Who is Right?

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bbyrd009

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hey, nothing wrong with either of those, and man, am i ever relieved, cuz all that "pick up your cross" stuff kinda had me worried, so it's great to hear that that is just figurative or optional or whatever. Prolly happens automatically, i guess. Last thing i'm tryna do is get past the Cross here. Got a verse that i can sleep on? That assures me that i am saved right now? That would help, i'm, uh, seeking that one right now, ty, cuz the last two didn't Lex out so well.
 

mjrhealth

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hey, nothing wrong with either of those, and man, am i ever relieved, cuz all that "pick up your cross" stuff kinda had me worried, so it's great to hear that that is just figurative or optional or whatever. Prolly happens automatically, i guess. Last thing i'm tryna do is get past the Cross here. Got a verse that i can sleep on? That assures me that i am saved right now? That would help, i'm, uh, seeking that one right now, ty, cuz the last two didn't Lex out so well.
And this says what???
 

bbyrd009

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mjrhealth said:
And this says what???
oh, i guess that there's a sense in which you are saved right now, sure enough, but i see a counterfeit for that, too, and so my meaning is would your best friend characterize your "salvation" as being "you made it to the Promised Land," or "you walked out of Egypt, a Free Man." The "best friend" being the "witness," being as how what comes out of our mouth when asked direct questions like that is basically useless, and i am no exception lol.
 

Heb 13:8

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bbyrd009 said:
Got a verse that i can sleep on? That assures me that i am saved right now? That would help, i'm, uh, seeking that one right now, ty, cuz the last two didn't Lex out so well.
Underline: Oh word. yea I gotchu. Its a little shelly shelly right now but you know ha it is..

1 John 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Luke 16:31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
 

Heb 13:8

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bbyrd009 said:
nice. Of course, by that standard Hitler was saved, because of course he believed too :/
Demons believe Jesus is God, but not their savior. 1st grade stuff bby.
 

Heb 13:8

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bbyrd009 said:
um demons believe Jesus is God? maybe i should go back to 1st grade lol
Yes, they believe He is God, therefore they shudder. But they have not accepted Jesus as savior, and never will.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
 

mjrhealth

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oh, i guess that there's a sense in which you are saved right now, sure enough, but i see a counterfeit for that, too, and so my meaning is would your best friend characterize your "salvation" as being "you made it to the Promised Land," or "you walked out of Egypt, a Free Man." The "best friend" being the "witness," being as how what comes out of our mouth when asked direct questions like that is basically useless, and i am no exception lol.
Got no idea what you are speaking off, the promised land, as far as i know we have yet to cross the Jordan to enter into that promised land, and what has that to do with salvation. God has done everything He needs to do, Christ was put to shame for us and died because of our sins and here I see men clailming to be christians denying His power . Oh yes many will be found wanting those who as He puits it" worship me with there lips but there hearts are far from me", but that is what relgion does,

2Ti_3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
 

bbyrd009

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mjrhealth said:
Got no idea what you are speaking off, the promised land, as far as i know we have yet to cross the Jordan to enter into that promised land, and what has that to do with salvation.
Those who say they are finished being "born again," a la "i am saved, i have been born again (even, what), i'm born again, therefore i can no longer sin (yikes), i've never been a sinner, never sinned, and i got a friend in Jesus?" i mean, please, these people must be at least compared to the Nehushtan worshippers in Kings, who are mentally and spiritually in the Promised Land, meaning "done wandering," because if you are done being born again, you are done wandering, there is nothing left to change, iow, and so it does no good to mouth that you have not crossed the Jordan yet in the appropriate places--whenever the subject comes up directly, iow--if your other "confession" indicates something different, not that i mean that this is for you, major, but for anyone who has accepted that they have, already, changed their minds, and that they are, already, as saved as they are going to get.

Both cannot be true, iow, and i suggest that many have in fact "crossed that river," on dry land, no less, and that it is really a very simple matter to compare or contrast one's basic confession, right now, today, with some point on the Exodus timeline, as long as you are unflinching in the matter, which i am not, so i found the friend who really knows you to be a valuable aid there, the "witness," one who is able to point out when you are being a hypocrite without realizing it--if they are really a friend--which who keeps friends like that these days, lol. I mean personally, i would go and cultivate a friend like that, Stranger is my best friend, lol
 

Heb 13:8

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bbyrd009 said:
Those who say they are finished being "born again," a la "i am saved, i have been born again (even, what), i'm born again, therefore i can no longer sin (yikes), i've never been a sinner, never sinned, and i got a friend in Jesus?" i mean, please, these people must be at least compared to the Nehushtan worshippers in Kings, who are mentally and spiritually in the Promised Land, meaning "done wandering," because if you are done being born again, you are done wandering, there is nothing left to change, iow, and so it does no good to mouth that you have not crossed the Jordan yet in the appropriate places--whenever the subject comes up directly, iow--if your other "confession" indicates something different, not that i mean that this is for you, major, but for anyone who has accepted that they have, already, changed their minds, and that they are, already, as saved as they are going to get.

Both cannot be true, iow, and i suggest that many have in fact "crossed that river," on dry land, no less, and that it is really a very simple matter to compare or contrast one's basic confession, right now, today, with some point on the Exodus timeline, as long as you are unflinching in the matter, which i am not, so i found the friend who really knows you to be a valuable aid there, the "witness," one who is able to point out when you are being a hypocrite without realizing it--if they are really a friend--which who keeps friends like that these days, lol. I mean personally, i would go and cultivate a friend like that, Stranger is my best friend, lol
We can only be born again once, and then the relationship with God begins, which is progressive sanctification. This lasts a lifetime.
 

bbyrd009

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well, that depends upon whether you get to define "born again" or i do, i guess. I witness a lot of church-going people who call themselves "Christian," but nonetheless exhibit no fruit of having been born anew yet, spiritually. And they have done all the right things, supposedly, met all the legal requirements that the church puts on us now, been baptized, and even re-baptized, some of them. And they're still egotistical jerks. So i don't know if they're born again or not? Is the Second Son born again? Dunno.
 

Heb 13:8

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bbyrd009 said:
well, that depends upon whether you get to define "born again" or i do, i guess. I witness a lot of church-going people who call themselves "Christian," but nonetheless exhibit no fruit of having been born anew yet, spiritually. And they have done all the right things, supposedly, met all the legal requirements that the church puts on us now, been baptized, and even re-baptized, some of them. And they're still egotistical jerks. So i don't know if they're born again or not? Is the Second Son born again? Dunno.
You're right, many are called but few are chosen. Religious vs truly born again. That's the war. The question is not what born again is per say, but how to become born again is probly more important. How do you become born again.
 

bbyrd009

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Well apparently by changing your mind. Which i guess does not mean like you changed your mind about what to have for lunch. You have to die, daily. Which is not some singular, religious act, but is different every day, some piece of your thinking that was not producing fruit should be replaced by a better idea. And this is hard, because those old things we thought and did, we did for a reason; they produced a result that suited us--or at least one of us, as we all have a spirit, a soul, and a body. We all have one on our left shoulder, and another on our right, whispering; and these are not ever going to go away, these are "free will." That third guy, "the observer" some call it, it somewhat harder to get to, i guess. We are described, repeatedly, as "2" in Scripture; "two men in a bed," or Cain and Abel, or male and female...which is of course mis-interpreted for us, into the physical, even though the Book is strictly about the spiritual. And the Book even explains why this is done, so that "seeing they will not see," which is not talking about someone else, some bad guy, it is talking about me, whenever i am mature enough to realize it.

And a lot gets made of making some declarations in a building one day, among some congregation of people, whom you have been assured are born again. And they have the vernacular, they have at least appropriated the lingo, they got sin--got a lot of that one--and confession, and repentance--even if they are maybe light on what comes after that; but they got the foundation idea down, as Book knowledge, anyway--and it is kind of up to the individual to connect that vernacular with messing up, and saying your sorry, a simple apology, and professing the will to not do that again, and being willing to make it right. It's hard because the focus on sin is often, even usually, misdirected, onto your symptoms, so you spend the next 10 to 50 years navel-gazing, listening to other people tell you that you are naked, some kind of way, you need to quit smoking or whatever, which God is of course not doing at all, God reaps what He sows, and He knows you will too.

So at this point you are fully engaged in trying to save your soul; you are completely in your Cain, plowing your own ground, firm in the belief, now, that the Cain and Abel story is about blood sacrifice, when it is not; no blood is ever mentioned there, or anywhere near there, except in connection with murder. But the tares have taken effect at this point, and you have been assured that those are just "weeds," which you have been taught to associate with other people, and assiduously trained to pull up, every chance you get; not "false wheat, mind-altering crop" that a market exists for right now, today--people buy those right now, today, for their psychoactive effect, but you would have trouble even finding this definition on google now. I've seen it get buried over the last several years, i don't think it's even on the first page anymore. "Weeds" is what you get, even from Wikipedia. Thank you for playing.

So after a year or so of that, you got yourself a pretty good definition of "born again," you think, which invariably, without fail, tells you that the congregation you stumbled into is "saved," and anyone who disagrees with any of their--now your--beliefs is "lost," and of course you believe it, Muslims can't possibly be "saved," because they do not hold their mouth right at "Jesus," and never mind all that "Any spirit that confesses that Christ has come in the flesh is from God" in your Book, or that "You must follow Christ, or be doomed" in their Book, nope, those don't count, because of course you are a Patriotic Christian, because that's the only kind, right, and you have, naturally, Pledged Allegiance to a Flag, and you saw, with your own eyes, some atrocity that some Arab guy did on tv, and you heard him say "Allahu Akbar," and never mind all that putting your eyes on the unseen, when the seen has already told you all that you need to know, and all your peers are agreeing.

Why change your mind when everyone agrees? Or at least you and all of your peers, who have definitely "left the world," at least in some fashion, but notice that you really didn't come back to earth, your inheritance, you got cloistered some kind of way, and you are like on the moon now or something, some artificial satellite, you got cut out from the herd and separated, and now you are a sheep headed for slaughter, only you don't know it, and the verses that plainly describe you, and me, we are ignorant of those, because we did not find them for ourselves, someone helped us, and the blind leading the blind cannot possibly apply either, because after all you got blessed assurance, Jesus is mine, you did all the things that got pointed out to you to do for "born again," you held your mouth right in all the right places, and got wet at just the right time, and even gurgled and cooed, so you, my friend, are in. Even got re-wet, just to be sure. Lol.

anyway, that was my path, don't know about you. Sure, you can accept Jesus with your mouth, from fear of hell, and leave Egypt a Free Man; you even get some gold, on your way out. But my advice--which is irrelevant, mostly--is that if you find your self re-laying the foundation, over and over, repeatedly talking about sin and redemption from it, sin, repentance, redemption, sin, repentance, redemption, wash, rinse, repeat, over and over, and convinced that Christ is coming back for you, and that you are waiting on Christ for something, for your "born again" life to start, all i can tell you is that you now have seven spirits that were worse than the first, which i know is a hard thing to read, and really hard to apply to yourself, i guess. I still have some, myself. And God forbid you should get the tickle, and go get a formal education on the Book; and i do mean "God forbid." I got Scrip for that if you need.

So right now, my guess is that you are born again when you can agree with a little child on some solution to some problem, or in seeing fruit in someone strange to you, that does not talk like you or look like you (after you get over yourself, of course, which even young children and dogs have to do, once they have been immersed in your domain, and are naturally suspicious). Or seeing no fruit in someone, but treating them the same way as the fruit guy, which is really hard if they also appear different. Which there is a lesson in there; if you look and sound the same as everyone around you, you would be amazed at what you can get away with; and there are those who raise this to an Art.

And you better believe that wherever you are, spiritually, you are broadcasting it to people who understand the Book--which i don't yet; i just started reading It, again--but when you talk about Rapture to someone who has stepped out into the air, and met Him already, someone who has felt the Breath (which you can do, today, it isn't a mystery, or a puzzle, you just forgot; little kids do it all the time), for example, don't doubt that your joints have been separated from your marrow, meaning that you are revealed, by your interpretation of the Book.
 

Heb 13:8

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bbyrd009 said:
Well apparently by changing your mind. Which i guess does not mean like you changed your mind about what to have for lunch. You have to die, daily.
Dying daily has nothing to do with being being born again. Being born again is a one time event. Changing of mind and heart Rom 10:9. Dying daily has to do with progressive sanctification, not initial salvation.
 

bbyrd009

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Heb 13:8 said:
Dying daily has nothing to do with being being born again. Being born again is a one time event. Changing of mind and heart Rom 10:9. Dying daily has to do with progressive sanctification, not initial salvation.
ok, well, to me dying daily is a process of changing one's mind. You didn't expound on your concept of dying daily, and i still remember my old one, which sounded good, but bore no fruit that i can recall. Iow as best i can remember, it wasn't too connected to reality, my daily walk. In fact, if anything, it served to keep me frozen, in a sense, despite the good cover story. But you might have a more productive pov there. "Progressive sanctification" is to me being born again, and it has just been separated out into a doctrine to help justify that one is saved, right now, which needed crutches to stand, in the face of he who holds out to the end will be saved. Not that i'm disagreeing with you, most of us do undergo some change of mind at the altar, some more profound than others, but the pov of "you were just scared of hell, and hoped to save your hide" must be contemplated even in those cases, i think.

So, progressive sanctification often seems to end up reinforcing a "holiness" pov, which is great if that yields more forgiveness, but usually seems to yield more pride. And the signs will be clear; increasing division and hostility (not only are the Baptists now lost, but now even the Trinny OPs across the street are, too, if one is "Oneness;" "us four and no more," and the same thing going on in those respective congregations), note even resistance to a congregant visiting another affiliated church, much more emphasis on the seen, fruit evidence doctrine distorted (we'll tell you what tastes good), longer lists of laws that must be followed, standards, shunning, many indications of Snake on a Pole worship, Rapture, etc, and the Book is the Word, always the Bible is the Word, literal interpretation of the Bible, except of course when that is not convenient, like at "Body of Christ," etc, lots of confusion on the Book at the same time, easy to put them a question from the Book that they cannot answer, when two passages are juxtaposed, so you get the standard, "you'll just have to trust me," or "you don't have the context right," or even "i don't understand the question," at the same time lots of "knowing," and "it has to be like this," and "this passage means this thing, and (at least implied, if not outright demanded) can't mean anything else," stuff like that (when any explanation should be comprehensible by a little kid), little or no corporate charity, but lots of "messages" on tithing, on and on, i could fill a page, lots of re-laying the foundation, that is virtually the only subject, sin, repent, redeemed, which of the three do you wanna talk about, hopefully sin

v

increasing acceptance, a Muslim or Native American evidencing works unto rebound (repentance) is now seen as a brother, more emphasis on the unseen (you know what tastes good, and you don't need me to tell you), ready recommendations from your pastor when asked about his pov on your visiting another congregation, a more holistic grasp of Word, less knowing, but more understanding, Book is recognized to be alive, and fluid, water, new wine, or old wine (and the old wine is better, they say) just right down the list, all of the opposites, that bring me back to "are you a Wanderer, or are you done wandering?"

Now, don't get me wrong, i can't think of a better system than the one we got, for revealing hearts, and if one has a belief in Rapture, then i doubt a little convo from some guy who lives in a van down by the river, and posts from a Wendy's, is gonna change your mind, and well it should not. I would just invite you into an unflinching inventory of whatever doctrine it might be, wherein i would steer you to an inventory of the fruit of the doctrine, be it Trinity or Rapture, or Progressive Sanctification. Or any of them. Original Sin. What a mess. That one is the worst. And the difficult part there, is that you can only understand from where you are at the time. Iow a newbie would not be able to discern the difference in my understanding of any one of these concepts v someone else's, someone a bit more fundamental, say, even if we were quite vehement in our objections to each other's povs. They are both mostly irrelevant, iow, or at least any person can come up with ready reasons to invalidate either pov, with Scripture seemingly backing them up, even.

We seek "Truth," but what we get is "here a little, there a little." We desire hard facts, proof, but Truth does not work like that. There is no Absolute Truth, that anyone can Witness from Scripture. I challenge anyone to present one. One single, absolute truth, from the Book, that i cannot refute from the Book. It hasn't been done yet, going on 20 years, despite plenty of people insisting on some absolute, objective truth.

Because after all, the future is going to be different from today; a lot different. The Book literally lures us into eschatology, at the same time It cautions against prognosticating and divining, and insists that one keep their head in "today." The tomorrow is seemingly played up, and i can only think of one verse that tells us "sufficient for the day is the trouble therein," although i'm sure i could find a Witness. But my guess is that verse has only lived as long as it has in the English because it mentions trouble, lol. And no one connects "Understand I AM" with that (which is not "Understand I Am," completely different topic). And the Godhead is more confusing after one learns about It, than It was before. And meeting Him in the air sure sounds like a literal event, to a literal reader, unaware that they are "seeing they will not see," or iow possibly taking a passage in a Book about the spiritual--all God cares about--a bit too literally, which is all just another area of confusion--what to take literally and what to take spiritually--until the confusion resolves itself, anyway.

Take It all literally, and then take It all spiritually, imo...And no one, after drinking old wine, wants new, because he says, The old is better.
(has no direct Witness though, hmm. This is an indication of a rabbit-hole, imo, a "Jesus' carcass" thing, that reveals more the deeper you go. Of course we have Jesus at the Wedding, the comments about the wine there, "they say..." @ His "first miracle," but i've rambled on enough, i guess.

i'd let the Spirit tell you what dying daily means, personally.
 

Heb 13:8

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bbyrd009 said:
We seek "Truth," but what we get is "here a little, there a little." We desire hard facts, proof, but Truth does not work like that. There is no Absolute Truth, that anyone can Witness from Scripture. I challenge anyone to present one. One single, absolute truth, from the Book, that i cannot refute from the Book. It hasn't been done yet, going on 20 years, despite plenty of people insisting on some absolute, objective truth.
Jesus Christ is the truth, His life, burial and resurrection. John 14:6. It's hard to believe isn't it bby..
 

bbyrd009

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Heb 13:8 said:
Jesus Christ is the truth, His life, burial and resurrection. John 14:6. It's hard to believe isn't it bby..
not at all. What seems to be the hard part is understanding that Christ is a Spirit, and is therefore manifested spiritually, and that one cannot accept Christ with their mouth, reassuring verses that suggest otherwise notwithstanding, as could be easily explained to a little child, at least until they have gotten scribed. You can gather together in His Name, 2 or 3--which obviously is not describing a congregation--and Christ will be there, in Spirit, because one of you just stopped to help a stranger in need or whatever, and the third guy walked up at the opportune moment, maybe, when you were stuck, or whatever, and the words "Jesus Christ" need never be uttered, for Christ to be openly confessed there.

Another thing that i see is hard to believe--well, goes literally unremarked, might be a better way to put it--is that Jesus can be worshipped like a Snake on a Pole, and again, there is support for this pov Scripturally, should one accept it, and more power to them if they do. I have no desire to pull on anyone's beliefs in that area. Don't find love until you are ready. But just don't kid yourself, reader, there is a way to worship "Jesus" like a Snake on a Pole, and the general concept will out as adherents who feel snakebit, and are looking up, to the sky perhaps, for relief from their...current situation, we'll say, whatever that may be, and there are many signs, a general belief and even confession that "yesterday was better than today," etc, many other signs, and then there is another layer, and the lesson of Nehushtan can either be perceived, or not perceived, seen, or not seen, so see what you will see. There is a counterfeit for everything.
 
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