Is it your expectation that when the messiah comes he will instantly fulfill all messianic prophecies?
Who is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53?
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Is it your expectation that when the messiah comes he will instantly fulfill all messianic prophecies?
It is a big deal in Rabbinic literature. If what you say about it not being a big deal in Judaism is true, why has Judaism turned away from those rabbinical writings on the subject?
Bs"d
Yes.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
You’re familiar with the New Testament. As recorded in the NT, the subject of the messiah was a very big deal in the history of Judaism in the 1st century of the Common Era.
If it is true that ”the whole messiah subject is not important, it is no big deal in Judaism”, why has that happened? Why has Judaism moved from the subject being important to the subject being not important?
Thanks. With all of the prophecies about the messiah contained in the Hebrew Bible, instant fulfillment doesn’t sound plausible. “In those days” sounds like a period of time.
You don’t believe Isaiah 53 is speaking about the messiah. I’ve spoken with Jews who do, and I know that you’ve read the writings of Jews who did. It would be going too far to say that there have never been any Jews who believed Isaiah 53 is about the messiah.
Setting Isaiah 53 aside for a moment, are we able to agree that messiah will be a male Jewish person?
Bs"d
I don't think it was ever important. Christianity is all focused on the messiah, as the name implies.
Judaism is about God and His laws.
Bs"d
It is very obvious when you read the plain text of Isaiah 53, that it does not speak about the messiah, but about Israel.
For the finer details look here: Isaiah 53
Yes.
So would you say then that the accounts written in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are about an event in the history of Judaism that never happened?
Do you believe Christianity began as a sect of Judaism?
As you know, not all Jews believe that to be the case.
So we are able to agree in general then that the messiah will be a male Jewish person, not Israel.
Bs"d
No, I'm not saying that. The whole JC thing might have happened. I'm just saying that the whole messiah thing was never a big deal in Judaism.
No, the Jews never accepted him as the messiah, with maybe a handful exceptions. It were the non-Jews who started Christianity.
Also the teachings of Christianity cannot be called Jewish. Paul throws the whole law overboard, very un-Jewish. The whole "believe and you will be saved" doctrine has no basis in Judaism.
Bs"d
Only a very small minority of messianic Jews will believe that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Yes.
If it was an actual event in the history of Judaism then the Jewish religious authorities took it very seriously.
It is the handful, the exception, that I’m speaking about.
Christianity was started by Jews, not non-Jews. The earliest Christian were Jews, not non-Jews.
The NT describes the later expansion of Christianity by taking the gospel which was with Jews - the exception you mentioned - to Jews and non-Jews.
Jesus is Jewish. Christianity is grounded in his teaching.*
* I’ve posted documentation elsewhere demonstrating that not all Christians believe this.
Paul is more complex than you’re allowing. He speaks very highly of the law.
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So there are some Jews who believe Isaiah 53 is about the messiah.
I’m glad to hear that. I’ve spoken with Jews who don’t.
Judaism is fractured, just as Christianity is.
Bs"d
Since there are millions of Jews, you can find Jews who believe about everything.
The vast body of religious Jews believe all the same. There are some fringe groups, but that you'll find everywhere.
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