Who Really Are The 144,000?
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Would you like to discuss the OT prophets? Or do you prefer to just continue to make disparaging remarks without basis?
Much love!
Wow! I didn't see you there when I was doing all my studying! Make up whatever scenario you like, paint me with whatever brush you choose, none of that is a Scriptural argument, but it lets me know your lack of confidence in your view. You have no idea about me, you shouldn't pretend as though you do.
Much love!
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OK, you can discuss this with "them", who ever "they" are.
What a bunch of nonsense!
Much love!
You had said it was a clearly worded earth location, what is that clear wording that tells you this?
Much love!
Keraz
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The first three verses of Revelation 7:1-3, all describe an earthly location for what follows. There is no change of location in that Chapter.
Also; from many other Prophesies, it is clear that God's holy people are on earth during the end times. They are conquered by the 'beast' - Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-7
Revelation 7:1-17 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Where is this throne? Where is this Lamb?
Revelation 4:1-2 KJV
1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Much love!
Keraz
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In Revelation 7, Gods Throne is seen on earth.
In Revelation 4:2, the Throne of God is seen by John in heaven.
Are you capable of understanding these are 2 separate events?
When did it move?
I'm saying the text tells us exactly where God's throne will be, that being in heaven. Where does it say differently?
Much love!
On this I'd say yes I am capable. These are plainly two records of 2 occurrances, with both saying where it takes place, those places being the same.
Much love!
Keraz
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Revelation 7 never mentions heaven. You add that.
That Gods Throne can be seen on earth is proved, by Ezekiel and Stephen.
It also fits the truth of how in the end times, Gods holy peoples will be living in the holy Land.
Keraz
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God’s Holy People in the Last Days:
Isaiah 62:1-12... ..They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord.
Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.
Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.
Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1-2
Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.
The Covenant here, is the one between God and His people, for their protection.
The treaty, the 7 year peace agreement of Daniel 9:27, is between the Leader of the One World Govt, and the leaders of the Christian nation of Beulah. It will be broken by the leader of the OWG after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 11:31
These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would like to think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.
As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17
The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20
We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.
That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.
What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.
Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!
For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc, are made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!
There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think ‘escape all these things’, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]
Isaiah 62:1-12... ..They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord.
Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.
Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.
Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1-2
Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.
The Covenant here, is the one between God and His people, for their protection.
The treaty, the 7 year peace agreement of Daniel 9:27, is between the Leader of the One World Govt, and the leaders of the Christian nation of Beulah. It will be broken by the leader of the OWG after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 11:31
These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would like to think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.
As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17
The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20
We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.
That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.
What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.
Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!
For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc, are made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!
There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think ‘escape all these things’, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]
There is no change from chapter 4. God's throne is at that time in heaven. No addition, no subtraction, if anything, you would be adding that God's throne moved when there is no talk of that.
After Jesus returns to the earth, after Jesus regathers Israel to the promised land, then He will sit on His throne on the earth.
If you follow the context in the Revelation, this throne is in heaven, where John said it was. If you think it moved, I'd ask, when, why? And what is the Scriptural authority that tells us this? It would have to be pretty particular to answer this particular question, I'd think.
Steven saw in a vision, as did John. As did Ezekiel. I think Ezekiel is different from the other two, who reported the throne in heaven. Ezekiel reported God in His throne on the earth, though also that He left. And in this case, His movements are told us by the prophet. I propose the same is true of John in his vision.
Much love!
I wonder how delighted the denizens of darkness are at the derision some Christians have for other Christians. Just wondering.
Much love!
As I have already shown you per God's Word...
Zech 14:7-9
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV
That "it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD" is about what Lord Jesus said that no man knows the day or hour of His coming, but The Father only.
That "in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem" is about the return of GOD's RIVER of Genesis 2 that flowed out of His Garden of Eden to feed four other rivers upon this earth. It is the RIVER that flows out from His Throne from the future Millennial temple on earth that Jesus will build when He returns, and will reign from, on earth.
That "the LORD shall be king over all the earth" is about Christ's future literal reign over all nations and kingdoms on earth when He returns on the last day of this world.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It's very easy to know when someone that claims to know their Bible hasn't really studied The Old Testament Books, especially the prophets, but just scanned them.
2 Peter 3:1-3
1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
ESV
I still meet some Christian brethren that had never even read Zechariah 14 that details the very events of the day of Christ's future coming, and into His Millennial reign!
It's easy to tell that you aren't that familiar with the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. Even the Zechariah 14 events of Christ's future coming you can't understand.
Yes, I understand YHWH - Jesus - is coming to the earth to rule. However, you are not placing that in the vision as John wrote it down. In his vision, his context is plainly given. Unless you have something that shows the context is changed - in that vision - we need to accept it as it's given.
Much love!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
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