Davy
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NOT for the UNBELIEVING JEWS in today's Jerusalem He hasn't.
And the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is SPECIFICALLY about Daniel's people, and Jerusalem, NOT the Christian Church!
Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?
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NOT for the UNBELIEVING JEWS in today's Jerusalem He hasn't.
And the Daniel 9 seventy weeks prophecy is SPECIFICALLY about Daniel's people, and Jerusalem, NOT the Christian Church!
Truth7t7
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"Petra wont play a part in future fulfillment" as dispensationalism teaches, the scripture clearly names the places of refuge in the wilderness of (Carmel, Bashan, and Gilead) Micah 7:14 below
Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power
Luke 21:20-21KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You have no understanding of what Jesus accomplished on the cross! He made reconciliation for the sins of all people of all time, including Daniel's people! To say that He has not yet made reconciliation for the iniquity of unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem is BLASPHEMY! He most certainly has! What do you want Him to do, die on the cross again for the unbelieving Jews of today when He returns?
Davy
Well-Known Member
KJV Luke 3
5 Every valley shall be filled [in], and every mountain and hill shall be brought low [leveled]; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
> In other words, in Christ there shall be equality of people before God. Both in their sinfulness and in their salvation.
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
KJV Zech. 14 is both spiritually and physically prophetic.
Jesus is the "mountain Valley" that the divided houses of Israel and Judah are to flee to.
Only by individual faith in Christ will one find unity and peace in that division/separation between the two houses of Israel.
Can you hear the words of the NT scriptures being spoken here?
KJV Zech. 14
5 And ye shall flee TO the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
Q. Who came and was/is that Light?
A. Jesus: "I am the light of the world". John 8:12
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea [saints who lived under the OC], and half of them toward the hinder sea [saints living under the NC]: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Q. Who came and spoke of living waters?
A. Jesus. John 7:38
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Unbelieving Jews, Davy, are not Jews of God. As Paul (who of course was very, very, very Jewish) says, "...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)
Grace and peace to you.
Also, @Davy .... <smile>... about God's Israel...
Hosea the prophet ministered during the eighth century BC and focused his attention primarily on the northern kingdom of Israel. During the early part of Hosea’s ministry, Jeroboam II ruled over Israel and the northern kingdom enjoyed a good deal of prosperity. But spiritually and morally, the Israelites were bankrupt, having fallen into idolatry that would ultimately cause God to drive them out of their land in 722 BC.
The people were in a sad condition indeed, and part of what made it so tragic was that the people had failed to be what God called them to be ~ a royal priesthood and a light to the nations (Exodus 19:5–6; Isaiah 42:6). This failure occurred despite God’s having graciously adopted Israel as His son, as Hosea 11:1 indicates. Israel was not true to its filial identity and was finally cast out of the land. But Hosea also saw that God’s anger against His people would not last forever; He would provide a renewed Israel who would serve the Lord faithfully (Hosea 11:2–12; see Hosea 2:14–23).
That hope for a new Israel ~ a true Israel that would embody all that God called Israel to be ~ persisted across the centuries into the New Testament era. This hope was finally fulfilled in the incarnation of God’s true Son by nature, Jesus Christ. Matthew tells us that Jesus fulfills Hosea 11 in Matthew 2:13–15...
Jesus is the true Israel, the faithful Israel who succeeds where old covenant Israel failed. Like ancient Israel, He came up out of Egypt, passed through the waters, and was tested in the wilderness (Matthew 2:13–15; 3:13–4:11; see also Exodus 12:40–42; 14:1–31; 16:4). Unlike old covenant Israel, however, Jesus passed the test. He is therefore worthy to be called God’s Son because of Who He is in His deity and because of what He accomplished in His humanity.
The good news of the gospel tells us that we can be the true Israel of God as well. If we are in Christ, we share in the privileges and relationship He enjoys as God’s true Son. We are not sons of God by nature; rather, we are sons of God by adoption, His beloved children in Christ. As such, we inherit all of the promises given to old covenant Israel. Those promises of God that Israel would rule over her enemies and enjoy abundant covenant blessings (for example, Isaiah 14:1–2) ~ those promises are for all of God’s people, the true Israel of God consisting of Jews and Gentiles who are united to Christ by faith alone. In Him we are the true Israel of God, heirs of the glorious destiny promised to God’s old covenant people (Zephaniah 3:14–20).
Grace and peace to you.
Hosea the prophet ministered during the eighth century BC and focused his attention primarily on the northern kingdom of Israel. During the early part of Hosea’s ministry, Jeroboam II ruled over Israel and the northern kingdom enjoyed a good deal of prosperity. But spiritually and morally, the Israelites were bankrupt, having fallen into idolatry that would ultimately cause God to drive them out of their land in 722 BC.
The people were in a sad condition indeed, and part of what made it so tragic was that the people had failed to be what God called them to be ~ a royal priesthood and a light to the nations (Exodus 19:5–6; Isaiah 42:6). This failure occurred despite God’s having graciously adopted Israel as His son, as Hosea 11:1 indicates. Israel was not true to its filial identity and was finally cast out of the land. But Hosea also saw that God’s anger against His people would not last forever; He would provide a renewed Israel who would serve the Lord faithfully (Hosea 11:2–12; see Hosea 2:14–23).
That hope for a new Israel ~ a true Israel that would embody all that God called Israel to be ~ persisted across the centuries into the New Testament era. This hope was finally fulfilled in the incarnation of God’s true Son by nature, Jesus Christ. Matthew tells us that Jesus fulfills Hosea 11 in Matthew 2:13–15...
"Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, 'Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.' And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, 'Out of Egypt I called my son.')."
Jesus is the true Israel, the faithful Israel who succeeds where old covenant Israel failed. Like ancient Israel, He came up out of Egypt, passed through the waters, and was tested in the wilderness (Matthew 2:13–15; 3:13–4:11; see also Exodus 12:40–42; 14:1–31; 16:4). Unlike old covenant Israel, however, Jesus passed the test. He is therefore worthy to be called God’s Son because of Who He is in His deity and because of what He accomplished in His humanity.
The good news of the gospel tells us that we can be the true Israel of God as well. If we are in Christ, we share in the privileges and relationship He enjoys as God’s true Son. We are not sons of God by nature; rather, we are sons of God by adoption, His beloved children in Christ. As such, we inherit all of the promises given to old covenant Israel. Those promises of God that Israel would rule over her enemies and enjoy abundant covenant blessings (for example, Isaiah 14:1–2) ~ those promises are for all of God’s people, the true Israel of God consisting of Jews and Gentiles who are united to Christ by faith alone. In Him we are the true Israel of God, heirs of the glorious destiny promised to God’s old covenant people (Zephaniah 3:14–20).
Grace and peace to you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
All who are in Christ become Daniels people = Gospel
Daniel 9:24-26 Fulfilled
Daniel 9:27 soon coming
Davy
Well-Known Member
I'm only repeating what is written in Daniel 9 with it giving the 70 weeks prophecy events that must be fulfilled. Why do you have a problem with that Daniel 9:24 Scripture???
Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
KJV
And you wanna' try and say Israelites born of the seed are actually Gentiles?? That's crazy, and very un-Biblical.
When Apostle Paul used the title of Jew for an 'inwardly' Jew, pointing to one in Christ Jesus, the nationality of the Israelite did not change. Those born of the seed of Israel are still seed of Israel, Israelites. And the title of Jew regarding seed applied only to the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11 forward.
There were strangers, foreigners also, not born of the 'seed' of Israel, that were converted Jews that lived in Judea. Those are the Gentiles that 'became' religious Jews in that sense, but that has nothing to do with the actual 'seed' of Israel. Likewise with those in Christ of the Gentiles, they are not of the 'seed' of Israel, but are considered spiritual Israel just like Paul's metaphor of the inwardly Jew of Romans 2:29, as Paul was speaking in the spiritual sense about spiritual circumcision of the heart, and not literal a literal flesh cutting.
Wake up. God's Word covers a whole... lot of metaphorical examples using natural things.
Davy
Well-Known Member
All that is true, and is what The New Testament teaches. It's also prophecy that was first written in The Old Testament too, because there are many examples of God's Salvation going to the Gentiles in final. Hosea was just one of them.
But none of that changes the continued forever existence of the natural born BELIEVING seed of Israel, because God made that promise of their existing as a nation forever in Jeremiah 31:36, and He was talking about the actual 'seed' of Israel...
Jer 31:35-36
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
KJV
The above promise to the 'seed' of Israel is why Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11 that many of his deceived Jewish brethren will have their spiritual blindness removed that God put upon them so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. And Paul taught it will happen for them at the fullness of the Gentiles. It will be then that many of the unbelieving Jews will convert to Jesus Christ. That will happen when Jesus appears coming in the clouds.
But some Churches today, go too far with this, and try to create a Gentile only Church, which does not exist per New Testament Bible Scripture, and they even try to use Apostle Paul as its creator when Paul never promoted such an idea.
Davy
Well-Known Member
When you claim I have no understanding of what Lord Jesus Christ did upon His cross, that makes you a LIAR. And the amount of material I have posted on this Forum is proof against what YOU say, showing all the more your statement against me in your Post #663 is a flat LIE.
I'm thinking, maybe, in Christ's coming THOUSAND YEARS MILLENNIUM REIGN over the wicked, when He returns in our near future, I'm thinking I may ask to have you come and be taught by me, and under the "rod of iron" Lord Jesus promised His faithful that will reign with Him.
Oh yeah, but you don't believe The Bible Scriptures in Revelation 20 about Lord Jesus Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect. YOU WILL BELIEVE, it's coming.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Protect your heart and mind from the lie of pre-trib rapture = Matthew 4:4
"Rapture" as "departure" is a modernist malinterpretation nonexistent in the historical orthodox Church before the 19th century.
Same with the Church as "restrainer".
Not really.
2nd Thes 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the
The 4th generation Latin Vulgate used the word DEPARTURE.
The 1384 Wycliffe bible used DEPARTURE
The 1388 Wycliffe Purvey bible used DEPARTURE
The 1526 Tyndale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1535 Coverdale bible used DEPARTURE
The 1539 Crammer bible used DEPARTURE
The 1540 Great bible used DEPARTURE
The 1560 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
The 1576 Breeches bible used DEPARTING
The 1582 Rhiems bible used REVOLT...The first complete English Catholic translation.
The 1583 Beza bible used DEPARTING
The 1608 Geneva bible used DEPARTING
Note: The Rheims translators explicitly rejected "departing" because they wanted to frame the text as a prophecy against the Protestant Reformation. By using "revolt," they directly accused the Protestants of causing the end-times apostasia by revolting against the Roman Catholic Church and the authority of the Pope.
The changing of the world was a theologically biased based reason rather than a literal direct translation.
The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard seen in modern bibles.
Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century.
The relevant Bible translations which it is claimed contain the dogma were all written by Reformers from the 14th to 17th centuries. No Reformer ever heard of a pretrib rapture. Suffering as they were under the apostate papal antichrist, they would have found the idea risibly absurd.
"Ice T." admits one J.S. Mabie as being the first to conjure it in 1859:
"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."
The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center
Thoroughly debunked here.
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