Who is the Whore of babylon

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gadar perets

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WRONG.

What YOU need to understand about the Gospels is the following hermerneutical rule:
When Jesus instructed the CROWDS - He was teaching ALL people
When He instructed his inner circle only - He was instructing the LEADERS of His Church.

Those "seventy" disciples in Luke 10 were the first BISHOPS of the Church as we read in the writings of the 2nd century theologian and historian Hippolytus.
Among them were Matthias, who replaced Judas, Annanias, who baptized Paul and Mark the Evangelist.
You missed my point. Judas was among the leaders. Since he no longer spoke the words of Yeshua and no longer followed his teachings, he was to be rejected. The RCC leadership has strayed from the teachings of Yeshua. They need not be heard or obeyed, but rejected.
 

BreadOfLife

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You missed my point. Judas was among the leaders. Since he no longer spoke the words of Yeshua and no longer followed his teachings, he was to be rejected. The RCC leadership has strayed from the teachings of Yeshua. They need not be heard or obeyed, but rejected.
This ia patently false.

Individuals may have strayed - but the teachings of His Church never did.
As for individuals - Jesus warned that "wolves" would arise from His flock. He said to watch out for THEM. He NEVER said to abandon His Church BECAUSE if them.
 
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CoreIssue

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No - you'd probably have to go to YOUR failed forum to get lessons on arrogance . . .

With over 3300 visitors a month reading the forum I did not consider it failed.

Been there over 12 years, has declined as has every other Christian oriented forum but still hanging in there.

Who are you to talk when Catholicism is in steep decline?
 

gadar perets

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This ia patently false.

Individuals may have strayed - but the teachings of His Church never did.
As for individuals - Jesus warned that "wolves" would arise from His flock. He said to watch out for THEM. He NEVER said to abandon His Church BECAUSE if them.
You are correct. They never strayed from the truth. They never had the truth. When they came into existence, the docrines they adopted were already corrupted. The Christian Church strayed from Yeshua's teachings long before the RCC existed. And please don't tell me the RCC goes back to Peter. It doesn't.
 

BreadOfLife

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You are correct. They never strayed from the truth. They never had the truth. When they came into existence, the docrines they adopted were already corrupted. The Christian Church strayed from Yeshua's teachings long before the RCC existed. And please don't tell me the RCC goes back to Peter. It doesn't.
It absolutely does does - and is the ONLY Church that can prove it.
YOUR sect certainly can't . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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Go ahead and prove it.
No problem.
Ready?? Here goes . . .

The 1st century Bishop of Antion, St. Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John.
In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, we read about the Catholic Church:
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

- He wrote about the "Catholic Church" as if his readers knew what he was talking about. He wrote SEVEN letters to SEVEN churches. With no TV, no radio, no internet, no newspapers, no media of ANY kind - this would have taken MANY years to travel around the known world by word of mouth.

In those seven Letters, Ignatius describes a Church that:
Worships the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ
Deems those that DON'T believe in the Eucharist as "Heretics" and "Heterodox".
Obeys the Bishop
Teaches the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome
Respects the Clergy
Taught Apostolic Succession of the Clergy
Deems that without the clergy - there cannot be a Church
Taught Sunday worship

Gee - WHICH Church does that sound like??

- During the middle of the 2nd century, Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon wrote a treatise commonly known as "Against Heresies".
In this work, he lists all of the Bishops of Rome (Popes) from his day back to PETER.
The Early Church Fathers UNANIMOUSLY attest to this fact.

- In his book, The Oxford Dictionary of Popes, J.N.D. Kelly - one of the most respected Protestant historians traces the lineage f Popes ALL the way back to PETER.

In a court of Law - this would be a SLAM DUNK.

Ummmmm. YOUR turn . . .
 
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Mal'ak

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Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The Catholic Church has many issues, and has many past sins. But that is only because it is a religion controlled by men, and everything controlled by man becomes corrupt. But they are not the whore of Babylon, the Catholic Church saved Christianity. If the Roman Emperor Constantine did not convert, the Christian faith would have been destroyed. The reason is very simple, the only nation at that time who read/write was the Romans. All the "barbarian" tribes around the middle east and Europe was all oral traditions and laws passed down by their village elders, and at that time entire tribes were killed off by the Romans, Huns, etc. You can point out the Greeks, Israel, and Egypt had writing. But they were all conquered by the Romans, and the Romans started to kill every Christian until Constantine. Then with the influence and historians of Rome, they were able to collect all the original letters of the disciples and the OT from Israel to create the "Bible" then continued the religion on until all of Europe was converted. Of course God could have used another means to continue Christ's work after his death, but he chose the Catholic Church for very specific reasons.

To the topic of the question, who or what is the whore of Babylon. First you need to understand what Babylon is, and that is spoken of in Revelations: Revelations 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Babylon is the Kingdom of satan when he is here on Earth, everyone will be apart of the Kingdom if they like it or not. Revelations 6 when it speaks of the first four "seals", it is in fact speaking of the creation of Babylon piece by piece.

First a white horse will conquer the world, but that reminds us of Jesus' coming as he will come on a white horse(Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.) Before the end comes and satan comes down as the anti-Christ, there will come first a false prophet, as Elijah will come before Jesus' coming. The "white horse" which is suppose to be coming like Jesus coming will pretend to be bringing righteousness and peace to the world, but he will be just setting the world up by creating satan's false Christianity. (Revelations 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.) The "beast" is "Babylon", it goes back and forth in terms in Revelations, but when Jesus returns the Kingdom of satan and his false prophet will be destroyed. We also learn that the false prophet did "miracles...with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast".

While the false prophet spread lies to deceive the world, the "embodiment" of that false Christianity is called the "whore". Simply put the "whore" is satan's religion that helps give power to his Kingdom, as we learn in revelations: Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. The "whore...did corrupt the earth with her fornication", now the "fornication" is sin as we are suppose to be kept virgins for the marriage with Christ on his return. By people following the false religion at the end and worshipping satan as their god, they will have defiled themselves and are no longer virgins waiting for their husband. As Proverbs explains temptation or lusts of the flesh, anything that tries to pull you away from God's path is a "whore" trying to defile your spirit. Proverbs 23:27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increaseth the transgressors among men. At the end times the temptation will be the luring of the false prophet and his religion, because as Jesus said he will do great wonder that if it was possible even the very elect would be deceived.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The whore will be "arrayed in purple and scarlet...decked with gold", the false religion will be very powerful. "Having a golden cup...full of abominations...her forehead was a name written...mother of harlots". The "whore" will not only be powerful but filled with "abominations" , and the false religion will be the "mother of harlots". So from the "whore" as a "mother", every false teacher and deceiver will be born of her. Which is true for a religion, if you have a false religion it breeds lies and religions leaders that spread those lies. She will be "drunken with the blood of the saints", so we know that because of her many Christians will be spiritually killed when they start to follower the "whore" and believe the lie of satan when he is here. They will still call themselves Christians as they bow down to satan and worship him, but they will just be seduced by the whore.

Fun facts: Not on topic, but just if people are wondering. The second stage is the formation of the government of satan's kingdom, the "red horse", it will have power to take peace away and make war like a country leadership can. The third stage is the economy of satan's kingdom, which is the "black horse...had balances...a measure of wheat for a penny". The last stage of the creation of satan's kingdom is the coming of satan himself, which is the "pale horse" (Revelation 12:7-12).
 

CoreIssue

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No problem.
Ready?? Here goes . . .

The 1st century Bishop of Antion, St. Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John.
In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, we read about the Catholic Church:
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

- He wrote about the "Catholic Church" as if his readers knew what he was talking about. He wrote SEVEN letters to SEVEN churches. With no TV, no radio, no internet, no newspapers, no media of ANY kind - this would have taken MANY years to travel around the known world by word of mouth.

In those seven Letters, Ignatius describes a Church that:
Worships the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ
Deems those that DON'T believe in the Eucharist as "Heretics" and "Heterodox".
Obeys the Bishop
Teaches the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome
Respects the Clergy
Taught Apostolic Succession of the Clergy
Deems that without the clergy - there cannot be a Church
Taught Sunday worship

Gee - WHICH Church does that sound like??

- During the middle of the 2nd century, Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon wrote a treatise commonly known as "Against Heresies".
In this work, he lists all of the Bishops of Rome (Popes) from his day back to PETER.
The Early Church Fathers UNANIMOUSLY attest to this fact.

- In his book, The Oxford Dictionary of Popes, J.N.D. Kelly - one of the most respected Protestant historians traces the lineage f Popes ALL the way back to PETER.

In a court of Law - this would be a SLAM DUNK.

Ummmmm. YOUR turn . . .

Third-party testimony is not admissible in court unless it is materially substantiated.

You have not done that.

There is absolutely no proof that Peter was ever even in Rome.

Kelly was raised Presbyterian
And ordained the Church of England.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Norman_Davidson_Kelly

Not impressive.

So-called early church fathers were not unanimous and were named church fathers by Catholicism.

This is like a Mormon quoting the book of Mormon to prove Mormonism.
 

Mal'ak

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Not to get in the middle of the debate which is off topic, but just to point out the book of "Romans" is to the early Church of Rome. It was not the Roman Catholic church, but the roots of the Roman Catholic Church may have a connection with the early church. To if Peter went to Rome, I doubt it, he is not even mentioned once in the Book of Romans, it was Paul who went to Rome and built the church then wrote letters to sustain it. Paul was a Roman citizen so was able to travel the entire Empire, which was why he was chosen by God to spread the Word to all the "heathens". The Church and many of the Disciples in Israel mocked Paul for going to the "heathens" wanting to keep Christianity only in Israel, but some later supported Paul's ministry among them was Peter.

Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Galatians 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Actually - your claim in RED is not only ignoirant - it's historicall-babkrupt.
If you are ONLY looking for explicit Scriptural evidence - you won't find ant.
HOWEVER, there is absolutely implicit Scriptural evidence that Peter WAS in Rome.
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

"Babylon" was 1st century code for "ROME" as is evidenced by the references to it in the Book of Revelation.
Peter was never in the region that is now Iraq.

Additionally - the book, The Bones of St. Peter produces PHYSICAL evidence.

When the ossuary was excavated, the bones found inside were concluded to be those of a elderly FIRST CENTURY man who was crucified.
1st century graffiti in the catacombs beneath St. Peter's in Rome surrounding the ossuary state that "PETER IS HERE".
There are ALSO the UNANIMOUS testimonies of the Early Church.

Sorry - but this is a courtroom SLAM DUNK . . .
 

CoreIssue

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Actually - your claim in RED is not only ignoirant - it's historicall-babkrupt.
If you are ONLY looking for explicit Scriptural evidence - you won't find ant.
HOWEVER, there is absolutely implicit Scriptural evidence that Peter WAS in Rome.
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

"Babylon" was 1st century code for "ROME" as is evidenced by the references to it in the Book of Revelation.
Peter was never in the region that is now Iraq.

Additionally - the book, The Bones of St. Peter produces PHYSICAL evidence.

When the ossuary was excavated, the bones found inside were concluded to be those of a elderly FIRST CENTURY man who was crucified.
1st century graffiti in the catacombs beneath St. Peter's in Rome surrounding the ossuary state that "PETER IS HERE".
There are ALSO the UNANIMOUS testimonies of the Early Church.

Sorry - but this is a courtroom SLAM DUNK . . .

Stop posting Catholic claims. I've heard them already over the years as well as the disproofs.

You cannot post a single verse that ever says Peter was in Rome. Not one.

With Paul so active in Rome why does he ever mention Peter being there?

Post manuscript evidence from non-Catholic sources stating Peter was ever in Rome. You cannot.

In fact Peter wanted nothing to do with Gentiles.
 

mjrhealth

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Stop posting Catholic claims. I've heard them already over the years as well as the disproofs.

You cannot post a single verse that ever says Peter was in Rome. Not one.

With Paul so active in Rome why does he ever mention Peter being there?

Post manuscript evidence from non-Catholic sources stating Peter was ever in Rome. You cannot.

In fact Peter wanted nothing to do with Gentiles.
A lie needs a lie to hold on to a lie, he wont listen...
 

gadar perets

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No problem.
Ready?? Here goes . . .

The 1st century Bishop of Antion, St. Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John.
In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, we read about the Catholic Church:
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

- He wrote about the "Catholic Church" as if his readers knew what he was talking about. He wrote SEVEN letters to SEVEN churches. With no TV, no radio, no internet, no newspapers, no media of ANY kind - this would have taken MANY years to travel around the known world by word of mouth.
I didn't ask you to prove to me the "catholic church" goes back to Peter. I said the "RCC" (Roman Catholic Church). They are NOT the same no matter how much you want them to be. When Peter was supposedly commissioned as the first Pope (a lie) there were no believers in Rome. The Roman church came sometime later. The church at Rome that Paul wrote to was NOT the Roman Catholic Church either.

In those seven Letters, Ignatius describes a Church that:
Worships the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ

Blatant idolatry!
 

Marymog

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Good, we are looking at the same data. And as I hope you can plainly see the "World Data Over Time" for the "Catholic Population" has remained steadily at 17-18% from 1970-2016.

Soooo provide evidence of your steep decline statement.

Thank you in advance...Patient Mary
 

CoreIssue

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Good, we are looking at the same data. And as I hope you can plainly see the "World Data Over Time" for the "Catholic Population" has remained steadily at 17-18% from 1970-2016.

Soooo provide evidence of your steep decline statement.

Thank you in advance...Patient Mary



The number of parishes and priests has fallen dramatically in the US.

As well remember all this data is from a Catholic source.

How many Roman Catholics are there in the world?
catholicism_world.jpg