Who Is Your God?

[aspen]

Please stop twisting what I say.

I am not twisting anything - I am trying to understand what you are talking about

 

[Thankful 1]

Oh Boy, God is never demanding, how wrong have we got Him
To come to God in fear and not love , says you have no faith and do not love Him, all God asks of us is to love one another and believe in the work that His son ( Jesus), has done for us.
Now if you want to accept that our God is just like all the other gods, then believe in all that nonsense, and if that is the case you may as well go worship baal, for the consequences would be the same, he supposedly requires sacrifices and demands obedience, if our God is no different why would anyone bother following Him.

In His Love

(Acts 5:1-11) “There was another man, however, called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, Peter said ‘now can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God. When he heard this Ananias fell down dead. This made a profound impression on everyone present. The younger men got up, wrapped the body in a sheet, carried it out and buried it.



About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had taken place. Peter challenged her, ‘Tell me was this the price you sold the land for? ‘Yes,’ she said ‘that was the price.’ Peter then said, ‘So you and your husband have agreed to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test! What made you do it? You hear those footsteps? They have just been to bury your husband; they will carry you out, too.’ Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in they found she was dead, and they carried her out and buried her by the side of her husband. This made a profound impression on the whole Church and on all who heard it.”

 

[Foreigner]

How do you know? I think you are simply refusing to see what is right in front of you - the fact that God is always merciful

-- This was Aspen's response to Duck's statement that there is no place worse than hell.
An eternity of torment in fire combined with the eternal seperation of God combined with the knowledge that you could have avoided it...







...yet Aspen has to ask how Duck knows there is no place worse than hell.

LOL Honestly Aspen :lol:




"Who is your God?"

-- Simple. Anything you turn to first in time of trouble.

Drugs. Sex. Abuse. Alcohol. If one of these is you first reaction to trouble and challenges then THAT is your God.

 

[TexUs]

Puns intended.

Aspen,
If God is always merciful (And apparently there's no hell) then I must ask, WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT OF THE CROSS?
If God is always merciful, what the HELL was he saving people from?

 

[TexUs]

God will judge the unrepentant and send them into eternal suffering.

It's judgement done in Love.

Spank your child. Is it because you don't love them, or because they broke your rules and to not spank them is for you to break your own rule about punishment?

For God not to punish people would be breaking his own law. It would not make him a Just God.

For him to stay Just, he must punish people.


I think far too many people think that people start up in "heaven" and that "mean old God" kicks them down to hell, but the opposite is true.
We all start out in HELL. We are all wicked, 100% of us are going there. We put ourselves there. By God's divine grace and mercy on us he pulls us from it.

It seems that, today, people tend to believe that the prayer for salvation will save people. That's not true!

Well, it is true, but only if you believe it. People think the prayer saves them. It does not.
You don't even need to PRAY to be saved! You just have to BELIEVE.
BELIEVE should precede PRAY.

So your God has a lower form of morality than He requires of His creation? Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but He sends His to Hell? This is not a message that is going to bring light to the world.

We aren't his enemies. We are our own enemies.
God and Satan (and all evil) aren't "duking it out", we aren't just sitting around hoping that God will prevail. Your view of God is far too small and limiting.
He WILL and DOES get his way, period.

Read any of Paul's letters, read Jesus' confrontation of people. The attention was always drawn to their sin first, their need of a savior. THIS is the way both Christ and the Apostles presented the gospel.
One cannot have an appreciation for the LOVE of God without first knowing the WRATH that is coming their way. You might not think this is Politically Correct enough but it's the way it was done.

it is certainly not moral to worship such a God.

Says who?
If God is indeed like this, he says WORSHIP ME. I don't think it's up to your tiny little brain to question that.

It was the same thing that happened to the demons that Jesus cast into the pigs out of compassion. It is interesting that the pigs ran over the cliff - the demons chose Hell rather than be in Christ's presence.

They CHOSE that, did they?
Let's look at the passage:

When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” ... A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission.

Where did they have a choice? They were going to get their asses handed to them by the King of Kings, they fell down in front of him scared. There was no choice here.

As far as the flood story - it is more of a story about God's omnipotence than His justice.

Ah yes, far too many people skim over the, "I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.” portion of the flood story. As well as skim over the entire purpose the story exists in the first place:
God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."

Is compassion the second half of this? Absolutely. However, it shares pages with the judgement of God.

 

[aspen]

-- This was Aspen's response to Duck's statement that there is no place worse than hell.
An eternity of torment in fire combined with the eternal seperation of God combined with the knowledge that you could have avoided it...







...yet Aspen has to ask how Duck knows there is no place worse than hell.

LOL Honestly Aspen :lol:




"Who is your God?"

-- Simple. Anything you turn to first in time of trouble.

Drugs. Sex. Abuse. Alcohol. If one of these is you first reaction to trouble and challenges then THAT is your God.

I am glad Augustine, CS Lewis and I could give you such a good laugh. The sad thing is that you mock me as if I made up the idea out of my own imagination - you really need to read more.

 

[aspen]

We aren't his enemies. We are our own enemies.

God and Satan (and all evil) aren't "duking it out", we aren't just sitting around hoping that God will prevail. Your view of God is far too small and limiting.
He WILL and DOES get his way, period.

God is self-limited by His own nature - God cannot sin. Therefore, he cannot and will not demand a higher moral standard just to 'get his way' - it would be immoral and against His nature to do so.

Read any of Paul's letters, read Jesus' confrontation of people. The attention was always drawn to their sin first, their need of a savior. THIS is the way both Christ and the Apostles presented the gospel.
One cannot have an appreciation for the LOVE of God without first knowing the WRATH that is coming their way. You might not think this is Politically Correct enough but it's the way it was done.


You are preaching heresy. Pure a simple. You are making God's love (Good) dependent and His wrath, based on our sin (evil) - this is Eastern religion, not Christianity. God's Good stands alone.

You are making the wrong assumption about why Jesus and the apostles talked about repentance before love. It is not because God requires us to do something before He can act - it is because He wants us to be free from slavery and therefore able to receive His Love. How are we supposed to be able to receive His love if we are so busy focused on ourselves?

Says who?
If God is indeed like this, he says WORSHIP ME. I don't think it's up to your tiny little brain to question that.

Wrong. Satan tells us the same thing. God calls us to be discerning - therefore I refuse to worship a petty, vindictive, image of God put forth by small-minded people - I know better than that.


They CHOSE that, did they?
Let's look at the passage:

When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” ... A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission.

Where did they have a choice? They were going to get their asses handed to them by the King of Kings, they fell down in front of him scared. There was no choice here.


They had that same choice as the unredeemed souls will at the Judgment. Remain in God's presence and be tortured or allow God to remove them from His presence by sending them to Hell. I am not saying Hell will be a vacation spot, but it will certainly be better then the horror of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God.

Ah yes, far too many people skim over the, "I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.” portion of the flood story. As well as skim over the entire purpose the story exists in the first place:
God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."

Is compassion the second half of this? Absolutely. However, it shares pages with the judgement of God.

Actually, I think more people seem to revel in the fact that all the evil people got what they deserved in this story. It is far more likely that people may skim over the fact that this story points to God's omnipotence - that He is indeed capable and justified in ruling all of creation. If justice was the real point of the story - God would have wiped all evil from the Earth - Noah may have been the least evil of his generation, but he was still evil and he still remained separated from God. Yet, it would seem that people would rather focus on sinners getting what they deserve, rather than God's power.

 

[Foreigner]

I am glad Augustine, CS Lewis and I could give you such a good laugh. The sad thing is that you mock me as if I made up the idea out of my own imagination - you really need to read more.

-- blah blah blah blah what tripe.
I have been reading C.S. Lewis since 1980 and have quite a library of him.
"The Great Divorce" lays out his opinion well, but does not automatically make it fact.
The door to hell is NOT locked from the inside.

But if you can make a better argument than "you should read more" I am willing to listen.

But perhaps you should read more, as well. In speaking of Hell, why not start with...oh, I don't know...what the Bible says?

 

[Foreigner]

"I am not saying Hell will be a vacation spot, but it will certainly be better then the horror of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God." - Aspen


"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."-- Matt. 25:


-- It was such a 'horror' that they stood there asking for clarification, waiting on a response, hoping that His explanation will make them understand or give them a loophole.

Sure doesn't sound like the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" that they would be experiencing in Hell....does it?

They were "unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God"....carrying on a conversation with Him, no less.

 

[th1b.taylor]

So your God has a lower form of morality than He requires of His creation? Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but He sends His to Hell? This is not a message that is going to bring light to the world.

WOW!!! I can do no less than to suggest that you either spend 25 to 30 dollars and purchase a copy of the Nave's Topical or that you download the e-Sword from e-sword.net followed by a free copy of the Nave's ad that you then look up God and do the study. God, long ago, vanquished His enemies but as for Him sending anyone to Hell... He does not do that! Neither does He force those that refused to worship Him to bow down and live in His house for eternity. They chose Hell and He allows them their choice.

 

[TexUs]

God is self-limited by His own nature - God cannot sin. Therefore, he cannot and will not demand a higher moral standard just to 'get his way' - it would be immoral and against His nature to do so.

What higher moral standard IS there than what he set before Adam and Eve? There is ONE moral standard. NOBODY can live up to it. Us not being able to live up to the moral standard doesn't make us his enemies, it makes us our own enemies.

You are preaching heresy. Pure a simple. You are making God's love (Good) dependent and His wrath, based on our sin (evil) - this is Eastern religion, not Christianity. God's Good stands alone.

Please tell me what the first three chapters of Romans are. Ushy-Gooshy love standing alone?

it is because He wants us to be free from slavery and therefore able to receive His Love. How are we supposed to be able to receive His love if we are so busy focused on ourselves?

We can't understand that we ARE in slavery until he draws our attention to that. "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks".
The irony of your argument is your last statement is an example of us. We are so self-focused we will never be able to understand our chains UNTIL HE DRAWS ATTENTION TO IT.

They had that same choice as the unredeemed souls will at the Judgment.

Where's it say this?
Your entire flawed argument is missing a fact: God has GIVEN the demons free control and free reign. They are not bound to one fate until the end.

Actually, I think more people seem to revel in the fact that all the evil people got what they deserved in this story.

And this is coming from the person that doesn't think we should preach hell?
The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing...

I am glad Augustine, CS Lewis and I could give you such a good laugh. The sad thing is that you mock me as if I made up the idea out of my own imagination - you really need to read more.

I guess your Catholic and value the teachings of little-minded humans more than I do, but there are many teachings of both that I disagree with. CS Lewis was a great mind, that also supported evolution for a time while supposedly also believing the Bible.

If God is indeed like this, he says WORSHIP ME. I don't think it's up to your tiny little brain to question that.
Wrong.

Wow. Well, there you have it folks, Aspen is now the judge of God.

 

[Foreigner]

"Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but He sends His to Hell? This is not a message that is going to bring light to the world." - Aspen







-- Jesus said "I am the light of the world" yet during His time on earth he spent more time warning about Hell than extolling heaven.

Please stick to the scripture and not just your opinion, big guy.

Seems like those itchy ears of yours mentioned in 2 Tim. are getting the best of you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

........You who said that God is love is both a truth and a lie...Where do you get off saying such a thing about God......Are you saying He is divided against Himself?.........Were we not also informed that LOVE is the GREATEST WAY......

I see we have a group of New Testament Christians here but the saddest thing in the world is that there is no such thing! In the Christian Bible there are two major divisions, the 39 books of the Old Testament... the Bible, followed by the 27 books and letters of the New Testament... The very best Life Application Commentary ever pinned of the Bible. Just as when I became a soldier, I had Basic Training, so must a Christian! The first time I read the first 39 books a God of holy wrath was revealed to me. As I reread those 39 books I discovered the God of love and creation. Since that time on, who knows the number, I have been excited and reread and I have discovered so many new revelations of God that, sometimes, it is difficult to assemble them all.

An accurate understanding of God, His love, justice, righteousness and unlimited power can never begin to be grasped without reading His entire revelation of Himself.

 

[TexUs]

-- Jesus said "I am the light of the world" yet during His time on earth he spent more time warning about Hell than extolling heaven.

Absolutely and in fact part of our FAITH is to TRUST him when he says no mind can know what he has prepared for us.

I see we have a group of New Testament Christians here but the saddest thing in the world is that there is no such thing! In the Christian Bible there are two major divisions, the 39 books of the Old Testament... the Bible, followed by the 27 books and letters of the New Testament... The very best Life Application Commentary ever pinned of the Bible. Just as when I became a soldier, I had Basic Training, so must a Christian! The first time I read the first 39 books a God of holy wrath was revealed to me. As I reread those 39 books I discovered the God of love and creation. Since that time on, who knows the number, I have been excited and reread and I have discovered so many new revelations of God that, sometimes, it is difficult to assemble them all.

An accurate understanding of God, His love, justice, righteousness and unlimited power can never begin to be grasped without reading His entire revelation of Himself.

Absolutely.

The OT is terrifying stuff. As I've said too many people skim over the "he wiped every creature from the face of the earth". God is not someone to be toyed with, he means business, and he will justly judge everyone, and then he will justly pour his wrath on those not covered by the blood.

 

[aspen]

-- blah blah blah blah what tripe.
I have been reading C.S. Lewis since 1980 and have quite a library of him.
"The Great Divorce" lays out his opinion well, but does not automatically make it fact.
The door to hell is NOT locked from the inside.

But if you can make a better argument than "you should read more" I am willing to listen.

But perhaps you should read more, as well. In speaking of Hell, why not start with...oh, I don't know...what the Bible says?

It is rare to find someone who is so full of himself that he can just dismiss 1800 years of theology with a few blah, blah, blahs....

So where exactly does the Bible tell us that Hell is the worse place we can experience? How about providing some evidence of your own before you dismiss what I have to say as "tripe" - pure class

WOW!!! I can do no less than to suggest that you either spend 25 to 30 dollars and purchase a copy of the Nave's Topical or that you download the e-Sword from e-sword.net followed by a free copy of the Nave's ad that you then look up God and do the study. God, long ago, vanquished His enemies but as for Him sending anyone to Hell... He does not do that! Neither does He force those that refused to worship Him to bow down and live in His house for eternity. They chose Hell and He allows them their choice.

I totally agree - not sure why you sound so shocked by my post.

All I am saying is that God is the standard for morality - but, according to some people on this board, God can do whatever He wants because He is God and must have a good reason for doing what He choses to do - this is wrong and immoral. There are things that God will not do because He is moral - one of theses things is that He would never ask us to love our enemies and then turn around and hate His own enemies.

 

[Foreigner]

It is rare to find someone who is so full of himself that he can just dismiss 1800 years of theology with a few blah, blah, blahs....

So where exactly does the Bible tell us that Hell is the worse place we can experience? How about providing some evidence of your own before you dismiss what I have to say as "tripe" - pure class

-- Amazing. You think that just because a theologic view has been held by someone or some group for 1800 years (without of course mentioning that group) that others should take it as fact. Gospel, if you will.

The Bible describes perfectly the tortures and peril of hell. You have provided nothing to show there is anything worse than everlasting torture, the emotional pain of being seperated from Jesus and the knowledge that it didn't have to be this way.

Repeat: Nothing.






------------------------------------------------------
"I am not saying Hell will be a vacation spot, but it will certainly be better then the horror of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God." - Aspen


"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."-- Matt. 25:


-- It was such a 'horror' that they stood there asking for clarification, waiting on a response, hoping that His explanation will make them understand or give them a loophole.

Sure doesn't sound like the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" that they would be experiencing in Hell....does it?

They were "unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God"....carrying on a conversation with Him, no less.
---------------------------------------------------------


-- Noticed you skipped on this one ^^^^^^^ Guess that old "1800 years of theology" couldn't hold up to actual scripture, huh?

 

[aspen]

What higher moral standard IS there than what he set before Adam and Eve? There is ONE moral standard. NOBODY can live up to it. Us not being able to live up to the moral standard doesn't make us his enemies, it makes us our own enemies.


You are not understanding what I am trying to tell you. All I am trying to say is that God is the standard for all morality; therefore, He would never ask His creation to behave in a manner that is more moral than He is willing to behave in. In other words, God would never ask His creation to love their enemies, while He refuses to do so Himself. It would be like a parent who told there children never to steal, while at the same time, stealing themselves.


Please tell me what the first three chapters of Romans are. Ushy-Gooshy love standing alone?


Paul's writings contain some of the most loving words in the whole NT. Like I said before, Paul is only trying to prepare his congregation to experience God's love fully by repenting of their sin.

We can't understand that we ARE in slavery until he draws our attention to that. "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks".
The irony of your argument is your last statement is an example of us. We are so self-focused we will never be able to understand our chains UNTIL HE DRAWS ATTENTION TO IT.


Thanks for yelling - I think it really helped me understand the truth.....
I actually said the same thing as you are saying. The only difference between our understanding of repentance is that you seem to believe that God is taking our rebellion personally - as if He cannot believe how much His children spite Him and therefore is justified in beating and torturing us for being so disobedient. I refuse to believe this - instead, I believe God is not shocked at all - like my reaction to my dogs throwing up on the carpet - do I take it personally? No! They are dogs!! We are fallen humans - unredeemed, we act as expected!


The best way to handle our rebellion is not to lower the boom or incite guilt and shame within us - it is to act like Christ and the disciples, by letting sinner know that they do not have to sin anymore because Christ will quench our thirst, and if we are willing to stop trying to quench our own thirst through half-measures or sin, He will satisfy our thirst forever.

Where's it say this?
Your entire flawed argument is missing a fact: God has GIVEN the demons free control and free reign. They are not bound to one fate until the end.


I know who God is. He is merciful. He wants us to be with Him for eternity, but He will not force His unredeemed children to be tortured in His presence,

And this is coming from the person that doesn't think we should preach hell?
The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing...


You took my statement out of context. I believe Hell is the condition of an unredeemed heart. If we preach Hell in this manner, I do not see a problem. If, instead, we preach Hell as punishment for the depravity of humanity, I think it simply will not be an effective message. It may have worked to scare people into repentance in the Middle Ages, but it doesn't work in a post modern world.

I guess your Catholic and value the teachings of little-minded humans more than I do, but there are many teachings of both that I disagree with. CS Lewis was a great mind, that also supported evolution for a time while supposedly also believing the Bible.

Thanks for the complement - are you trying to charm me into the Kingdom again?

Wow. Well, there you have it folks, Aspen is now the judge of God.


Absolutely not! However, I must certainly am the judge of your cruel, small-minded image of God.

"Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but He sends His to Hell? This is not a message that is going to bring light to the world." - Aspen

-- Jesus said "I am the light of the world" yet during His time on earth he spent more time warning about Hell than extolling heaven.

Please stick to the scripture and not just your opinion, big guy.

Seems like those itchy ears of yours mentioned in 2 Tim. are getting the best of you.

I will always promote God's true character 'big guy', despite your hell-bent desire to make Him into an immoral, irrational, punisher. Of course Jesus warned about Hell - He was trying to promote the Kingdom of Heaven in the hearts of His creation. If people refused to repent and remained unredeemed, their hearts would remain hard and they would not be able to learn to be citizens of heaven through justification and sanctification.

 

[TexUs]

It is rare to find someone who is so full of himself that he can just dismiss 1800 years of theology with a few blah, blah, blahs....

With all respect, What the hell difference does it make how long it has been around?
Many people thought the earth was flat for thousands of years, does that make their theory better? We thought spontaneous generation was possible until only modern scientists disproved it: does that make their theory better?
Sorry but please, in the future, restrain from using such things to validate your opinions. It's just silly. I can pull out statistics like this ALL THE TIME from the early church but I don't because I acknowledge that they are not authoritative sources. They are more "informational" than anything and should always be taken with grains of salt.

So where exactly does the Bible tell us that Hell is the worse place we can experience? How about providing some evidence of your own before you dismiss what I have to say as "tripe" - pure class

Fact is that we don't know much about it.
Nor do you know much about anything you're claiming. In fact "light has no business with the dark" would seem to tell us that God would separate himself from those he pours is wrath onto.

Let's approach this from the beginning. Where do we see people have a choice? I see people are headed for eternal condemnation, I see nothing supporting people being in God's presence, so even if we are to argue this: what's the point of it if it won't apply to anyone?

 

[aspen]

I see we have a group of New Testament Christians here but the saddest thing in the world is that there is no such thing! In the Christian Bible there are two major divisions, the 39 books of the Old Testament... the Bible, followed by the 27 books and letters of the New Testament... The very best Life Application Commentary ever pinned of the Bible. Just as when I became a soldier, I had Basic Training, so must a Christian! The first time I read the first 39 books a God of holy wrath was revealed to me. As I reread those 39 books I discovered the God of love and creation. Since that time on, who knows the number, I have been excited and reread and I have discovered so many new revelations of God that, sometimes, it is difficult to assemble them all.

An accurate understanding of God, His love, justice, righteousness and unlimited power can never begin to be grasped without reading His entire revelation of Himself.

Ah so does this 'basic training' help us overlook all the immoral, petty, hateful characteristics of God, while condemning the same behavior in people? No thanks - if this is your image of God, I want no part of it. I know the character of the true God of the OT and the NT.

Absolutely and in fact part of our FAITH is to TRUST him when he says no mind can know what he has prepared for us.


Absolutely.

The OT is terrifying stuff. As I've said too many people skim over the "he wiped every creature from the face of the earth". God is not someone to be toyed with, he means business, and he will justly judge everyone, and then he will justly pour his wrath on those not covered by the blood.

You are putting your trust in an image of God that is cruel and punitive. It is your choice - you sure sound excited about doing so. But if one day you are standing in front of the real God - do not be surprised when He says, 'I never knew you'

With all respect, What the hell difference does it make how long it has been around?
Many people thought the earth was flat for thousands of years, does that make their theory better? We thought spontaneous generation was possible until only modern scientists disproved it: does that make their theory better?
Sorry but please, in the future, restrain from using such things to validate your opinions. It's just silly. I can pull out statistics like this ALL THE TIME from the early church but I don't because I acknowledge that they are not authoritative sources. They are more "informational" than anything and should always be taken with grains of salt.


What makes your idea more accurate? Despite your self confidence, education and history actually count for something! You would reference the Founding Fathers if someone told you that we were always a Hindu nation - why is it so shocking to hear from Augustine?

Fact is that we don't know much about it.
Nor do you know much about anything you're claiming. In fact "light has no business with the dark" would seem to tell us that God would separate himself from those he pours is wrath onto.

Then what is the problem with my speculation that preserves God's mercy?

Let's approach this from the beginning. Where do we see people have a choice? I see people are headed for eternal condemnation, I see nothing supporting people being in God's presence, so even if we are to argue this: what's the point of it if it won't apply to anyone?


We are all going to stand before judgment. I do not mean that the unredeemed are going to plan for Hell like a vacation spot, but they will choose it like people who may choose to jump into fire if they are are being cooked alive in a fry pan.

 

[TexUs]

God would never ask His creation to love their enemies, while He refuses to do so Himself.

Where's it say this? (Not that I disagree), but: Where's it say this?

Paul's writings contain some of the most loving words in the whole NT. Like I said before, Paul is only trying to prepare his congregation to experience God's love fully by repenting of their sin.

Let me say this slower...
What... are.... the... first... three... chapters... of... Romans?????


Here, I'll get you started:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts
God gave them over to shameful lusts.
so God gave them over to a depraved mind
Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
trouble and distress for every human being who does evil
the day when God judges people’s secrets
That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not!
and the whole world held accountable to God

as if He cannot believe how much His children spite Him and therefore is justified in beating and torturing us for being so disobedient.

Then who are we spiting? If we are not personally insulting God, then WHO are we spiting? This is key.
He laid out his law. "Do this or die". We didn't do that, we are given death. He is FULLY justified in following his own law. If he doesn't, he is no longer a just God because he breaks his own law and we make him to be a liar!

I know who God is. He is merciful. He wants us to be with Him for eternity, but He will not force His unredeemed children to be tortured in His presence,

You ignored my question. WHERE does it say people have a choice to stay in God's presence or go to hell?

You took my statement out of context. I believe Hell is the condition of an unredeemed heart.

Luke 16:22 disagrees with you absolutely. It's somewhere after death.

It may have worked to scare people into repentance in the Middle Ages, but it doesn't work in a post modern world.

So, the gospel is no longer effective today? You cannot change the gospel just because you don't like how Politically Correct it may or may not be.

Absolutely not! However, I must certainly am the judge of your cruel, small-minded image of God.

What did you do with his character? "I refuse to worship a petty, vindictive, image of God"?????
It seems like you just JUDGED the Character of God and thus refused to worship a God who doesn't fit your bill.
I said, IF GOD WAS LIKE THIS, and he tells you to worship him, WHO ARE YOU- to say different? Let's imagine for a second that God had a temper and killed anyone that used his name in vain instantly. But he tells you to worship him. WHO ARE YOU- to refuse? No matter the character of God- he's still God- regardless of how you judge his character to be.
You don't like a God that deals in vengeance? Who does vengeance belong to according to Romans 12:19? You can disagree with the facts of the Bible but it won't change God's character nor the fact that you should worship him.