Who Really Are The 144,000?

[marks]

Davy says: "An error which the pre-trib rapture theory does with Revelation is trying to treat all the Seals as separate timed events, and then all the Trumpets as separate time events, and then all the Vials as separate timed events. No, the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials happen in parallel. This is why events of Christ's coming and His Wrath upon the wicked is shown in all three sets of Signs."

Pay attention here @marks @The Light @rebuilder 454

Revelation is written in code which comprises literal, symbolic and parabolic

I'm not really interested in this thread, thanks! I have no question about who these people are. They are exactly who God said they are.

We can either believe the words written, or not believe them. When someone doesn't believe the Word of God, they will very often come up with something that they feel they can believe, along with an explanation of why they should not believe the words written, and why they should believe something that was not written.

This topic is a perfect example of that.

Is there any one of us who disputes that the wording is, "12,000 from the tribe of Judah"? Does anyone dipute that 12,000 is an ordinal number? Does anyone dispute that Israel began with 12 tribes including Judah? Yet many dispute that this actually speaks of 12,000 Jewish men from that certain tribe. Why?

Why insist it doesn't mean what it says? Why not believe it?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Great. No problem here. It's when you take the written Word of God and dream up the answer that you want to hear instead of JUST ACCEPTING WHAT IS WRITTEN, that there's a problem.

Start Here = "Immediately after the tribulation of those days......"

Accept His Words = "Immediately after the tribulation of those days....."

It is written Here = "the dead in Christ rise First, AFTER THAT we who are alive will be caught UP"

Believe just as it is written

 

[The Light]

I'm not really interested in this thread, thanks! I have no question about who these people are. They are exactly who God said they are.

Much love!

Wait a minute. What about the puzzle? We need to solve the problem of who the 144,000 from 12 tribes that will be redeemed from the earth as first fruits are. They could be the Church but then I would have to explain away the 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4 and the kings and priests of Revelation 5. I guess I could just ignore those chapters. Maybe those 144,000 could represent all of Israel. I think this is a good choice. I mean it's clever enough. The Lord seemed to go out of His way and give up plenty of information. One line of thought might be all this information means what it says or even better, we have plenty of clues to solve this mystery. I think I've got it. The 144,000 are the two witnesses. If you take 144,000 and divide it by 72,000 you get 2 for the 2 witnesses. 72,000 is made of 7 which is the perfect number and two thousand which is years. So this puzzle is solved.

 

[marks]

Wait a minute. What about the puzzle? We need to solve the problem of who the 144,000 from 12 tribes that will be redeemed from the earth as first fruits are. They could be the Church but then I would have to explain away the 24 elders with crowns in Revelation 4 and the kings and priests of Revelation 5. I guess I could just ignore those chapters. Maybe those 144,000 could represent all of Israel. I think this is a good choice. I mean it's clever enough. The Lord seemed to go out of His way and give up plenty of information. One line of thought might be all this information means what it says or even better, we have plenty of clues to solve this mystery. I think I've got it. The 144,000 are the two witnesses. If you take 144,000 and divide it by 72,000 you get 2 for the 2 witnesses. 72,000 is made of 7 which is the perfect number and two thousand which is years. So this puzzle is solved.

Interestingly, the sealing of the 144,000 names them as "the servants of God", that is, it's inclusive, these are "the servants of God" on the earth at that time. We know they are on the earth because the angels are delayed from their harm of the earth until these were sealed.

So at this point in time there are only 144,000 servants of God, but then, in a pattern repeated throughout, John describes the earthly scene, and then describes the heavenly scene. And at this time in heaven there is an innumerable crowd from all nations. Hm.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I'm not really interested in this thread, thanks! I have no question about who these people are. They are exactly who God said they are.

We can either believe the words written, or not believe them. When someone doesn't believe the Word of God, they will very often come up with something that they feel they can believe, along with an explanation of why they should not believe the words written, and why they should believe something that was not written.

This topic is a perfect example of that.

Is there any one of us who disputes that the wording is, "12,000 from the tribe of Judah"? Does anyone dipute that 12,000 is an ordinal number? Does anyone dispute that Israel began with 12 tribes including Judah? Yet many dispute that this actually speaks of 12,000 Jewish men from that certain tribe. Why?

Why insist it doesn't mean what it says? Why not believe it?

And if that part doesn't mean what it says - I'm not talking about someone's idea of a "code" (where is the key?), then how you are so sure other parts don't mean what they also say?

Much love!

The actual POINT of the division in Rev.7 between Israel and Gentiles is something that brethren who only stay in The New Testament won't recognize.

In the Old Testament Books, especially like in Isaiah, the children of Israel are pointed to separately from Gentiles, even when both inherit together. Here's a strange version of that, but one only need to think about it a bit...

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV

In Ephesians 2, Apostle Paul speaking to believing Gentiles, he used the label "commonwealth of Israel" for Christ's Church, because those Gentiles had come "nigh" into the covenants and promises first given to Israel. That is how God's Israel will manifest in the holy lands once Lord Jesus returns. The 'ethnos' will have their kings and priests too. At the end of Isaiah 19, God even said that Assyria, Israel, and Egypt will each be one third in His future Kingdom in the holy lands.

Thus in Revelation 7, the whole Chapter is about the SEALING of God's servants in prep for the time of the end, the "great tribulation". The first group mentioned is about the literal SEED of the children of Israel that are in Christ, 12,000 specifically out of each those 12 tribes mentioned there (two tribes are not mentioned). The "great multitude" represents the SEALED of the Gentiles in Christ.

Revelation 9 about those SEALED with God's SEAL and those who are not, is also important to that Revelation 7 SEALING. It shows those SEALED with God's SEAL will NOT be subjected to the sting of the locusts. And that stinging involves deception by Christ's enemies. This serves as yet ANOTHER PROOF that the "great multitude" are ALSO SEALED, and go through the "great tribulation", because that is especially what the SEALING in the end times is for, to prevent from being deceived by Christ's enemies and the coming false-Christ.

So the reason why the devil does NOT want brethren to understand about the 144,000 being literal seed of the children of Israel, is because if those ONLY are the one SEALED in prep for the end, then WHERE'S THE BELIEVING GENTILES? And we well know that a secret rapture of ONLY Gentiles is nowhere... written in God's Word! Yet that is exactly one of the 'unspoken' ideas the false prophets that work for Satan try to plant in some Churches today.

Thus the 144,000 of the children of Israel being SEALED is literal. And so the "great multitude" of Gentiles are also SEALED, but is simply inferred.

What exactly is that SEALING with GOD's SEAL?...

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

 

[The Light]

Interestingly, the sealing of the 144,000 names them as "the servants of God", that is, it's inclusive, these are "the servants of God" on the earth at that time. We know they are on the earth because the angels are delayed from their harm of the earth until these were sealed.

So at this point in time there are only 144,000 servants of God, but then, in a pattern repeated throughout, John describes the earthly scene, and then describes the heavenly scene. And at this time in heaven there is an innumerable crowd from all nations. Hm.

Much love!

The great multitude is made of the dead in Christ that are raptured. The alive and raptured believers that remained. The 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. Those raptured that are killed in the great tribulation and those of the seed of the woman that are alive when the days are cut short. This second harvest occurs at the 6th seal before wrath.

 

[marks]

The great multitude is made of the dead in Christ that are raptured. The alive and raptured believers that remained. The 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. Those raptured that are killed in the great tribulation and those of the seed of the woman that are alive when the days are cut short. This second harvest occurs at the 6th seal before wrath.

I see this being the multitude in heaven is the raptured church, while the 144,000 are the firstfruits of Israel.

I see the 144,000 being translated into heaven at the middle of the 70th week.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

Thus in Revelation 7, the whole Chapter is about the SEALING of God's servants in prep for the time of the end, the "great tribulation".

Most think that the 144,000 are sealed to go through the wrath of God. Totally incorrect. The 144,000 are sealed early in the 7 seven seals, long before the 6th seal. We know this because the 5th seal is the great tribulation and in Rev 14 we see the 144,000 in heaven redeemed from the earth before this verse.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is the great tribulation which proves that the 144,000 are in heaven before the great tribulation.

 

[The Light]

So the reason why the devil does NOT want brethren to understand about the 144,000 being literal seed of the children of Israel, is because if those ONLY are the one SEALED in prep for the end, then WHERE'S THE BELIEVING GENTILES? And we well know that a secret rapture of ONLY Gentiles is nowhere...

Or He is coming at a time that you think not. Could that be possible?

written in God's Word! Yet that is exactly one of the 'unspoken' ideas the false prophets that work for Satan try to plant in some Churches today.

Thus the 144,000 of the children of Israel being SEALED is literal. And so the "great multitude" of Gentiles are also SEALED, but is simply inferred.

What exactly is that SEALING with GOD's SEAL?...

2 Cor 1:21-22
21 Now He Which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

Eph 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

The Church will be in heaven as the 1st harvest. That is why there are 144,000 FIRST FRUITS of the second harvest.

 

[marks]

In Ephesians 2, Apostle Paul speaking to believing Gentiles, he used the label "commonwealth of Israel" for Christ's Church, because those Gentiles had come "nigh" into the covenants and promises first given to Israel.

I don't think this is correct.

Ephesians 2:11-18 KJV
11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

This isn't access to God's covenent with Israel at Mt. Horeb, it's about having access to God Himself.

"he used the label "commonwealth of Israel" for Christ's Church,"

He uses this to designate Israel as a political entity, a nation of which you were a citizen of or not. You were either in or out, and only those who were "in" could come to God.

The point isn't that you weren't part of Isreal, the poins is that you couldn't come to God because you weren't a part of Israel. Now you can come to God, not because you "become Israel", but because of Christ having come to bring a better way.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

I see this being the multitude in heaven is the raptured church, while the 144,000 are the firstfruits of Israel.

I see the 144,000 being translated into heaven at the middle of the 70th week.

Much love!

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest shown here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

It is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The great multitude includes the previously raptured Church plus the 144,000 first fruits plus those gathered from the earth at the 6th seal.

I agree that the 144,000 are translated at the middle of the week which is BEFORE the great tribulation, WHICH IS THE 5TH SEAL.

 

[marks]

Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest shown here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

It is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The great multitude includes the previously raptured Church plus the 144,000 first fruits plus those gathered from the earth at the 6th seal.

I agree that the 144,000 are translated at the middle of the week which is BEFORE the great tribulation, WHICH IS THE 5TH SEAL.

For myself, I see the seals opened, Then the trumpets sounded, Then the bowls outpoured, Then Jesus returns. He first regathers Israel to the promised land, then gathers the nations to be judged.

Much love!

 

[Keraz]

John describes the earthly scene, and then describes the heavenly scene. And at this time in heaven there is an innumerable crowd from all nations.

This supposition of the great multitude being in heaven, is wrong, as Revelation 7:1-14 is a clearly worded earthly location.
Only those with the false rapture to heaven belief, make this mistake.

The great multitude is made of the dead in Christ that are raptured

What nonsense. The dead in Christ lay in their graves until they stand before God in the final Judgment. Rev 20:11-15, John 11:23-24

 

[MatthewG]

Even though there was a separation of the southern kingdom and the northern kingdom.

Would it not make sense that the human beings had freewill, and that during the time when John was baptizing in the Jordan all 12 tribes were there, and there was people whom all conjoined together there in Jerusalem, especially when they had the festival at the temple mount of Mount Mariah? If 1,000,000 Jews died, and some taken off as prisoners in the destruction of Israel. Surely, 144,000 were those predestined and kept to be the bride of christ which were the firstfruits, were taken and changed in the twinkling of the eye. Just because the firstfruits got taken first, doesn't mean today we aren't the 21st century fruits, and one day will go on to be in the kingdom of God leaving this life.

Remember the Kingdom of God comes without observation, as Jesus said. It is in the heart, and that is why the circumcision of the heart is what matters today, being moved by the spirit.

People have to think for themselves and choose for themselves what they will believe, never believe me, I could be wrong.

All the best,
Matthew

 

[marks]

This supposition of the great multitude being in heaven, is wrong, as Revelation 7:1-14 is a clearly worded earthly location.

Why do you think this?

Revelation 7:9-17 KJV
9) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 4:1-2 KJV
1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Much love!

 

[Keraz]

Why do you think this?

Because God's Throne can be anywhere and everywhere, Stephen and Ezekiel saw it while they were on earth.
Even Revelation 7:15-17 is on earth; the new heavens and earth. Parallel prophecy in; Revelation 21:4

 

[quietthinker]

Who Really Are The 144,000?​

Those selected to fill the last available spaces in the housing crisis experienced in heaven which is reflected here on Earth?
or is it a rounding off of the 139, 999? Perhaps they only had so many white horses up there or the stretched fiscal policy didn't allow for more white uniforms?
...... jokes aside, it's the figurative number of all the saved

 

[Davy]

I don't think this is correct.

Ephesians 2:11-18 KJV
11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

This isn't access to God's covenent with Israel at Mt. Horeb, it's about having access to God Himself.

"he used the label "commonwealth of Israel" for Christ's Church,"

He uses this to designate Israel as a political entity, a nation of which you were a citizen of or not. You were either in or out, and only those who were "in" could come to God.

The point isn't that you weren't part of Isreal, the poins is that you couldn't come to God because you weren't a part of Israel. Now you can come to God, not because you "become Israel", but because of Christ having come to bring a better way.

Much love!

Are you a Dispensationalist, a follower of Darby's false Pre-trib Rapture Theory??

It would make sense that you are, because many Jews fail to understand how The New Covenant is a 'change' from the old covenant, and that believing Gentiles and believing Israelites are BOTH together under The New Covenant, which continues God's blessings and promises originally to the seed of Israel.

Dispensationalism instead goes AGAINST what Apostle Paul said there in Ephesians 2 to those believing Gentiles, and it is EASY to tell you do also, even when you quoted the very Ephesians 2 evidence of BOTH believing Israel and believing Gentiles being joined as one under Christ Jesus!!

 

[Davy]

For myself, I see the seals opened, Then the trumpets sounded, Then the bowls outpoured, Then Jesus returns. He first regathers Israel to the promised land, then gathers the nations to be judged.

Much love!

That's what the Pre-trib Rapture doctors have taught you, which is not how the 'events' in the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are written.

Just the FACT that the day of Christ's coming and pouring out of His Wrath upon the earth is found in the SEALS, and in the TRUMPETS, and in the VIALS, ought to reveal something to you. (6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial).

How then, can all the SEALS happen first, when the 6th Seal includes description of Christ's coming and the time of His Wrath?

How then, can all the TRUMPETS happen next, when the 7th Trumpet describes the day of Christ's future coming and taking reign over all kingdoms on earth? I mean, the VIALS haven't happened yet in YOUR theory, right?

Then how could the VIALS still be left for last when it also shows the beast kingdom still at work on earth until the very last 7th VIAL, which reveals Christ's coming yet again?!?

Because you don't know these simple things is because you are not putting your trust in God's Word, but trust in men's doctrines instead.

 

[Davy]

Why do you think this?

Revelation 7:16-17 KJV
16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Those "living fountains of waters" ought to be one of the strongest clues to you, IF... you had studied your Old Testament prophets. And Peter told the Church to be mindful of the words of the Old Testament prophets.

Zech 14:7-8
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
KJV

That Zechariah 14 chapter covers the day of the Lord when Jesus comes and brings all His saints with Him to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, and begins His future reign over all nations.

It will be at that time, after His future return to earth, when those "living waters shall go out from Jerusalem". The Ezekiel 47 chapter specifically shows those "living waters" flowing out from under the Millennial sanctuary in that future time. ALL OF THAT HAPPENS ON THIS EARTH.


You have been fed lies by the followers of Satan's servants that created the false pre-trib rapture theory. They hope you don't take the time to actually heed all of God's Word, including those parts of Scripture I quoted from the Old Testament about the future events ON EARTH when Jesus returns ON EARTH. They instead push lies of a living up in the clouds existence above the earth, which is not written.

The Heavenly dimension is going to be revealed to everyone alive, on the day of Christ's coming, including the wicked. All eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds (Rev.1). Thus the time-space reality is going to change when Jesus returns, both heaven and earth revealed in the same time-space.