Who Is Your God?

[Foreigner]

"I will always promote God's true character 'big guy', despite your hell-bent desire to make Him into an immoral, irrational, punisher." - Aspen

-- Again with you injecting your non-supported opinion.
Have never thought that - or claimed - Jesus was an "immoral, irrational punisher."
You have absolutely nothing to base it on but you throw it out there to deflect.
Your M.O. is pretty obvious by now.

Jesus gave these warnings (along with His life) to do all He could to keep people from suffering this terrible fate.
(Does that really sound like an "immoral, irrational punisher" to you?)
Salvation 101, big guy




"I will always promote God's true character 'big guy', despite your hell-bent desire to make Him into an immoral, irrational, punisher. Of course Jesus warned about Hell - He was trying to promote the Kingdom of Heaven in the hearts of His creation. If people refused to repent and remained unredeemed, their hearts would remain hard and they would not be able to learn to be citizens of heaven through justification and sanctification. " - Aspen


-- So Jesus warned about Hell multiple times, not to warn people of the dangers of actually ending up there...but to prevent their hearts from being hardened?

He warned of Hell in order to make sure people understood the dangers awaiting those who do not repent and accept him.

He then proved the warnings were done out of love by sacrificing His life to pay for any sins they committed.

Everything He said and did was out of love.

Yes, it really is that simple.

 

[TexUs]

What makes your idea more accurate? Despite your self confidence, education and history actually count for something! You would reference the Founding Fathers if someone told you that we were always a Hindu nation - why is it so shocking to hear from Augustine?

Because those are human arguments with only human sources.
You're advocating for human INTERPRETATIONS of INSPIRED WORKS. The INSPIRED WORKS are unchanged, it is the human INTERPRETATIONS that are subject.


If someone came up with a secret document from the 1700s that said it was Hindu one would have to re-evaluate our understanding of it, wouldn't we?
Ir someone produces a secret document speaking heresy against the gospel (this was happening even in Jesus' days), you weigh it against the Bible.


You still ignored the theories of flat earth, those are older than our interpretations yet using your flawed logic they would be more credible.
The Pharisee's logic is older than Christ's message, yet using your flawed logic they would be more credible.

Then what is the problem with my speculation that preserves God's mercy?

Because it's not Biblically supported and as I pointed out in my last post, even contradictive of it.

I do not mean that the unredeemed are going to plan for Hell like a vacation spot, but they will choose it like people who may choose to jump into fire if they are are being cooked alive in a fry pan.

Once more, you must prove that we have a choice before you can continue farther in this argument of us having a choice.

 

[Foreigner]

Noticed Aspen is still skipping over this one:


"I am not saying Hell will be a vacation spot, but it will certainly be better then the horror of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God." - Aspen


"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."-- Matt. 25:


-- It was such a 'horror' that they stood there asking for clarification, waiting on a response, hoping that His explanation will make them understand or give them a loophole.

Sure doesn't sound like the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" that they would be experiencing in Hell....does it?

They were "unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God"....carrying on a conversation with Him, no less.

 

[Foreigner]

Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but He sends His to Hell? This is not a message that is going to bring light to the world." - Aspen



-- Again, Jesus said "I am the light of the world" and yes, those who do not repent and accept Him as Lord will go to hell.

Are you really saying it is otherwise?

 

[aspen]

Where's it say this? (Not that I disagree), but: Where's it say this?

Same place the Bible condemns downloading illegal music off the internet, J-walking, and cloning - it is a logical conclusion, based on what we know about God.

Let me say this slower...
What... are.... the... first... three... chapters... of... Romans?????

I do not respond to this level of condescension, sorry.

Then who are we spiting? If we are not personally insulting God, then WHO are we spiting? This is key.
He laid out his law. "Do this or die". We didn't do that, we are given death. He is FULLY justified in following his own law. If he doesn't, he is no longer a just God because he breaks his own law and we make him to be a liar!

That is my whole point - we are not spiting anyone. We are simply acting out of this Original Sin. Now, before you claim that I am doing away with personal responsibility - I am not. Alcoholics have a disease, but they are still responsible for their behavior - it is the same with sinners. The fact is, we are in a desperate situation - like climbers on Everest who did not prepare - we are going to die without help. Jesus came to help us - He even compared us to sick people who need a doctor, rather than naughty children that need a good beating. A God that is still shocked and angry about predictable behavior from unredeemed children is not worth knowing, let alone worshiping. We need help, not shame heaped upon shame.

BTW, is my dog call me a liar when he sneaks into the kitchen and tries to steal something out of the trash? I claim that he is house trained. No! He is being a dog.
You ignored my question. WHERE does it say people have a choice to stay in God's presence or go to hell?

Like the Trinity, it is not explicitly stated in the Bible - you would not have asked if you knew it was. The fact is, I know God is merciful and not willing to torture His children beyond what they have already set themselves up for. Just like God marked Cain and allowed the demons to go into the pigs - He set up a place apart from Him, called Hell.

Luke 16:22 disagrees with you absolutely. It's somewhere after death.

Actually, I agree with Luke 16:22. Hell is a place for the unredeemed after day. The place called Hell is not important - it could be a giant broom closet - but the condition of the hearts of the residents of Hell is very important - cut off from the Body / radically individualistic / self-centered / bitter / cheated / alone.

So, the gospel is no longer effective today? You cannot change the gospel just because you don't like how Politically Correct it may or may not be.

If you call the gospel, "Scare the crap out of all the proud, idiotic, immoral, enemies of God, until they understand how wretched they really are and agree to bow to a vengeful God who can barely hold back from torturing them for eternity - then yes, the gospel is no longer effective today.

If you believe like I do, that the gospel is an invitation for freedom, love and transformation, which will last forever, then it is very effective.

What did you do with his character? "I refuse to worship a petty, vindictive, image of God"?????
It seems like you just JUDGED the Character of God and thus refused to worship a God who doesn't fit your bill.
I said, IF GOD WAS LIKE THIS, and he tells you to worship him, WHO ARE YOU- to say different? Let's imagine for a second that God had a temper and killed anyone that used his name in vain instantly. But he tells you to worship him. WHO ARE YOU- to refuse? No matter the character of God- he's still God- regardless of how you judge his character to be.
You don't like a God that deals in vengeance? Who does vengeance belong to according to Romans 12:19? You can disagree with the facts of the Bible but it won't change God's character nor the fact that you should worship him.

I will not worship a God that treats me worse than I treat my dogs - pure and simple. The Good News is that I know God - and I know that He is the standard for love and morality. I also know that every word in the Bible is merciful - God always treats humanity is the most effective and merciful manner possible - it is His nature. Your claim that I am judging God is only partially correct - I am judging your image of God, which I perceive to be false. It rings false in my ears because I know God and would never worship anyone else, certainly not a poor imitation. Now, I am not trying to insult you - I struggle with not creating an image of God that is lesser than His truly is - of course, I do - I am human. However, I recognize this tendency and always move back to a place of 'unknowing'. I know that God is beyond all thoughts and all words (including the Bible) and the glimpses that have been revealed to us by Him are mere fragments of who He is. All we know are the basics - all powerful, all-knowing, ever present, Triune, Love, Good, Moral, Trustworthy, Just, Worthy of worship and praise, So based on these characteristics I dare to speculate, while refusing to accept anything less.

"I will always promote God's true character 'big guy', despite your hell-bent desire to make Him into an immoral, irrational, punisher." - Aspen

-- Again with you injecting your non-supported opinion.
Have never thought that - or claimed - Jesus was an "immoral, irrational punisher."
You have absolutely nothing to base it on but you throw it out there to deflect.
Your M.O. is pretty obvious by now.

Jesus gave these warnings (along with His life) to do all He could to keep people from suffering this terrible fate.
(Does that really sound like an "immoral, irrational punisher" to you?)
Salvation 101, big guy




"I will always promote God's true character 'big guy', despite your hell-bent desire to make Him into an immoral, irrational, punisher. Of course Jesus warned about Hell - He was trying to promote the Kingdom of Heaven in the hearts of His creation. If people refused to repent and remained unredeemed, their hearts would remain hard and they would not be able to learn to be citizens of heaven through justification and sanctification. " - Aspen


-- So Jesus warned about Hell multiple times, not to warn people of the dangers of actually ending up there...but to prevent their hearts from being hardened?

He warned of Hell in order to make sure people understood the dangers awaiting those who do not repent and accept him.

He then proved the warnings were done out of love by sacrificing His life to pay for any sins they committed.

Everything He said and did was out of love.

Yes, it really is that simple.

You said it above - and I believe it is the only difference we really have in this discussion 'Big Guy' - God's intention. Was it to warn us that we would be tortured by Him for eternity for not obeying Him? Or was it to warn us of the condition of our unredeemed heart and an invitation for love and transformation? I believe it was an invitation to be redeemed.

 

[Foreigner]

You said it above - and I believe it is the only difference we really have in this discussion 'Big Guy' - God's intention. Was it to warn us that we would be tortured by Him for eternity for not obeying Him? Or was it to warn us of the condition of our unredeemed heart and an invitation for love and transformation? I believe it was an invitation to be redeemed.

-- Semantics. "that we would be tortured by Him for eternity for not obeying Him" is misleading and inaccurate.
Original sin sealed their fate. He was showing what they needed to do to avoid what was their fate, brought on by the actions of Adam and Eve.
Jesus gave his body to be broken and slain in order to pay the price for the sins that could cause them to go to hell.
He did the hard part. He was simply warning of the downside for not accepting His love.

Noticed Aspen is still skipping over this one:


"I am not saying Hell will be a vacation spot, but it will certainly be better then the horror of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God." - Aspen


"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me." "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."-- Matt. 25:


-- It was such a 'horror' that they stood there asking for clarification, waiting on a response, hoping that His explanation will make them understand or give them a loophole.

Sure doesn't sound like the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" that they would be experiencing in Hell....does it?

They were "unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God"....carrying on a conversation with Him, no less.

-- And you are still skipping over this one.

 

[TexUs]

Same place the Bible condemns downloading illegal music off the internet, J-walking, and cloning - it is a logical conclusion, based on what we know about God.

No, actually, those are specifically spoken of in "do not steal", "submit to your authorities". (As far as cloning I don't see anywhere it's unbiblical).
The question still remains for you: where is "God would never ask His creation to love their enemies, while He refuses to do so Himself." stated in the Bible?

I do not respond to this level of condescension, sorry.

Ahhh yes, the Bible shoots your argument in the foot so instead of addressing applicable Scripture you chose one of my statements in an effort to negate the scripture.


What do you think the first three chapters of Romans deal with?
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts
God gave them over to shameful lusts.
so God gave them over to a depraved mind
Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
trouble and distress for every human being who does evil
the day when God judges people’s secrets
That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not!
and the whole world held accountable to God

That is my whole point - we are not spiting anyone.

Whose words (law) do we rebel against? Hint: Joshua 1:18
Who do we rebel against? Hint: Deuteronomy 9:7

The fact is, I know God is merciful and not willing to torture His children beyond what they have already set themselves up for.

And yet the Bible specifically speaks of the wrath of God for sin.
Your support isn't in the Bible because it's not Biblical, it'd be contrary to what it teaches.

If you call the gospel, "Scare the crap out of all the proud, idiotic, immoral, enemies of God, until they understand how wretched they really are and agree to bow to a vengeful God who can barely hold back from torturing them for eternity - then yes, the gospel is no longer effective today.

LOL, you sure can't find medium between "Loving God" and "Judgmental God", can you? He's both- simple concept you can't seem to grasp.

I will not worship a God that treats me worse than I treat my dogs - pure and simple.

If you're a Christian, he won't.
If you're not, then I'm sorry, but it is indeed worse than you treat your dogs.


I started replying to the rest of your post but I can't even believe I'm entertaining this idea. You're essentially saying there's no punishment for sin. The Bible is 100% opposed to that and I will need you to start scripturally backing yourself up before I entertain argument on this anymore.

 

[aspen]

No, actually, those are specifically spoken of in "do not steal", "submit to your authorities". (As far as cloning I don't see anywhere it's unbiblical).
The question still remains for you: where is "God would never ask His creation to love their enemies, while He refuses to do so Himself." stated in the Bible?

I think you understand my point and are refusing to follow the logic behind it. Not everything is explicitly stated in the Bible. In fact, the Bible doesn't even bother saying that God cannot sin, but we know He cannot. So if you want to believe, against logic, that God can command His creation to love their enemies, while He refuses to do so, because it is not explicitly stated in the Bible - knock yourself out.

Whose words (law) do we rebel against? Hint: Joshua 1:18
Who do we rebel against? Hint: Deuteronomy 9:7

Of course, I never said that we did not rebel against God, but I guess you have to believe what you have to believe - thanks for the hint btw - guess I received another benefit of holy condescension.


And yet the Bible specifically speaks of the wrath of God for sin.
Your support isn't in the Bible because it's not Biblical, it'd be contrary to what it teaches.

If you want to believe that God is petty, go ahead - I refuse to believe that God treats us so poorly. I believe that God wrote the Bible through man and humans 2000 years ago had a very punitive and angry view of God - all the references to God's wrath are actually God's attempts to communicate love and mercy to a primitive people.

LOL, you sure can't find medium between "Loving God" and "Judgmental God", can you? He's both- simple concept you can't seem to grasp.

So He is both moral and immoral? We would arrest a prosecute parents who treated their children like a literal reading of the the Bible portrays God - believe it if you want to.

If you're a Christian, he won't.
If you're not, then I'm sorry, but it is indeed worse than you treat your dogs.

So wrong. It sounds to me like from you point of view God can do whatever He wants - moral, immoral, evil, vindictive, petty, whatever - because He is God, morality can simply fly out the window. Scary POV IMO. From that POV, one could find himself worshiping any tyrant that asserts himself.

I started replying to the rest of your post but I can't even believe I'm entertaining this idea. You're essentially saying there's no punishment for sin. The Bible is 100% opposed to that and I will need you to start scripturally backing yourself up before I entertain argument on this anymore.

I think you really enjoy the idea of punishment. Hell has to be punishment in order to make you feel superior - if all the unredeemed people out there are going to be punished you get to be right. I really think Christianity for many people is all about being right while everyone else is wrong - how secure it must feel. And then someday, all the bad people - the proud and arrogant people who refused to submit to God are going to pay, big time!

Christianity is much more than this black and white, dualistic thinking. Reducing God to an abusive parent is not reality, nor is it going to encourage people to submit to Christ.

Here is why we will never agree:

1. You enjoy the idea of a punitive God - a God that is going to get the bad guys in the end. I believe this is the same kind of thinking that mislead the Jews when they were looking for a Messiah - Christ didn't fit their idea of what a Messiah was supposed to look like.

2. You are dualistic in your thinking: God is good, no matter what. Humans and the Devil are bad no matter what. God gets to pick whoever He chooses - as long as they say some magic words like "Jesus forgive my sins" and torture and punish (without teaching) anyone He chooses.

3. You revel in being right and mocking and scoffing and directing condescending language to whoever doesn't agree with your interpretation of the Bible (of course, you do not call it your interpretation - you call it what "is clearly stated in scripture).

I reject your punitive, dualistic, and self-righteous view of God.

 

[aspen]

-- Semantics. "that we would be tortured by Him for eternity for not obeying Him" is misleading and inaccurate.
Original sin sealed their fate. He was showing what they needed to do to avoid what was their fate, brought on by the actions of Adam and Eve.
Jesus gave his body to be broken and slain in order to pay the price for the sins that could cause them to go to hell.
He did the hard part. He was simply warning of the downside for not accepting His love.

I do not deny that He did the hard part or that we needed Him to die for us. I reject your idea that God is punitive. Jesus taught in parables to promote thinking - he was trying to teach perspective taking skills to a community that believed there was only one right answer and lots of of wrong answers. He was rejected because He rejected the status quo - He was not looking for the one right answer and He was not teaching it either. He was hardly promoting a God who was waiting to reward people for having the right answers and punishing those who didn't.

 

[TexUs]

In fact, the Bible doesn't even bother saying that God cannot sin, but we know He cannot.

"In fact", huh? Leave it up to a Catholic to make up what is and isn't in the Bible:
James 1:13, "For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"

Of course, I never said that we did not rebel against God

You even make up your own quotes. Yes, you did say that.
"The only difference between our understanding of repentance is that you seem to believe that God is taking our rebellion personally - as if He cannot believe how much His children spite Him and therefore is justified in beating and torturing us for being so disobedient. I refuse to believe this"

If you want to believe that God is petty

You're calling righteous judgement: petty?

So He is both moral and immoral?

You're calling righteous judgement: immoral?

It sounds to me like from you point of view God can do whatever He wants

Um... Yes.
Is anyone else seeing these statements????

<snip>

And you finish out your entire post with a complete and total lack of any scriptural proof that God won't punish sin.
What are the wages of sin?

 

[aspen]

"In fact", huh? Leave it up to a Catholic to make up what is and isn't in the Bible:
James 1:13, "For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone"


I was going to use that verse, but since it did not say that God cannot sin explicitly, I figured you would come up with some way to reject it.


You even make up your own quotes. Yes, you did say that.
"The only difference between our understanding of repentance is that you seem to believe that God is taking our rebellion personally - as if He cannot believe how much His children spite Him and therefore is justified in beating and torturing us for being so disobedient. I refuse to believe this"


Thanks for reprinting the quote - nowhere in that quote do I deny that we rebelled against God. The underlined portion of the sentence is saying that we both believe that humanity rebelled - the only difference is you seem to think God is taking it personally.


You're calling righteous judgement: petty?


It would be called petty if a teacher punished a child for disobedience by torturing them for eternity. How much greater is God to us than a teacher is to a child?


You're calling righteous judgement: immoral?


I am calling torturing your enemies for eternity an immoral act - Jesus called it murder when we even think about killing our enemies. It was God who set down the ground rules about loving our neighbors as ourselves - not me - anything less is immoral.


Um... Yes.
Is anyone else seeing these statements????


So you actually believe that God can behave anyway He wants to and still be called good and moral? Even when He breaks His own rules of morality? That is simply crazy.


And you finish out your entire post with a complete and total lack of any scriptural proof that God won't punish sin.
What are the wages of sin?

Death, I said we are in trouble, We are going to die and we must respond to Christ to be saved. But God is saving us, not rewarding us with salvation.

 

[Thankful 1]

(Romans 9:17-21) “For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common”



(Matthew 18:2-3) “ He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.</SPAN>”



People your human logic is not going to let you understand God. I read your last post any cried for you all.



Please stop using your minds in trying to find God. Your hearts will lead your minds. Let the Holy Spirit teach you.



Pray that Jesus will call you out by name, and then you can truly follow him.

 

[TexUs]

Thanks for reprinting the quote - nowhere in that quote do I deny that we rebelled against God. The underlined portion of the sentence is saying that we both believe that humanity rebelled - the only difference is you seem to think God is taking it personally.

So we rebelled against God. And he just doesn't care?

It would be called petty if a teacher punished a child for disobedience by torturing them for eternity. How much greater is God to us than a teacher is to a child?

The difference is that God sets his own rules and it doesn't matter weather or not you approve of them.

I am calling torturing your enemies for eternity an immoral act

Sorry if you don't agree with a Biblical principle.
"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

So you actually believe that God can behave anyway He wants to and still be called good and moral?

Yes. He never breaks his own rules of morality, however.
But we know ANYTHING he does is good and righteousnesses due to the teaching in James.
Part of this is following his law and giving DEATH to those who earned it. If he didn't, he would not follow his law and he would NOT be a moral God.

Death, I said we are in trouble, We are going to die and we must respond to Christ to be saved. But God is saving us, not rewarding us with salvation.

Does he just "let us die" or is Scripture abundantly clear he's doing the judging? How do you look at these and not conclude God judges?
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts
God gave them over to shameful lusts.
so God gave them over to a depraved mind
Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
trouble and distress for every human being who does evil
the day when God judges people’s secrets
That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not!
and the whole world held accountable to God

 

[aspen]

So we rebelled against God. And he just doesn't care?

Did I say that? You really are not into nuances are you? You paint with a broad brush indeed. God is either unhinged in His righteous wrath or He doesn't even care one bit.


God wants to be in relationship with us. He wants use to be whole humans again - with the full ability to give and receive love. This is why He died for us so that we can be justified and sanctified and prepared for Heaven. Those who do not take Him up on His offer to be redeemed are going to Hell - it will be terrible, but a mercy because they will not subjected to the agony of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God. Isaiah couldn't take it until he was purified by coal from an angel.

The difference is that God sets his own rules and it doesn't matter weather or not you approve of them.

It is not about my approval, of course. It is about being above the law. God is subject to His own law. If He was not He would be immoral. I am sorry you cannot see this fact - it is plain as day to me. To believe otherwise is to accept immoral behavior from a man-made image of God, while pretending to call Him good. Here is the larger problem - everyone who has not been indoctrinated into this farce can see it as plainly as I can and the illogic of the mental gymnastic necessary to navigate all double standards laid out before us seems ridiculous. Why should we have to work so hard to turn a blind eye towards God in order to maintain His reputation as a Good God, when it is obvious (based on your view of Him) that He can commit any sin that He feels like committing - especially if the ends justify His means?


Sorry if you don't agree with a Biblical principle.
"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."


On the contrary, I totally agree with those verses - anyone who creates a false image of God may be guilty of blasphemy. Also, Judgment is going to be quite frightening to the unredeemed - there is little doubt about it. I never said that Hell will be fun. Notice that the Judgment is included in the fearful expectation.


Yes. He never breaks his own rules of morality, however.


So after all this, you admit it??

But we know ANYTHING he does is good and righteousnesses due to the teaching in James.


Yes, and that is my point. My entire point is that God is not immoral and He follows all His own laws and everything He does is on the merciful end of the scale. You are the person that is claiming that God can do whatever He wants - including breaking His own rules.

Part of this is following his law and giving DEATH to those who earned it. If he didn't, he would not follow his law and he would NOT be a moral God.

Death? Hell is eternal. There is no death - an unredeemed heart lives forever in Hell.



Does he just "let us die" or is Scripture abundantly clear he's doing the judging? How do you look at these and not conclude God judges?


I called it the Judgment. He is the Judge - He is the person who declares reality, which the unredeemed, who do not know Him or themselves at all, need to hear. My view takes nothing away from His role as the Judge.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts
God gave them over to shameful lusts.
so God gave them over to a depraved mind
Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.


And they will too - finally.

you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

I am being redeemed by Jesus.

for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
trouble and distress for every human being who does evil

For everyone who is unredeemed.

the day when God judges people’s secrets
That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not!
and the whole world held accountable to God


It is not a matter of God being Just in His wrath - the fact is, the redeemed friends of Christ and children of God are going to Heaven, and the unredeemed are going to Hell - they are lost, there will be nothing more that can be done for them.

 

[TexUs]

God wants to be in relationship with us. He wants use to be whole humans again - with the full ability to give and receive love. This is why He died for us so that we can be justified and sanctified and prepared for Heaven. Those who do not take Him up on His offer to be redeemed are going to Hell - it will be terrible, but a mercy because they will not subjected to the agony of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God. Isaiah couldn't take it until he was purified by coal from an angel.

Who do you think created Hell?

God is subject to His own law. If He was not He would be immoral. I am sorry you cannot see this fact - it is plain as day to me

Huh? I've been saying this by the start.
His own law ordains death and eternal condemnation for sinners. AKA, punishment. THIS is the part you refuse to look at. For him to not punish he would be immoral.

You are the person that is claiming that God can do whatever He wants - including breaking His own rules.

No, I'm not.
Again, part of "his own rules" is dealing out death and destruction to sinners.

I wonder how that'd work out in preventing crime around the world if the judges aren't able to deal out punishments. I wonder why I should even be a Christian if I am never punished for anything I do.




Now that you've actually looked at Scripture it seems you're backtracking a bit.
Do you or do you not believe that God will deal his wrath and punishment out on those not in Christ?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Ah so does this 'basic training' help us overlook all the immoral, petty, hateful characteristics of God, while condemning the same behavior in people? No thanks - if this is your image of God, I want no part of it. I know the character of the true God of the OT and the NT.

[/color]

It will ground you in the truth and remove your present citizenship from Hell if you can learn to believe. Your view of God is not the fruit of a Christian, it is that of a lost man.

 

[Foreigner]

"Those who do not take Him up on His offer to be redeemed are going to Hell - it will be terrible, but a mercy because they will not subjected to the agony of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God. Isaiah couldn't take it until he was purified by coal from an angel." - aspen




-- Still peddling this? I have already shown this to be untrue via Matthew 25.



"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' - Matt 25: 41-45



-- Sooooo....

Here are the "unredeemed" having a conversation with the "Holy God" about when they would have seen Him hungry, sick, in prison, etc. etc. etc.

I shall repeat because you have avoided addressing this at least twice so far: A give-and-take conversation between the "unredeemed" and THE "Holy God" is documented in Scripture.

It certainly does not indicate "agony" other than the possible realization that they will not be with him in Heaven.

The real pain starts when they are thrown in Lake of Fire.
Terrible physical agony combined with the emotional pain of knowing you are seperated for all eternity from Jesus. Throw in the fact that this could have been avoided and you have the "agony" that you were referring to.





As far as your reference to Isaiah and the placing of the coal on his lips, Isaiah 6:5 says, "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."

There is NOTHING in that scripture or that chapter to indicate that the "ruined" he is speaking of is in any way at all WORSE than what would be encountered in hell. That is simply an assumption on your part.

There is also more than one take on this scripture.

I was at a funeral mass at St. Mary's Cathedral in Fargo, ND when the priest (incorrectly) used this story in Isaiah to parallel what is going to happen to the gentleman when he stands before God and "is made whole again."

The other was at a Winter retreat at a Lutheran facility where the pastors there were in universal agreement that Isaiah was saying "Woe is me!" because he felt that he would shortly be judged and found wanting. Thus the "I am ruined." It was the pain of the eternal loss he would suffer once God passed judgement, not the fact that he was in God's presence at that time.

They were just as wrong as the you and the Catholic priest.

 

[aspen]

Who do you think created Hell?

The Bible does not tell us who created Hell. I believe Hell is a condition of the heart and a gathering of the unredeemed.

Huh? I've been saying this by the start.
His own law ordains death and eternal condemnation for sinners. AKA, punishment. THIS is the part you refuse to look at. For him to not punish he would be immoral.

Really? Would you spank an infant? No one in their right mind would because infants do not understand our concept of right and wrong. In fact, any child under the age of four has no concept of perspective taking skills - so if you see a child under four pinch another child and you decide to 'teach the child a lesson' by pinching the offender. The child is incapable of making the connection - they will see it as a separate event. How much more is the gulf between human understanding of morality and God's? Our understanding of good and evil is primitive and therefore, a god who punishes us for failing to understand is akin to spanking an infant.

The only other way to explain what will happen to unredeemed humans is to view sin as a sickness. Jesus told us that He came for the sick - and so that all humans no longer had to walk in darkness. Sin is a condition - a fatal condition, which, if left untreated, will separate us from the Body of Christ. Fearing the 'place' were the unredeemed will end up is sort of like fearing the deathbed rather than death, itself. Jesus warned us about the condition and offered a cure.

Once more, huh?
You previously said "I am calling torturing your enemies for eternity an immoral act". And now you agree that he will do that.



Nice eye roll - really brings home the condescension and punctuates the lack of human respect you have for my thoughts.

You are simply interpreting God's intentions as vengeful and vindictive. I believe some of people who wrote the Bible expressed them in the same way, but Jesus did not. I think there have been many people who fail to see the contradiction in God's character this viewpoint causes.

No, I'm not.
Again, part of "his own rules" is dealing out death and destruction to sinners.

Let me put this another way - let's say that we got to Heaven and someone asked God why the Holocaust happened - what went wrong God? And God responds "I was angry at the rebellion of the Jews and decided to teach them a lesson - nothing went wrong - it was my divine will." I have a pretty good idea that you would accept that answer because anything God does automatically makes it moral and acceptable. I would conclude that somehow I had been duped into worshiping the wrong god and ask to leave because it would be immoral for me to spend eternity with a demigod.

So you disagree with the Bible when it says the penalty for sins is death?

Nope. The penalty for cancer and AIDS is death, as well.

But I think you are splitting hairs on terminology here. What is life? Is eternal separation from God in fire to be considered LIFE, or is it closer to death? I think that's all Paul means... Life is living in the grace of God, when that is removed, all there is is death. Without the light, there is just darkness.

Yeah, I see your point.

So he's a judge that never punishes?
I wonder how that'd work out in preventing crime around the world if the judges aren't able to deal out punishments. I wonder why I should even be a Christian if I am never punished for anything I do.

The ability to punishment is not what defines a judge. Jesus is the only righteous Judge - He will be the person to determine who is healthy and who is sick, based on the condition of are heart.


Now that you've actually looked at Scripture it seems you're backtracking a bit.
Do you or do you not believe that God will deal his wrath and punishment out on those not in Christ?

Once again, sin is sickness. I am reconciling what I know about God's character and scripture. As a Protestant, I used to try and fit God's character into scripture because I was told that scripture is the highest authority. I am now Catholic and I believe that scripture and sacred Tradition are authorities, which teach us about the true character of God and therefore everything about them must reflect His true character.

It will ground you in the truth and remove your present citizenship from Hell if you can learn to believe. Your view of God is not the fruit of a Christian, it is that of a lost man.

Really? So you have decided that because I do not agree with your immoral vision of God, I must be a citizen of Hell? I will pray for you because you have actually exceeded the violation warned about by Jesus

 

[aspen]

"Those who do not take Him up on His offer to be redeemed are going to Hell - it will be terrible, but a mercy because they will not subjected to the agony of being unredeemed in the presence of a Holy God. Isaiah couldn't take it until he was purified by coal from an angel." - aspen


-- Still peddling this? I have already shown this to be untrue via Matthew 25.

Nice......

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me. "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' - Matt 25: 41-45

Yep. The unredeemed are sick and blind. You are adding the angry, wrathful intention to this verse. God could just as easily be kindly showing them to the door.


-- Sooooo....

Here are the "unredeemed" having a conversation with the "Holy God" about when they would have seen Him hungry, sick, in prison, etc. etc. etc.

I shall repeat because you have avoided addressing this at least twice so far: A give-and-take conversation between the "unredeemed" and THE "Holy God" is documented in Scripture.

Of course, you are not mentioning why I have refused to address this issue in the past. Let's review - I decided not to address it because your post was rude and condescending and I was clear about this. I have the freedom to ignore rude demands online.

It certainly does not indicate "agony" other than the possible realization that they will not be with him in Heaven.

It doesn't exclude it either. The fact is, none of the words communicate emotion at all. You are choosing to place the emotion of anger and wrath on God and willful defiance on the people. I choose to place compassion and mercy on God and terror and agony on the people.

The real pain starts when they are thrown in Lake of Fire.
Terrible physical agony combined with the emotional pain of knowing you are seperated for all eternity from Jesus. Throw in the fact that this could have been avoided and you have the "agony" that you were referring to.


I agree - Hell is going to be terrible, but it will be a mercy.


As far as your reference to Isaiah and the placing of the coal on his lips, Isaiah 6:5 says, "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."

There is NOTHING in that scripture or that chapter to indicate that the "ruined" he is speaking of is in any way at all WORSE than what would be encountered in hell. That is simply an assumption on your part.


But what was the result? Was Isaiah able to be in God's presence without assistance? Neither will the unredeemed, yet they will be able to exist in Hell. Point made.

 

[TexUs]

The Bible does not tell us who created Hell. I believe Hell is a condition of the heart and a gathering of the unredeemed.

Please, step up your argument. You can't even keep your own statements straight, "I agree with Luke 16:22. Hell is a place for the unredeemed after day. The place called Hell is not important"
Even though Luke 16:22 CLEAR AS DAY paints a picture of hell as something you GO TO after death: you still maintain this nonsense.


Here's another one. Matthew 25:41. "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Hmm so hell IS a created place.


So now that you've wasted time maintaining yet another severely flawed doctrine I will ask yet again: Who created hell?

Really? Would you spank an infant?

More drivel contrary to Scripture.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


Wait... But you just made an argument that people don't know right and wrong so they have an excuse... But the Bible states the opposite. I'm shocked-... but not really.

You are simply interpreting God's intentions as vengeful and vindictive. I believe some of people who wrote the Bible expressed them in the same way, but Jesus did not. I think there have been many people who fail to see the contradiction in God's character this viewpoint causes.

You avoided the blatant contradiction in your own words yet again.
You say, "God is not immoral", "God punishing people for eternity is immoral" and then you admit he does punish people for eternity.
So make your mind up. Either God is immoral, or punishing people for eternity is moral and right! Which is it?

Let me put this another way - let's say that we got to Heaven and someone asked God why the Holocaust happened - what went wrong God? And God responds "I was angry at the rebellion of the Jews and decided to teach them a lesson - nothing went wrong - it was my divine will." I have a pretty good idea that you would accept that answer because anything God does automatically makes it moral and acceptable. I would conclude that somehow I had been duped into worshiping the wrong god and ask to leave because it would be immoral for me to spend eternity with a demigod.

And how would you consider the judgement on the Jews (assuming this is true) any different than Noah's flood or Sodom?

The ability to punishment is not what defines a judge. Jesus is the only righteous Judge - He will be the person to determine who is healthy and who is sick, based on the condition of are heart.

You didn't answer the question.
So he judges who is sick. Then what? His judgement has no point?

Once again, sin is sickness. I am reconciling what I know about God's character and scripture. As a Protestant, I used to try and fit God's character into scripture because I was told that scripture is the highest authority. I am now Catholic and I believe that scripture and sacred Tradition are authorities, which teach us about the true character of God and therefore everything about them must reflect His true character.

How did this answer my question? Answer: It didn't.
"Do you or do you not believe that God will deal his wrath and punishment out on those not in Christ?"