Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[PeterAndroz]

So you are thinking that 2 Thes. 1:10 doesn't reveal anyone being "caught up into the clouds instantly"? Not so! Please notice the word "WHEN".

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 WHEN he shall COME to be glorified in his saints [dead in Christ], and to be admired in all them that believe [we who are ALIVE and remain] (because our testimony among you was believed) in that DAY.

Because the word "revealed" is used in the above scriptures, you disagree with them because it doesn't specifically line up to your man made doctrine of a so called SECRET Rapture, whereby Jesus SECRETLY returns, and the saints are supposedly snatched away and upto Christ, of which NO ONE ELSE can see!!
I vehemently disagree with anything that promotes a SECRET Rapture.

2 Thess 1:10 refers to when Christ comes NO reference to clouds
1 Thess 4:17 states caught up


1 Cor 15:52 states in the twinkling of an eye
....
I vehemently disagree with you

 

[CrowCross]

The ECFs and apologists reveal the identity of the restrainer. History confirms it.

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...

The early church believed that the pagan imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer (i.e. the "letter" or "withholder") which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which, until then, was forestalling the emergence of the antichrist apostate papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as "that man of sin", "the son of perdition", and "that Wicked".

In the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for Paul not to explicitly identify Him. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

The Thessalonians did know whereof Paul was speaking. 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

And the Reformers recognized and understood both Paul and history.

Sooooooooooooooo just where are we in the biblical timeline?????????

 

[CTK]

The ECFs and apologists reveal the identity of the restrainer. History confirms it.

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...

The early church believed that the pagan imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer (i.e. the "letter" or "withholder") which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which, until then, was forestalling the emergence of the antichrist apostate papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as "that man of sin", "the son of perdition", and "that Wicked".

In the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for Paul not to explicitly identify Him. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

The Thessalonians did know whereof Paul was speaking. 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

And the Reformers recognized and understood both Paul and history.

Here is a pdf for the reflective narrative in the Daniel commentary regarding the "Restrainer."

 

[PeterAndroz]

Sooooooooooooooo just where are we in the biblical timeline?????????

Somewhere before 2 Thess 2:3 unless we all missed the worldwide declaration of ""and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;""

 

[covenantee]

Sooooooooooooooo just where are we in the biblical timeline?????????

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[CTK]

Somewhere before 2 Thess 2:3 unless we all missed the worldwide declaration of ""and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;""

I hope you do not mind, but I would respectfully request you might read the PDF recently sent regarding the "restrainer." Thanks, and I look forward to your thoughts.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I hope you do not mind, but I would respectfully request you might read the PDF recently sent regarding the "restrainer." Thanks, and I look forward to your thoughts.

Hey CT, found it & had a quick skim through
I accept and believe that 'prophesy' resumes after the current 'mystery' age ends c/- the rapture and that the 'restrainer' currently is the HS
Yourself & others may have a different view.

 

[Scott Downey]

Personally I believe the restrainer is still restraining evil celestial beings.
Cause if not, then the time would be like the time of Noah, violence filled the earth and soon then came the judgment of the flood and destruction of that world. Noah was the only one of his time that found favor with God, how about the perhaps millions of people, none, for the earth was entirely corrupted. We are not there yet. There are still many of God's people on this earth.

We still have civil governments and still have in many countries the freedom to practice our Christian faith.
People can still do good Christian works, missionary works and telling other people about Christ.

John 9
Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I[a] must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 13:11-13 - 21st Century King James Version

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awaken out of sleep; for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent; the day is at hand. Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. Let us walk honestly as in...

www.biblegateway.com

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awaken out of sleep; for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed.

12 The night is far spent; the day is at hand. Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

13 Let us walk honestly as in the day, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in lewdness and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When Jesus returns.... it is as at night, spiritual darkness over the entire world.

Luke 18:8
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?”

2 Peter 3:10
But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[IndianaRob]

Perhaps you should listen to the...as you put it..."dispensational tradition".

Eph 6 is how the restrainer works.

I’m just trying to help Crow.

 

[CrowCross]

Somewhere before 2 Thess 2:3 unless we all missed the worldwide declaration of ""and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;""

When does that happen in the timeline?
Beginning of trib? mid-trib?

My view is it occurs shortly after the rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

I’m just trying to help Crow.

How???? By insisting dispensations are foolish?

Do you know there is a dispensation between the NT and Old Testament?