easier for sure, even I have trouble navigating that site and I am one of Jehovah's witnesses, the only thing is, the site will be exacting whereas as individuals we are subject to error.

The Bible states: (Romans 8:14-17) . . .For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.
This video link explains it well: https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtMorningWorship/pub-jwb_202005_9_VIDEO It is a 10 minute video.

Our teaching is the anointed know beyond a reasonable doubt they are anointed, therefore if there is any question in our minds, then most likely we are not.

Saved is an unusual topic, as most do not know what it means. Those who are actually "saved" will actually receive the gift of everlasting life. This is guaranteed to no one, for one to say they are "saved" today is definitely not a guarantee that they will receive the gift, matter of fact that logically would be an indicator that they really do not believe Jesus who clearly stated they must endure to the end to be saved. Mat 24:13 A prime example would definitely be Judas, if there were people who were "saved" or guaranteed salvation it would be him, he was an apostle who personally walked with Jesus. However, he apostatized and Jesus stated it would have been better for him if he had not been born. Mat 26:24

Another reasoning point on this to consider, if an anointed one quits serving Jehovah there is no ransom for them. Heb 6:4 Obviously those who are partakers of the holy ghost (KJV) who have tasted the heavenly gift, would be considered "saved"; but clearly if they fall away they are no longer in that state, matter of fact they cannot regain that. That clearly does not apply to those who have not received the holy spirit anointing though.

All persons who die and have not sinned against the holy spirit will be resurrected Rom 6:7; Rev 20:13

Again, thank you for your kindness, and giving me the opportunity to address your questions. Bob

 

[Robert Gwin]

Like I said, those kinds of empty exclamations are more about our language and way of speaking, not theirs.

And punctuation is from the translators. Thomas addressed Jesus as his Lord and God, Jesus had no problem with that.

Much love!

You and I believe that God cannot lie I believe. Jesus clearly stated that he did not know the day or hour, nor could he give permission to grant position in heaven Mark 10:40;13:32. If he truly is God then those statements would clearly be lies, as well as he tried to deceive us into believing there was a God in heaven while he was here who was his God even Jn 4:24; Jn 20:17. When he was alone and praying to his God and Father at John 17, stating he made His name known, what would be the point if Jehovah was he? No sir, Thomas knew God, as he was an apostle of Jesus.

Jesus himself stated to satan who tried to get him to worship him: (Matthew 4:10) . . .“Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

My question to you is, if Jesus is God, what hope do we have if his teachings are found to be deceptive and false?

 

[marks]

You and I believe that God cannot lie I believe

I don't know what you believe.

I know that you don't have a good grasp of Scripture. You are asking the elementary questions that have easy answers, if you are willing to believe the Bible.

Jesus clearly stated that he did not know the day or hour, nor could he give permission to grant position in heaven Mark 10:40;13:32.

Jesus said that He did nothing of Himself, and only did and said what the Father did. Jesus emptied Himself (from what??) and took the form of a servant. So He told us plainly the reason for these things you object to.

If he truly is God then those statements would clearly be lies, as well as he tried to deceive us into believing there was a God in heaven while he was here who was his God even Jn 4:24; Jn 20:17. When he was alone and praying to his God and Father at John 17, stating he made His name known, what would be the point if Jehovah was he? No sir, Thomas knew God, as he was an apostle of Jesus.

Thomas addressed Jesus, "My Lord and my God", not some sort of Name-of-the-Lord-in-vain thing that some would have us believe.

And of course, having taken on flesh, to live as a man, sharing in humanity, as Jeremiah wrote, God is the God of all flesh.

You think that Jesus isn't God, but Thomas did, and the Pharisees knew that was exactly that this is what Jesus was saying. That was why they picked up stones to stone Him. That was one of the reasons they wanted Him dead.

If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father. One God.

Jesus himself stated to satan who tried to get him to worship him: (Matthew 4:10) . . .“Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

And you would have us to think that because Jesus quoted the passage, He was denying He was God?

Satan will be worshiping Jesus. He will have to. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess,

Isaiah 45:21-25 KJV
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25) In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Romans 14:8-12 KJV
8) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9) For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Philippians 2:8-11 KJV
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So here's the question. When Paul wrote here, that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord . . . do you suppose that he meant Jesus is our rightful ruler? That Jesus Christ is YHWH?

As I live . . . saith the LORD . . . every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.

Much love!

 

[robert derrick]

I truly appreciate your asking me maam. It is easier for sure, even I have trouble navigating that site and I am one of Jehovah's witnesses, the only thing is, the site will be exacting whereas as individuals we are subject to error.

The Bible states: (Romans 8:14-17) . . .For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.
This video link explains it well: https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtMorningWorship/pub-jwb_202005_9_VIDEO It is a 10 minute video.

Our teaching is the anointed know beyond a reasonable doubt they are anointed, therefore if there is any question in our minds, then most likely we are not.

Saved is an unusual topic, as most do not know what it means. Those who are actually "saved" will actually receive the gift of everlasting life. This is guaranteed to no one, for one to say they are "saved" today is definitely not a guarantee that they will receive the gift, matter of fact that logically would be an indicator that they really do not believe Jesus who clearly stated they must endure to the end to be saved. Mat 24:13 A prime example would definitely be Judas, if there were people who were "saved" or guaranteed salvation it would be him, he was an apostle who personally walked with Jesus. However, he apostatized and Jesus stated it would have been better for him if he had not been born. Mat 26:24

Another reasoning point on this to consider, if an anointed one quits serving Jehovah there is no ransom for them. Heb 6:4 Obviously those who are partakers of the holy ghost (KJV) who have tasted the heavenly gift, would be considered "saved"; but clearly if they fall away they are no longer in that state, matter of fact they cannot regain that. That clearly does not apply to those who have not received the holy spirit anointing though.

All persons who die and have not sinned against the holy spirit will be resurrected Rom 6:7; Rev 20:13

Again, thank you for your kindness, and giving me the opportunity to address your questions. Bob

Based on a superficial view of some of your posts. I believe the main issue here is the 'trinity', which is not a Bible word, even as 'rapture' is not.

In John 17: Jesus speaking to the Father says, "we are one." I know you are familiar with it, and probably agree with me, that Jesus was not saying He and the Father are One and the same Person. We know God is a Person as well as a Spirit by Heb 1:3.

The Jesus only crowd (Baptized in Jesus' name only) take this to mean that Jesus is God the Father, which is not so. The key in (17:22) is that Jesus is praying His disciples, we, should be one even as He and the Father are one. If Jesus is claiming to be one and the same person as the Father, then we also all would need be one and the same person. And we are not.

He is plainly praying to be one in unity, which is a doctrine the Bible teaches in Judges 16 and 20. In addition, I do not believe He is suggesting that we are to be one with the Father even as He is. The prayer is that we be one in unity, like He is one in unity with the Father, which of course includes the Holy Spirit.

We are the body, he is the Head, and He is one with His Head, God. 3 Persons and Heads in the Godhead, and all three perfectly one in unity.

And so, to say Jesus is God is as inaccurate to say that the Father is God, or that the Spirit is God. They all Three together are God. That is why the Word was in the beginning with God and was God. That God who made man in 'their' image. (And John 1:1 is not saying that in the beginning of the Word, or in the beginning of the Son, as though in the beginning the Son was 'created' to help God the Creator create heaven and earth)

Like the marriage of one flesh, without one, there is no marriage. And so without One of the Persons of the Godhead, there is no God. Jesus died on the cross while a man, the Son did not die, even as God did not die. With the coming of the Son of God into the world as the man Jesus, and then his crucifixion and resurrection, there is now in heaven a man: The man Christ Jesus. And standing in the midst of the throne as a slain lamb is One of the three Persons of the Godhead.

Mankind is therefore forever promised a place in heaven, because of what the Son did as Jesus in the world. This is why the New Covenant is made of better promises (Heb 8:6). The Old Covenant was conditioned on if the believers continued faithful and obedient. They did not. And so, the New Covenant is based on if our Mediator Jesus Christ continues faithful and obedient to God. His obedience unto death on the cross (Phil 2:8) proves he will.

There is God the Father, and Jesus the Son of the Father, and God that is a Spirit. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit, but rather they all three are one in God.

Now, lest we say therefore that they are separate in nature rather than simply different in Person, and somehow conclude that either the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit are somehow more God than the others. I.e. that One of the Godhead is the most God of the Three:

(I John 5:20) "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Nowhere in that Scripture is the Father nor the Spirit mentioned. Therefore, Scripture proves that Jesus is indeed the Son of God and the true God.

And that understanding we have is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Eternal life. The true God.

It seems to me, the only way to try and get around this, is if someone were to somehow 'go to the Greek' or 'dive into the Greek' and come up for air with something completely different than the plain reading and sense of the Scripture. (Which is one of the hallmarks of false doctrine) Rightly dividing the Word of truth is simple. Just do as Ezra and read it as it is written and give the natural and common sense of it, that even a child could understand... (Neh 8:8)

Now, I agree that this one verse of Scripture is a bit of a mystery to me, sense plainly the only one who appears to come close in Scripture to being God Himself alone, would be God the Father. But with this one simple little Scripture, we must rather rethink what 'God the Father' actually means. And I believe God purposely write this Scripture at the end of 1st John to counteract the idea of God the Father being the one and only true God, to the exclusion of the Son. (John 17:3)

Taken altogether, we know from Scripture: God is a Spirit, God the Father is the only true God, and the Son is the true God.

A mystery of the Godhead for sure...But in no way allowing for One of Them to be more God or less God than the Other.