Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

[Phoneman777]

How is using the word of God and Hebrew translation convoluted?


Show me in scripture where it says the restrainer is the Roman Empire.

OK, but first would you please attempt to offer a reasonable explanation to my question about Paul's uncharacteristic failure to proclaim what you claim is the power of God holding back the Antichrist?

 

[Phoneman777]

All the pieces of the puzzle fit when you apply Prewrath rapture. Michael has been Israel's protector for quite some time now...

Why do you continue to offer explanations as to why you think Michael is the Restrainer as an answer to my question of why Paul was so uncharacteristically silent about what you believe is the power of God responsible for holding back the rise of Antichrist?

 

[Phoneman777]

It really makes no sense to say that the Roman Empire, which destroyed the city and the sanctuary, and from whom the anti-Christ originates - who as the King of the North, would occupy Europe which lies in the northern half of the Northern Hemisphere - is restraining its leader!

Rome is the spiritual enemy of God - it is the last Kingdom on earth which will be destroyed when Christ Jesus, the "rock cut out of the mountain without hands" (that is by God), smashes it to bits in establishing His Millennial Reign here on earth.

No, what makes no sense is why Paul - a man who not once ever failed to fearlessly proclaim the power of God to rulers and kings - was so reluctant to shout from the rooftop via his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians that the power of God was holding back the rise of Antichrist.

What makes perfect sense is that Paul told the early church exactly what the ECF unanimously believed, taught, and recorded for posterity - that the Roman Empire was the Restrainer- and only a man with a death wish for himself and his friends would in ancient times speak or write in a letter about the fall of an Empire, lest it should fall into the hands of Roman authorities who would immediately conclude that the early church was a movement to overthrow the Caesars. After the Roman Empire was "taken out of the way" by its own demise, the Papal Antichrist arose right on time.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

No, what makes no sense is why Paul - a man who not once ever failed to fearlessly proclaim the power of God to rulers and kings - was so reluctant to shout from the rooftop via his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians that the power of God was holding back the rise of Antichrist.

Don't put words in peoples' mouths.

Paul didn't talk about eschatology because it confused people.

He was dealing with people that did not have a good grasp of Scripture to begin with, and teaching them about the end-times was not what they needed. They needed the basics. They needed to be fed milk because they were infants in Christ. Eschatology is real meat, and not for everyone.

I suggest you drink milk too.

 

[ATP]

OK, but first would you please attempt to offer a reasonable explanation to my question about Paul's uncharacteristic failure to proclaim what you claim is the power of God holding back the Antichrist?

Why is it a mystery to begin with? I don't know. Maybe God wanted us to figure it out for ourselves. For example, why is Michael found in Dan 12:1 NIV and Rev 12:7 NIV? Are these two scriptures not placed in the middle of the future 70th week?

Why do you continue to offer explanations as to why you think Michael is the Restrainer as an answer to my question of why Paul was so uncharacteristically silent about what you believe is the power of God responsible for holding back the rise of Antichrist?

Because it makes sense. God restrains Michael in the middle of the 70th week so He can send those who do not believe the truth a powerful delusion. Also, the word "amad" in Dan 12:1 NIV means to "stand still" etc. It doesn't take an expert to do the math. He sends nonbelievers a delusion because of wickedness. If God didn't restrain Michael and send a delusion then He wouldn't uphold His name as "the righteous one"...

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Acts 3:13-15 NIV The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

....with Michael out of the way to start off the great tribulation, the suffering and persecution will increase terribly.

What makes perfect sense is that Paul told the early church exactly what the ECF unanimously believed, taught, and recorded for posterity - that the Roman Empire was the Restrainer- and only a man with a death wish for himself and his friends would in ancient times speak or write in a letter about the fall of an Empire, lest it should fall into the hands of Roman authorities who would immediately conclude that the early church was a movement to overthrow the Caesars. After the Roman Empire was "taken out of the way" by its own demise, the Papal Antichrist arose right on time.

Phone I ask again. Where do you see the Roman Empire as the restrainer and ally of God in scripture. I'm genuinely curious. What passage are you looking at? Why are you asking me why Paul failed to tell us who the restrainer is if you already know??

The Revived Roman Empire of Daniel 2 & 7 Turns Against Israel...
http://prophecyupdate.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-revived-roman-empire-of-daniel-2-7.html

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

When the Roman Empire fell, the Papal Antichrist arose as the "man of sin" of Paul's letter.

Pinning the tail of the anti-Christ onto the Pope is historist view of the book of Revelation. It is not quite an eschatology as much as it is an internet sensation. Congratulations - you're finally espousing historist theories.

Unfortunately for you, you're also peddling Preterism - which, like historism, doesn't match between prophecy and history.

While the the Roman Catholic Church through papal edicts over time, changed the Law, removing the Second Commandment and splitting the Tenth -
And while the Roman Catholic Church instituted the idea of Sunday as the Sabbath (sorry, it never changed, and that's why Saturday is the last day of the week on our calendars) -
- trying to blame various Popes for what the anti-Christ does fails for being the desolator of Daniel 9:27.

Now, I am no fan of the Roman Catholic Church.
- They have instituted idol worship, literally praying to man-made statues;
- They have elevated a mortal woman to god-like status;
- They persecuted Saints through the ages
- They rode the beast of Europe, picking Kings and playing politics
But the Pope is not the anti-Christ. I don't think Prince Charles is either... The anti-Christ simply hasn't been revealed yet.

Like we can't really know who the "one" was who restrains him.

And some people just can't seem to deal with uncertainty.

 

[Phoneman777]

Pinning the tail of the anti-Christ onto the Pope is historist view of the book of Revelation. It is not quite an eschatology as much as it is an internet sensation. Congratulations - you're finally espousing historist theories.

Unfortunately for you, you're also peddling Preterism - which, like historism, doesn't match between prophecy and history.

While the the Roman Catholic Church through papal edicts over time, changed the Law, removing the Second Commandment and splitting the Tenth -
And while the Roman Catholic Church instituted the idea of Sunday as the Sabbath (sorry, it never changed, and that's why Saturday is the last day of the week on our calendars) -
- trying to blame various Popes for what the anti-Christ does fails for being the desolator of Daniel 9:27.

Now, I am no fan of the Roman Catholic Church.
- They have instituted idol worship, literally praying to man-made statues;
- They have elevated a mortal woman to god-like status;
- They persecuted Saints through the ages
- They rode the beast of Europe, picking Kings and playing politics
But the Pope is not the anti-Christ. I don't think Prince Charles is either... The anti-Christ simply hasn't been revealed yet.

Like we can't really know who the "one" was who restrains him.

And some people just can't seem to deal with uncertainty.

I've ALWAYS expounded Historicism, you've just not been taking the time to see it. And I've never advocated Jesuit Preterism or Jesuit Futurism. Also, I've never claimed the "Pope" is the Antichrist - that's not Historicism. The entire PAPAL SYSTEM is the Antichrist and its identity is not limited to just the man at the head of that system.

Regarding the Restrainer, though you insist its identity is impossible to ascertain, why do you readily accept that the Restrainer is some Agent of Holiness when the man who never passed up a chance to proclaim the might and power of God before kings, rulers, and tyrants suddenly decides to withhold from the early church and those who would be thereafter what he told the Thessalonians: the sublime encouragement to them and us that though we are as lambs brought to the slaughter and killed all day long, God through His holy agent has His celestial boot firmly on the neck of Antichrist?

 

[Phoneman777]

Why is it a mystery to begin with? I don't know. Maybe God wanted us to figure it out for ourselves. For example, why is Michael found in Dan 12:1 NIV and Rev 12:7 NIV? Are these two scriptures not placed in the middle of the future 70th week?

How can you say "Maybe He wanted us to figure it out for ourselves" when HE ALREADY REVEALED ITS IDENTITY TO THE THESSALONIANS? Do you even understand that Paul plainly says he told the hundreds or even thousands of Thessalonians believers the identity of the Restrainer when he had previously visited them? (2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 KJV)

No, ATP, God doesn't expect us to figure out anything that He's ALREADY revealed to His church. It is up to us to accept what He has already revealed, which the ECF unanimously declare: the Restrainer was Pagan Rome. You and Jesuit Futurists like yourself have rejected what God told the early church because it doesn't fit your Jesuit ideas. It makes perfect sense to any Protestant Historicist that the reason Paul kept his mouth shut in the letter was to protect the church from the same Pagan Roman Empire that he previously told them would fall out of the way and allow for the rise of Antichrist. And the Papal Antichrist immediately arose when Pagan Rome was taken out of the way by its dissolution.

 

[ATP]

How can you say "Maybe He wanted us to figure it out for ourselves" when HE ALREADY REVEALED ITS IDENTITY TO THE THESSALONIANS? Do you even understand that Paul plainly says he told the hundreds or even thousands of Thessalonians believers the identity of the Restrainer when he had previously visited them? (2 Thessalonians 2:5-7 KJV)

No, ATP, God doesn't expect us to figure out anything that He's ALREADY revealed to His church. It is up to us to accept what He has already revealed, which the ECF unanimously declare: the Restrainer was Pagan Rome. You and Jesuit Futurists like yourself have rejected what God told the early church because it doesn't fit your Jesuit ideas. It makes perfect sense to any Protestant Historicist that the reason Paul kept his mouth shut in the letter was to protect the church from the same Pagan Roman Empire that he previously told them would fall out of the way and allow for the rise of Antichrist. And the Papal Antichrist immediately arose when Pagan Rome was taken out of the way by its dissolution.

and yet, no scripture to prove your silly theories. Only cult websites.

 

[ATP]

Historicism is false. The 70th week is future.

 

[ATP]

Phone, you leave out a lot of scripture and ignore them. How am I suppose to take you seriously.

 

[Phoneman777]

and yet, no scripture to prove your silly theories. Only cult websites.

Hello? Paul told the Early Church who the Restrainer was and the Early Church tells us that he spoke of Pagan Rome. The only deficiency in proof is what YOU claim, ATP. I marvel how a person who hasn't one shred of evidence to place in the scale (except for wholly subjective interpretation of Bible verses) scoffs at the weight of another's evidence.

 

[ATP]

Hello? Paul told the Early Church who the Restrainer was and the Early Church tells us that he spoke of Pagan Rome. The only deficiency in proof is what YOU claim, ATP. I marvel how a person who hasn't one shred of evidence to place in the scale (except for wholly subjective interpretation of Bible verses) scoffs at the weight of another's evidence.

If Rome was pagan then they would have to be an enemy of God.
The restrainer has to be an ally of God. Otherwise, what is he restraining?
If Pagan Rome was already sinful, then how are they restraining sin?
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 mentions a “restrainer” that is holding back sin and lawlessness.

 

[Phoneman777]

If Rome was pagan then they would have to be an enemy of God.
The restrainer has to be an ally of God. Otherwise, what is he restraining?
If Pagan Rome was already sinful, then how are they restraining sin?
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 mentions a “restrainer” that is holding back sin and lawlessness.

He "has to be an ally of God" is the most subjective statement I've seen about the Restrainer. Did the fallen angel who volunteered to be Ahab's "lying spirit" become His ally? (Loyal angels "do His commandments" which excludes lying - Psalms 103:20 KJV).

Did the Babylonians become His ally when He used them to judge Israel? The Philistines? Any other of His enemies used for the same purpose?

You are assigning virtue to the Restrainer that the Bible does not assign, and as long as you continue to read the Bible with that level of subjectivity, you will never discover prophetic truth. The text simply says that the Restrainer restrains the rise of Antichrist until he is taken out of the way and when Pagan Rome fell, the PAPAL ROMAN ANTICHRIST arose.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phone, you leave out a lot of scripture and ignore them. How am I suppose to take you seriously.

I don't ignore anything, ATP. I'm well aware of the verses used by Jesuit Futurists to "prove" their theory. They are as laughable now as they were when the Protestant Reformers - men who were prepared to die horrible deaths for the truth - rejected them FOR OVER 300 YEARS. If someone accused me of following Jesuit ideas, I'd be mad as heck and well motivated to prove them wrong. The fact that you still expound Futurism only serves to prove that you don't care that you are following it or that you choose to remain ignorant of what is an irrefutable matter of history.

 

[brakelite]

I wrote this some time ago, a month before the pope presented himself before congress. This will go a long way in explaining why Phoneman and myself see the papacy the way we do. Not only is our belief sound Biblically, but is also completely in harmony with prophecy, current events, and history. It will take a great deal more than Jesuit inspired propaganda and lies to convince us otherwise.

https://brakelite.wordpress.com/2015/09/12/the-leopard-stirs/#more-1088

 

[ATP]

He "has to be an ally of God" is the most subjective statement I've seen about the Restrainer.

Uh no. If you focus on the main topic at hand in regards to the restrainer,
we can clearly see the restrainer is holding back sin and lawlessness.
The secret power of lawlessness and the one who now holds in back are two different spirits.
Notice the "but" in the following.
Why does the devil need to be taken out of the way if he is already at work?

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Did the fallen angel who volunteered to be Ahab's "lying spirit" become His ally? (Loyal angels "do His commandments" which excludes lying - Psalms 103:20 KJV).

Fallen angels come from the devil Phone.

2 Pet 2:4 NIV For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Jude 1:6 NIV And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Did the Babylonians become His ally when He used them to judge Israel? The Philistines? Any other of His enemies used for the same purpose?

God uses nonbelievers for all kinds of purposes. Rom 9:19-24 NIV. That doesn't turn them into believers and holy saints in one day. The reason for the restraint is so that the Antichrist will be revealed at God’s appointed time, the abomination of desolation in the middle of the 70th week.

So why would evil restrain evil from being revealed? That makes no sense whatsoever. I would think the antichrist spirit wants to deceive the saints into thinking he will never appear on the scene as a man. What do you think Phone7?

You are assigning virtue to the Restrainer that the Bible does not assign, and as long as you continue to read the Bible with that level of subjectivity, you will never discover prophetic truth. The text simply says that the Restrainer restrains the rise of Antichrist until he is taken out of the way and when Pagan Rome fell, the PAPAL ROMAN ANTICHRIST arose.

Right, evil is restraining evil from appearing in the world? Do you read the newspaper Phone or watch the news?

 

[ATP]

I wrote this some time ago, a month before the pope presented himself before congress. This will go a long way in explaining why Phoneman and myself see the papacy the way we do. Not only is our belief sound Biblically, but is also completely in harmony with prophecy, current events, and history. It will take a great deal more than Jesuit inspired propaganda and lies to convince us otherwise.

https://brakelite.wordpress.com/2015/09/12/the-leopard-stirs/#more-1088

The Pope could very well be the future Antichrist man who sits in the third temple,

but our brother Phone here doesn't believe in a future 70th week and an antichrist man so.....

 

[brakelite]

The Pope could very well be the future Antichrist man who sits in the third temple,

but our brother Phone here doesn't believe in a future 70th week and an antichrist man so.....

I agree with Phoneman. The 'beast' of Revelation 13:1 is recognized by all Bible scholars as being the Antichrist. At least, those Bible scholars I know of and have read of. I have never read any alternative understanding, or an interpretation that renders the 'Antichrist' ID obsolete. Also, the 'little horn ' of Daniel 7:8 is the 'baby' version of the Revel.13:1 beast. The beast, is the little horn all grown up, so to speak.
The thing is, the 4 beasts of Daniel 7, and in particular the 4th beast from which the horn grows, are all empires. They are nations, predatory nations, who annex other nations to form the empire. So to be Biblically and prophetically consistent, (because God is consistent) the beast of Revelation 13...aka Antichrist...must also be a predatory nation forming an empire. Which is precisely what the RCC is. The fact that this nation has a spokesman (eyes of a man [of sin] speaking great things etc) is also consistent with the other beasts all of which were represented by their various kings...Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, etc.
ATP, the prophecy specifically declares that the Antichrist shall sit in the temple of God. No 'third temple', however grandiose and 'annointed ' and hailed as prophetic etc etc, will never , ever, nor could ever be in a zillion years, be deemed to be "of God". When the prophecy was written, there were 4 temples. One in heaven, one in Jerusalem, the individual believer, and the church. The one in heaven is off limits to the Antichrist. The one in Jerusalem is now destroyed, and any new one will never be God's temple. That leaves the individual or the church. One may personally allow Antichrist into his life and allow him to proclaim his deity there, but somehow this doesn't seem to be what God intended by the prophecy. But the church, that is another kettle of fish. Could the RCC/papacy stand in the Christian church and claim to be God on earth and claim to be the only Mediator between God and man and claim to forgive sin and claim....oh look ATP...this is precisely what the RCC is doing!
As to the 70th week. You know something ATP, Revelation 13, and Jesus in the gospels, warned repeatedly that the end times would be a time of deception. You know this I am sure. Remember, false Christs, false prophets...deception. So what do we have today? By far the most popular theory regarding the Antichrist is that which you espouse. I mean seriously, there have been untold book series, single tomes, movies, magazines, all with the same theme with perhaps a few slight variations. A future Antichrist coming onto the scene making a peace treaty with Israel, persecuting the church, inflicting people with a mark/RIFD/tatoo...whatever. The thing is ATP, when and if this character does appear, where on earth will be the deception when every Tom, Dick, Harry, and Gertrude will recognize him the moment he steps in front of the TV and run like crazy in the opposite direction? Doesn't it make far more sense for an entity to be already in power, the vast majority of the world already 'wondering after him', those that used to be his enemies now convinced he is a friend, all the kings and queens and presidents and prime ministers of the world grovelling at his feet, all being totally and completely deceived as to the true nature of this 'beast' they are worshiping? Oh look ATP,that is precisely what the kings and queens of the world are doing with the RCC!!! (Not to mention her former enemies the Protestants!!!!!!) And apart from only a handful of people, (3 in total as far as I am aware in this forum out of all its current members) , in the world are even mildly interested in voicing any doubts or misgivings concerning the current infatuation with the RCC. and its leader's lust for global power. HOW BLIND ARE YOU???

 

[brakelite]

The Pope could very well be the future Antichrist man who sits in the third temple,

but our brother Phone here doesn't believe in a future 70th week and an antichrist man so.....

By your response to my post I gather you didn't read my article very thoroughly ATP. Not that I would want to force you to read it or anything like that...I just thought it gives a fairly good explanation as to why we believe as we do. What we are writing about isn't that far "out there" when you consider it logically and reasonably...with eyes and ears open and biases restrained.