Who was sacrificed Jesus the human, or the spirit being who came to earth to become Jesus?

[MarriedCouple]

Jesus was parallel on heaven, while was on earth. His true form was always in heaven, never left it, while his mortal body was on earth.
Here is the verse: John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[keithr]

Exclamation marks do not make it true.

Just writing "One [being] in two different places does not make them two persons" doesn't make that true either.

Genesis 3:24

So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.​

Thta says God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden; it doesn't say that God drove mankind out of the presence of God.

Moses said in Moab, Deuteronomy 29:10 (WEB):

(10) All of you stand today in the presence of Yahweh your God; your heads, your tribes, your elders, and your officers, even all the men of Israel,​

God certainly didn't drive the Israelites away at Mount Sinai, Exodus 19 (WEB):

(9) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I come to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.” Moses told the words of the people to Yahweh.​

(10) Yahweh said to Moses, “Go to the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments,​

(11) and be ready against the third day; for on the third day Yahweh will come down in the sight of all the people on Mount Sinai.​

 

[ScottA]

Thankfully Jesus explains the oneness in just a few chapters later, so we do not have to second guess what he meant by that Scott. Jesus said: (John 17:20-22) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

It is that same unity that God meant to be in marriage as well: (Genesis 2:24) . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Two different individuals that are one in unity


I gather you do not know the significance Scott. Jesus did not always sit at Jehovah's right hand, he was exulted to that position after presenting his sacrifice when he returned to heaven. Sitting at the Father's right hand signifies position sir, Jehovah gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth Mat 28:18. He was in the #2 spot, subjected only to Jehovah, likely where the term right hand man originated. 1 Cor 11:3

It also signified a period of wait as well, he would sit at the Father's right hand until he would be enthroned as King at the end of the times of the Gentiles. Mat 22:44

​

So what do you understand those verses to mean sir?

(John 17:20-22) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.​

This is the unfolding of the One and all who are of Him, as Eve was of Adam being here own person in the world, but not according to God.​

​

(Genesis 2:24) . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.​

​

This is showing the intention of God to refold what has first been unfolded, that the man of sin should first be revealed. Then comes the end.​

​

(Matthew 28:18) 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.​

This shows God taking back control over all of what He has separated from Himself, the refolding of what had been unfolded unto Satan for the revealing of the man of sin. Which marks the time as "It is finished" for "all these things."​

​

(1 Corinthians 11:3) 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.​

This is an update of the process of refolding that which was first unfolded, that it would continue as planned.​

​

​

(Matthew 22:44) 44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?​

This shows the Father separating Jesus from Himself as He had also done with Eve from Adam, that is, until all would be all in God.​

 

[Bob Estey]

ha well not sure i understand it either, Bob
but i guess im asking why Yah would say
I said “you are Elohim,”
and how that fits into the picture

What Bible verse are you referring to?

 

[bbyrd009]

What Bible verse are you referring to?

Psalms 82:6 , also Quoted by Jesus

 

[Bob Estey]

Psalms 82:6 , also Quoted by Jesus

[6] I say, "You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
[7] nevertheless, you shall die like men,
and fall like any prince."

We are being called gods. That seems a little strange to me, but that seems to be what God is saying. Even so, God is THE God.

 

[keithr]

Genesis 2:21-22​

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.​

This was your answer to where in the Bible does it say:

Eve was in the world as her own person, but according to God was only a part of Adam

However, the verses you quote don't confirm God declaring that Eve "was only a part of Adam". It simply says, "Yahweh God made a woman from the rib which he had taken from the man, and brought her to the man". The rib was a part of Adam, but the woman that God created wasn't part of Adam - she was a new creation, physically different from Adam. At best God used the genetic material to form a woman, but He didn't need to do that. God used part of Adam's flesh so that Eve could be considered one flesh with Adam, enabling Jesus' sacrifice in Adam's place to justify God resurrecting Eve as well as Adam - so that Jesus could be the saviour of ALL mankind.

In the next verse we have Adam saying, “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She will be called ‘woman,’ because she was taken out of Man.” So neither God nor Adam said that Eve was "only a part of Adam". Eve was no more part of Adam than any person is part of their mother (and father) - we are all genetically derived from our parents but we are individuals, unique creations of God. (Psalms 139:13, "For you formed my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother’s womb"; Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”).

Moses commented in the next verse, "Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother, and will join with his wife, and they will be one flesh". It is declaring that the relation of a man to his wife is closer than that to his father and mother. It is asserting the sanctity of marriage.

Mark 10:2-9 (WEB):

(2) Pharisees came to him testing him, and asked him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”​

(3) He answered, “What did Moses command you?”​

(4) They said, “Moses allowed a certificate of divorce to be written, and to divorce her.”​

(5) But Jesus said to them, “For your hardness of heart, he wrote you this commandment.​

(6) But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.​

(7) For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will join to his wife,​

(8) and the two will become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh.​

(9) What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”​

 

[keithr]

Jesus was parallel on heaven, while was on earth. His true form was always in heaven, never left it, while his mortal body was on earth.
Here is the verse: John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Cambridge Bible notes says:

which is in heaven] These words are omitted in the best MSS. If they are retained, the meaning is ‘Whose proper home is heaven.’ Or the Greek participle may be the imperfect tense (comp. Joh_6:62, Joh_9:25, Joh_17:5), which was in heaven before the Incarnation.​

Many modern translations more correctly translate the verse, e.g. :

ESV: No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
TLV: No one has gone up into heaven except the One who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.
GNB: And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.
NIV: No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
AMP: No one has gone up into heaven, but there is One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man [Himself—whose home is in heaven].
etc.

 

[ScottA]

well, i guess you might not necessarily find a direct one, but could have derived it indirectly…just dont see how, for that one

If you are referring to Jesus and God (the Father) being one "being" (for lack of a better term), Jesus was created as a man, according to this example:

Genesis 2:21-22​

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.​

The example is that of one (Adam) being one who became two, after which the two became one flesh, but two persons. The main point is they were one, weren't, and then were again. That is the example, and the pattern given in the scriptures. Jesus then came along as the last Adam, and declared that "what is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit", adding then that one must also be born [again] of the spirit of God. From previous scripture we also know that when one dies the flesh returns to the dust (earth) and the spirit to God who gave it. It was also declared from the beginning that "each is according to its kind", meaning that the example of Adam and Eve and those born of Eve and her "kind" should not be considered the same as those born of God and His "kind."

Incidentally, that is where science looses the number of "ribs" argument, as what is written of Adam and Eve is not true of those born of Eve, for she did not come out of God but out of Adam. Thus, by her "kind" all of mankind to follow for the most part have the same number of ribs.

But not to get off track--the point is it all begins and ends with One. God is One. And what was true of mankind being "two that become one flesh", was just an example not exactly depicted correctly as with Adam and Eve--because her children were her's and not God's.

 

[ScottA]

Just writing "One [being] in two different places does not make them two persons" doesn't make that true either.

It is if it is in accord with God, and it is.

Thta says God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden; it doesn't say that God drove mankind out of the presence of God.

Moses said in Moab, Deuteronomy 29:10 (WEB):

(10) All of you stand today in the presence of Yahweh your God; your heads, your tribes, your elders, and your officers, even all the men of Israel,
God certainly didn't drive the Israelites away at Mount Sinai, Exodus 19 (WEB):

(9) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I come to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.” Moses told the words of the people to Yahweh.(10) Yahweh said to Moses, “Go to the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments,(11) and be ready against the third day; for on the third day Yahweh will come down in the sight of all the people on Mount Sinai.

Semantics. The Garden of Eden is the paradise of God from which He "drove" them out.

 

[ScottA]

This was your answer to where in the Bible does it say:

However, the verses you quote don't confirm God declaring that Eve "was only a part of Adam". It simply says, "Yahweh God made a woman from the rib which he had taken from the man, and brought her to the man". The rib was a part of Adam, but the woman that God created wasn't part of Adam - she was a new creation, physically different from Adam. At best God used the genetic material to form a woman, but He didn't need to do that. God used part of Adam's flesh so that Eve could be considered one flesh with Adam, enabling Jesus' sacrifice in Adam's place to justify God resurrecting Eve as well as Adam - so that Jesus could be the saviour of ALL mankind.

In the next verse we have Adam saying, “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She will be called ‘woman,’ because she was taken out of Man.” So neither God nor Adam said that Eve was "only a part of Adam". Eve was no more part of Adam than any person is part of their mother (and father) - we are all genetically derived from our parents but we are individuals, unique creations of God. (Psalms 139:13, "For you formed my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother’s womb"; Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you”).

Moses commented in the next verse, "Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother, and will join with his wife, and they will be one flesh". It is declaring that the relation of a man to his wife is closer than that to his father and mother. It is asserting the sanctity of marriage.

Mark 10:2-9 (WEB):

(2) Pharisees came to him testing him, and asked him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”​

(3) He answered, “What did Moses command you?”​

(4) They said, “Moses allowed a certificate of divorce to be written, and to divorce her.”​

(5) But Jesus said to them, “For your hardness of heart, he wrote you this commandment.​

(6) But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female.​

(7) For this cause a man will leave his father and mother, and will join to his wife,​

(8) and the two will become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh.​

(9) What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”​

Semantics.

God was defining the makeup of His creation by "kind", wherein He clarified that Adam was "created", Eve was taken out of Adam, and in that way "male and female He created them." Then having separated them, He also established how they were to become "one flesh" again--not two individuals, but "one flesh." But what did He say..."They are one flesh?" No, but rather "the two shall become one flesh." Which was not done at that time--but was a prophecy that did not come until Christ said, "take, eat, this is my body broken for you", making His church His body--that is "the two" as "one flesh." This was and is the marriage which was prophesied from the beginning and by example (as "a light unto the gentiles") "till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made."

Thus, the "kind" of Eve were one kind (male and female) without a Husband until Christ came. Even so, the example of the one becoming two and then one again, applies--not as being two individuals as the kind of Eve, but being One after the One and His kind.

 

[MarriedCouple]

The Cambridge Bible notes says:

which is in heaven] These words are omitted in the best MSS. If they are retained, the meaning is ‘Whose proper home is heaven.’ Or the Greek participle may be the imperfect tense (comp. Joh_6:62, Joh_9:25, Joh_17:5), which was in heaven before the Incarnation.​

Many modern translations more correctly translate the verse, e.g. :

ESV: No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
TLV: No one has gone up into heaven except the One who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.
GNB: And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.
NIV: No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
AMP: No one has gone up into heaven, but there is One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man [Himself—whose home is in heaven].
etc.

That is incorrect!

 

[keithr]

Semantics. The Garden of Eden is the paradise of God from which He "drove" them out.

It was a garden (park) that God planted for Adam to live in (Genesis 2:8,15). It wasn't where God lived. God would occasionally visit and walk with Adam and Eve, so only then were they in His presence. God drove them out of the garden because:

Genesis 3 (WEB):

(22) Yahweh God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever—”​

(23) Therefore Yahweh God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.​

Nevertheless, God did not competely abandon mankind. The verses I quoted showed that some experienced the presence of God at times. You were suggesting that all men, including Jesus, have been seperated from God, but God has worked though many people and was certainly working through Jesus, and God was with him (Acts 10:38).

 

[keithr]

That is incorrect!

Well explained. That convinces me (not!).

 

[Robert Gwin]

Hello Robert, I thought I might share these views of commentary: John 4:24 Commentaries: "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Love, Walter

I asked you sir, not a website. What is your take on it?

 

[Robert Gwin]

It seems self-explanatory to me. I can't think of a better way to say it. God is spirit. We must worship him in spirit and truth.

That is exactly correct, but much more can be learned from it, for instance who said it, so then was the one saying it speaking about himself, or about someone else. Does that verse indicate that God would accept someone worshipping Him with Scriptural untruths?

 

[Robert Gwin]

​

(John 17:20-22) 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.​

This is the unfolding of the One and all who are of Him, as Eve was of Adam being here own person in the world, but not according to God.​

​

(Genesis 2:24) . . .That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.​

​

This is showing the intention of God to refold what has first been unfolded, that the man of sin should first be revealed. Then comes the end.​

​

(Matthew 28:18) 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.​

This shows God taking back control over all of what He has separated from Himself, the refolding of what had been unfolded unto Satan for the revealing of the man of sin. Which marks the time as "It is finished" for "all these things."​

​

(1 Corinthians 11:3) 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.​

This is an update of the process of refolding that which was first unfolded, that it would continue as planned.​

​

​

(Matthew 22:44) 44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?​

This shows the Father separating Jesus from Himself as He had also done with Eve from Adam, that is, until all would be all in God.​

There you go Scott, straight from the Bible my friend. Sometimes all it takes is guidance sir.

 

[Bob Estey]

That is exactly correct, but much more can be learned from it, for instance who said it, so then was the one saying it speaking about himself, or about someone else. Does that verse indicate that God would accept someone worshipping Him with Scriptural untruths?

I don't know if this answers your first question, but here is how I look at it: God is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, like my dad was simultaneously a father, husband, son, lawyer, etc. As a Son, Jesus, he wanted to set an example for us. Therefore, he couldn't call himself God, because he didn't want us calling ourselves God. So, yes, he was speaking about himself.

As for your second question, I would say no.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

I asked you sir, not a website. What is your take on it?

I gave you an answer, but you did not accept it, Robert.

Walter

 

[marks]

It seems that many think Jesus returned to heaven as Jesus, rather than the being he was that was selected for the assignment. Most agree that Jesus existed as a spirit being prior to becoming a human, so when he came and gave his flesh and blood to redeem us from what Adam lost, is it not logical that he went back to who he was before he came? So who was sacrificed, God's spirit son who became a human, or the human who came?

If you think it was the spirit being, then how can it be an equal sacrifice, since that being had to lower himself to become a human? Phil 2:7

Your question is lacking, I think.

Don't you mean to ask,

Who died on the cross, and rose again from the dead? Jesus? Or Micheal the Archangel, who portrayed Jesus until his death, then intermittently portrays Jesus to convince the disciples of a lie? (that Jesus had physically resurrected)

Is this more what you are talking about?

Much love!