Who Is The "Root" We're Grafted Into?

[Enoch111]

But we shouldn't use that symbolism today, because the Gentile nations have their own nations of faith, and unbelievers from pagan nations can be grafted onto them, as well.

You cannot arbitrarily make such changes. Gentiles are always grafted into the "good olive tree" of believing Israel. That is how God sees it.

 

[Brakelite]

That's what happens when people go off on tangents.

Are they another grafted version of tangerines?

 

[Earburner]

Yes, and Cyrus sent the Jews back to Jerusalem, so what? Solomon, I think it was, wrote that God makes the wicked rich to take their wealth and give it to whom He wants.
Much love!

My point is that God was done with the Jews and their Religion about Him. For years God had been preparing them for the KoG that was to come through His Son.
Unfortunately, except for the faithful few, all the majority cared about was their own religious ways. That "determination" of God is found in Daniel 9:24, known as the 70 weeks. It is all about God's six (6) Works of His Grace through His Son, of what He willed to do for all people.

As a result of the Jews rejecting the Son, the "house" of Israel was made to be "desolate", being made void of the Spirit of God. In God's eyes, Israel as a nation was never going to be blessed again by His Presence. In fact Jesus put it this way to them: Luke 13[35] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you [Jews], Ye shall not see [percieve] me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So therefore, the KoG who is Jesus Himself, was taken from them and given to another "nation". And NO, Jesus was not given to the visible churches, but rather to the Born Again Christians, who have asked for and did recieve His Holy Spirit. Luke 11:13, Romans 8:8-9.
1 Peter 2[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Q. So then, who or what is that nation today, that calls itself "Israel", by the riches and power of the Rothchild family, and not by God?
A. It is "the mother of harlots", made to artificially stand by the will of men, under the guidance of Zionism.

 

[Curtis]

Sorry, I don't agree. Israel was just the 1st of many nations God planned to give Abraham. He first planned to give him his own biological nation, Israel. And then He planned to expand nations of faith around the world, which is, of course, the many Christian nations that have evolved since.

The fact all of these nations of faith have fallen onto hard times does not mean God failed. He can restore all of them, and I believe He will.

The Covenant God made with Abraham was processed through the Old Covenant of Law as a way of preparing for expansion to many nations. When Christ came it was time for this expansion into all the world, to include "many nations."

So the covenants positively involved nations--not just Israel. It began with Israel, but the endgame was the nations of the world.

Initially, Gentiles were grafted onto the tree of Israel because at that time only Israel existed. The only people of faith were a small remnant of Jews who belonged to the fading Jewish nation. But we shouldn't use that symbolism today, because the Gentile nations have their own nations of faith, and unbelievers from pagan nations can be grafted onto them, as well.

Except that’s not so.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Christ didn't have to become a "new creature." We become a new creature in Him.

I’ve struggled with this because I’m not sure if I agree or disagree. I get you don’t favor my use of many verses but these are the ones I think of in considering: “Christ didn’t have to become “a new creature”

He didn’t have to …”in no man takes my life from me but I lay it down”…
he didn’t have to become but ...
It became Him in bringing in His brethren…
It became Him, to become the firstborn among many brethren.
…For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

1 Corinthians 15:45: So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


Became a life giving (quickening) Spirit.

Colossians 2:11-13 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Philippians 2:7-8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 2:9-11 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
^are all of one …question “put on the New Man” looking up on the internet (right or wrong) the word “grafted” into “all of one” came up, ‘grafted’ into Christ; as in until all come in to unity and full stature of the body Christ with Him as the Head of the New Man? The body in subjection to the leadership, movement and direction of the Head which is Christ.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, (made a life giving, quickening Spirit) he became the author of (Life) eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Point is, you said he didn’t have to become a new man…it is us who have to become? Yea? But the above seems to say He didn’t have to become but that …He became so that others could partake of (the richness of the root? Romans 11:17, Luke 12:21, Ephesians 2:4-7), He became so others could partake of His Holiness which is God the Father and the Son are One? “I am in you and you in Me”?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

he came not to be ministered unto, but to minister?

love doesn’t seek its own but that of another?

“he came not to be ministered unto, but to minister”

Mark 10:43-45 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: [44] And whosoever of you will be the chiefest(consider Paul’s chief of all sinners), shall be servant of all.
1 Corinthians 9:18-19 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Not to be ministered unto,
But to minister
Colossians 1:23-28 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [24] Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: [25] Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; [26] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: [27] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: [28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 2 Corinthians 11:2-7

 

[Hidden In Him]

I’ve struggled with this because I’m not sure if I agree or disagree. I get you don’t favor my use of many verses but these are the ones I think of in considering: “Christ didn’t have to become “a new creature”

He didn’t have to …”in no man takes my life from me but I lay it down”…
he didn’t have to become but ...
It became Him in bringing in His brethren…
It became Him, to become the firstborn among many brethren.
…For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

1 Corinthians 15:45: So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


Became a life giving (quickening) Spirit.

Colossians 2:11-13 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Philippians 2:7-8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 2:9-11 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
^are all of one …question “put on the New Man” looking up on the internet (right or wrong) the word “grafted” into “all of one” came up, ‘grafted’ into Christ; as in until all come in to unity and full stature of the body Christ with Him as the Head of the New Man? The body in subjection to the leadership, movement and direction of the Head which is Christ.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, (made a life giving, quickening Spirit) he became the author of (Life) eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Point is, you said he didn’t have to become a new man…it is us who have to become? Yea? But the above seems to say He didn’t have to become but that …He became so that others could partake of (the richness of the root? Romans 11:17, Luke 12:21, Ephesians 2:4-7), He became so others could partake of His Holiness which is God the Father and the Son are One? “I am in you and you in Me”?

In becoming these things, He Himself did not become "a new creation," Victory. That phrase is used specifically in reference to believers born of the Spirit from above. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new!"

 

[Earburner]

I’ve struggled with this because I’m not sure if I agree or disagree. I get you don’t favor my use of many verses but these are the ones I think of in considering: “Christ didn’t have to become “a new creature”

He didn’t have to …”in no man takes my life from me but I lay it down”…
he didn’t have to become but ...
It became Him in bringing in His brethren…
It became Him, to become the firstborn among many brethren.
…For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

1 Corinthians 15:45: So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.


Became a life giving (quickening) Spirit.

Colossians 2:11-13 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Philippians 2:7-8 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 2:9-11 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [10] For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [11] For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
^are all of one …question “put on the New Man” looking up on the internet (right or wrong) the word “grafted” into “all of one” came up, ‘grafted’ into Christ; as in until all come in to unity and full stature of the body Christ with Him as the Head of the New Man? The body in subjection to the leadership, movement and direction of the Head which is Christ.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; [9] And being made perfect, (made a life giving, quickening Spirit) he became the author of (Life) eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Point is, you said he didn’t have to become a new man…it is us who have to become? Yea? But the above seems to say He didn’t have to become but that …He became so that others could partake of (the richness of the root? Romans 11:17, Luke 12:21, Ephesians 2:4-7), He became so others could partake of His Holiness which is God the Father and the Son are One? “I am in you and you in Me”?

In brief, Jesus was born/became mortal flesh as we are, but without sin. Therefore his flesh literally died. However, He being not of this earth but rather from Heaven, the Spirit of God within Him enabled Him to be Resurrected from death into NEW Life, and be "restored" to the Glory that He once had with the Father.

In every way, Jesus became the First NEW creature (creation), being the Firstborn of many brethren, who AFTER Him through faith, have also become NEW creatures through the NEW birth of being born again by the Spirit of God/Jesus. John 3:3-8.
He has shown "the way", and now we must "follow" Him in the path of HIS resurrection, for without Him, we can do nothing.
That is why He said: "Ye must be born again". "Following" Him in that manner, IS THE requirement, and nothing short of it will be acceptable to God the Father.
Romans 8:9

 

[marks]

Precisely. Those mandarins became tangearines.

No, actually, they stay small, thin skinned, with lots of seeds, sweet and juicy, while the tangerines stay larger, thicker peel, looser, fewer seeds. No, they stay distinct from each other.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's what happens when people go off on tangents.

Tangents. Like Tangerines . . .

 

[marks]

Q. So then, who or what is that nation today, that calls itself "Israel", by the riches and power of the Rothchild family, and not by God?
A. It is "the mother of harlots", made to artificially stand by the will of men, under the guidance of Zionism.

You think God isn't in the restoration of Israel? I do.

He's going to save them yet. Evil wicked disgusting people, saved, just like this evil, wicked, disgusting man whom God saved.

Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

You think God isn't in the restoration of Israel? I do.

He's going to save them yet. Evil wicked disgusting people, saved, just like this evil, wicked, disgusting man whom God saved.

Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

Much love!

Then according to your thinking, all the Gentiles will be saved in unbelief just as you hope for the Jews. Such a doctrine as you promote, gives the Gentiles argument against God the Father as being unjust, seeing that He has declared all to be under sin and eternal death, and are condemned already. John 3:18.

Don't you yet know who "all of Israel" is?
It is "the Israel God", which is by faith, and not that of works, such as willful Law Keeping. The Righteousness of God is gifted/recieved only by faith.

Anyone who believes that keeping the Law is equal to or better than "the Righteousness of God", Christ Jesus Himself, is subject to hearing the words: "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity,
I never knew you".
See also Romans 8:8-9 of what is required for our redemption.

 

[marks]

Then according to your thinking, all the Gentiles will be saved in unbelief just as you hope for the Jews.

No, that's not so. No one is saved in unbelief. But everyone is an unbeliever until they are a believer.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Anyone who believes that keeping the Law is equal to or better than "the Righteousness of God",

Where are you getting this from? Not me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Don't you yet know who "all of Israel" is?

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun come up today?

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

^ Luke 11:13 also

 

[Earburner]

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Did the sun come up today?

Much love!

Correct, but only to this degree: Jesus didn't come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it.
You, I or any Jew could not and cannot do that. But Jesus DID! Therefore ONLY HE has obtained "the Righteousness of God".
As a result, ALL must come to Him by faith in order to recieve God's free Gift of HIS Righteousness, which is HIGHER than the righteousness of the Law, or any good works of the flesh that are apart from Christ!

Correct me if I am wrong, but most Jews, apart from a remnant who come to God through Jesus, STILL reject their only Messiah vehemently. All of such are equal to the unsaved Gentiles.

If unrepentand, unsaved Jews will be saved WITHOUT faith in Christ, then you are saying that shall be the same for all the Gentiles.

 

[Earburner]

Where are you getting this from? Not me.

Much love!

If you are promoting that all of physical Israel shall be saved without faith in Christ, then yes I am getting it from you.

 

[marks]

If you are promoting that all of physical Israel shall be saved without faith in Christ, then yes I am getting it from you.

Well I'm not. They will receive Him their Messiah.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Correct, but only to this degree: Jesus didn't come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it.
You, I or any Jew could not and cannot do that. But Jesus DID! Therefore ONLY HE has obtained "the Righteousness of God".
As a result, ALL must come to Him by faith in order to recieve God's free Gift of HIS Righteousness, which is HIGHER than the righteousness of the Law, or any good works of the flesh that are apart from Christ!

Correct me if I am wrong, but most Jews, apart from a remnant who come to God through Jesus, STILL reject their only Messiah vehemently. All of such are equal to the unsaved Gentiles.

If unrepentand, unsaved Jews will be saved WITHOUT faith in Christ, then you are saying that shall be the same for all the Gentiles.

So the sun did come up today, and therefore Israel, the seed of Israel, remains a nation before God.

Unregenerate Gentile nations were not chosen by God, while Unregenerate Isreal was.

Much love!