Who was Job's accuser?

[pia]

And there's that faith that I find so beautiful.

 

[bbyrd009]

And there's that faith that I find so beautiful.

enough to get anyone out of Egypt (slavery) indeed, yes. But this Magic Teleporter to the Promised Land, who can find it?

 

[jimd]

I would not call it magic but isn't it that same faith? Who so ever will.

 

[bbyrd009]

I would not call it magic but isn't it that same faith? Who so ever will.

there's that pesky ol' "will" again, huh, right there in the middle of a salvation statement that i guess hyper-gracers just salivate over or whatever. And then there's a "may" after that!

magic = faith, ya, i have already witnessed hospital operations deemed "miracles," so why not i guess.

 

[jimd]

there's that pesky ol' "will" again, huh, right there in the middle of a salvation statement that i guess hyper-gracers just salivate over or whatever. And then there's a "may" after that!

magic = faith, ya, i have already witnessed hospital operations deemed "miracles," so why not i guess.

Don't see anything pesky about will or may, Bill and Sue maybe. Never heard of hyper-gracers. haven't witnessed any operations. Guess I have lived a sheltered life

 

[jimd]

there's that pesky ol' "will" again, huh, right there in the middle of a salvation statement that i guess hyper-gracers just salivate over or whatever. And then there's a "may" after that!

magic = faith, ya, i have already witnessed hospital operations deemed "miracles," so why not i guess.

By "will" I suppose you are referring to predestination? Many things are predestined but individual salvation is not one of them, if it were, it would be laying on God something ungodly. "May" is simply letting us know "will" is a determining factor. Hospital "miracles" and magic depend on what your definition of miracle and magic is but not really.

 

[bbyrd009]

By "will" I suppose you are referring to predestination?

hmm, i had in mind "will, to do" more than predestination, iow a precursor of works or deeds.

 

[jimd]

hmm, i had in mind "will, to do" more than predestination, iow a precursor of works or deeds.

I still fail to see what is pesky about will.

 

[bbyrd009]

I still fail to see what is pesky about will.

yet debates rage about whether we even have a will at all, yes? And a popular perspective now seems to be that assuming we do, professing "i believe in Jesus" is an act of the will; when i don't see it being. (still addressing the "faith/magic" connection here)

 

[bbyrd009]

enough to get anyone out of Egypt (slavery) indeed, yes. But this Magic Teleporter to the Promised Land, who can find it?

I would not call it magic but isn't it that same faith? Who so ever will.

Whosoever will better go get themselves a tent imo lol, even if i also completely agree with you that faith will, seemingly magically, get one to the Promised Land, yes.

 

[jimd]

yet debates rage about whether we even have a will at all, yes? And a popular perspective now seems to be that assuming we do, professing "i believe in Jesus" is an act of the will; when i don't see it being. (still addressing the "faith/magic" connection here)

I did not know there is a debate about will, but am not surprised. Why do you not see believing as an act of the will? Would function be a better word? Am not getting your faith/magic connection, to me faith is not magic.

 

[bbyrd009]

I did not know there is a debate about will, but am not surprised.

not sure how true this is, but it seems to have been renewed lately, and seems to connect to the hyper-grace movement.

Why do you not see believing as an act of the will?

because will to me implies an end result that believing does not manifest. Having a belief will surely influence one's will, but changing a belief requires no will at all; often times it may even run counter to our will.

Would function be a better word?

hmm. in reflecting upon the function of a particular belief, imo it would, yes, but then we don't generally consider our beliefs in those terms, right. Beliefs are generally held to be inviolate, "truths" iow, even though we are quick enough to identify what are to us "false" beliefs in another believer; we personally never have any "false beliefs" of our own, right. Just beliefs that we have outgrown, matured out of? Lol

Am not getting your faith/magic connection, to me faith is not magic.

well, to a lot of people it is, though, and even if the word "magic" is laden with...a certain symbology that makes it...what, abhorrent, i guess, to associate with "faith" on one hand, there are nonetheless many apparent parallels, even if they are mostly counterfeits imo. Faith moves mountains, etc. Of course faith is supposed to regenerate the inner man, whereas magic is generally considered to be an outer action, that culminates in something one can see with their eyes, right.

So iow faith gets turned into magic, when we expect it to literally move "a mountain."
"We" there invariably being someone who identifies as a Jew, or a Gentile, right?
of course it would be...um, nonsense to understand "there are none who consider themselves to be Jew or Gentile even in the kingdom" (very mildly paraphrased) literally i guess.

 

[jimd]

not sure how true this is, but it seems to have been renewed lately, and seems to connect to the hyper-grace movement.

I will take your word for that.

because will to me implies an end result that believing does not manifest. Having a belief will surely influence one's will, but changing a belief requires no will at all; often times it may even run counter to our will.

According to scripture true belief/faith implies an end result, in-deed it does

hmm. in reflecting upon the function of a particular belief, imo it would, yes, but then we don't generally consider our beliefs in those terms, right.

I suppose most do not.

Beliefs are generally held to be inviolate, "truths" iow, even though we are quick enough to identify what are to us "false" beliefs in another believer; we personally never have any "false beliefs" of our own, right. Just beliefs that we have outgrown, matured out of? Lol

I don't generally equate opinions with saving faith.

well, to a lot of people it is, though, and even if the word "magic" is laden with...a certain symbology that makes it...what, abhorrent, i guess, to associate with "faith" on one hand, there are nonetheless many apparent parallels, even if they are mostly counterfeits imo. Faith moves mountains, etc. Of course faith is supposed to regenerate the inner man, whereas magic is generally considered to be an outer action, that culminates in something one can see with their eyes, right.

So iow faith gets turned into magic, when we expect it to literally move "a mountain."
"We" there invariably being someone who identifies as a Jew, or a Gentile, right?
of course it would be...um, nonsense to understand "there are none who consider themselves to be Jew or Gentile even in the kingdom" (very mildly paraphrased) literally i guess.

Faith moves mountains is obviously a figure of speech, or hyperbolic meaning faith accomplishes great things. I am not getting your point on Jew and Gentile.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am not getting your point on Jew and Gentile.

"There are no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom." Why not take this literally iow, and expect that as soon as someone identifies as Jew or Gentile, for instance "I am a Presbyterian," they have essentially stated that they are not a part of the kingdom, just like the passage says? Of course this will not serve our perspectives, right, so we don't do this, but i gotta tell ya this is not a bad way to perceive people who seek to identify with an exclusive group, at all. When someone says "well, i am a Jew," take them at their word, iow; there are no Jews in the kingdom. If you feel compelled to identify as a Jew, maybe something in that is keeping you from the kingdom.

 

[jimd]

"There are no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom." Why not take this literally iow, and expect that as soon as someone identifies as Jew or Gentile, for instance "I am a Presbyterian," they have essentially stated that they are not a part of the kingdom, just like the passage says? Of course this will not serve our perspectives, right, so we don't do this, but i gotta tell ya this is not a bad way to perceive people who seek to identify with an exclusive group, at all. When someone says "well, i am a Jew," take them at their word, iow; there are no Jews in the kingdom. If you feel compelled to identify as a Jew, maybe something in that is keeping you from the kingdom.

I will let God sort that out.

 

[bbyrd009]

Faith moves mountains is obviously a figure of speech, or hyperbolic meaning faith accomplishes great things.

i certainly agree; but the mountain here is what is between us and the Promised Land, see; at least in my mind, lol. I could restate the analogy if that is objectionable for some reason, but i think it's valid enough.

I would not call it magic but isn't it that same faith? Who so ever will.

Whosoever will may come, yes. But not "whosoever will may overcome," unfortunately.

Anyway, i have strictly been playing DA here, and you have been a good sport! I have been trying to get at how "conviction" or "i am convinced" does not = "truth," even though we characterize our beliefs as truth, but other beliefs that we do not share as "lies." It is a difficult subject.

 

[jimd]

i certainly agree; but the mountain here is what is between us and the Promised Land, see; at least in my mind, lol.

Why do you insist on maintaining faith being a mountain? He said His burden and yoke is easy and light. You are not one of those who thinks they must maintain perfection on your own are you? Hyper workers

I could restate the analogy if that is objectionable for some reason, but i think it's valid enough.
Whosoever will may come, yes. But not "whosoever will may overcome," unfortunately.

Did you leave out the word not here? As long as we will come to Him in faith He promised He will never let us go. How much better guarantee do you need?

Anyway, i have strictly been playing DA here, and you have been a good sport! I have been trying to get at how "conviction" or "i am convinced" does not = "truth," even though we characterize our beliefs as truth, but other beliefs that we do not share as "lies." It is a difficult subject.

I think you could be mixing up opinions with faith, otherwise I don't know what you are getting at.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why do you insist on maintaining faith being a mountain?

well i don't, but to reply to your intent here, because "having faith" does not = overcoming, essentially.

Believing Jesus did it all does not = picking up your cross and following.

There is a dichotomy in "My yoke is easy" and "Count the cost."

pick one

 

[bbyrd009]

He said His burden and yoke is easy and light. You are not one of those who thinks they must maintain perfection on your own are you? Hyper workers

ham good one. No, that would be another extreme imo, and my best word here is that nothing is really hard to do, when one starts trying to do it. As a matter of fact most people get really uncomfortable doing nothing for any amount of time. I'm trying to adroitly tie that in with "if you can't be happy with nothing, you won't be happy with anything," which is imo a corollary to that, but i agree with you that the cure is surely not to do more, but rather to desire...less.

Or at least to examine how it is our desires that lead to our works; all of them. Every single work begins as a desire. I think.

 

[bbyrd009]

Did you leave out the word not here? As long as we will come to Him in faith He promised He will never let us go. How much better guarantee do you need?

who gets to define "faith" there? what do you mean by faith here?