Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

[Earburner]

I'm thinking we are not as far apart on things as I may have thought at first. But I do see some things differently. I'd like to discuss them, but I don't want to offend you in any way. I have to admit that I have been guilty of that with you, but I don't want to do it any more. I'll just try to tell you how I see things. If any of it is offensive, please let me know. With God's grace and help I'm confidant we can work it out. I don't want to elevate myself above anybody.

Although I've quoted 1 Cor 8:6 many times now, it has a context, namely the entire chapter. If you want to know what I'm thinking about our conversation, give it a read. It is the heart I try to have. I often fall short, but God forgives me (1 John1:8) and I start over.

I'll compose my thoughts on the "us" in Gen 1:26 and angels and get back to you.

I would say that the KJV - (TR-Greek text) 1 Cor. 8:5-6 says it quite succinctly with
Heb. 10:19-20.

1 Cor. 8[5] For there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords.
8[6] But to us one God, the Father,  FROM whom are all things, and we  TO him,

and one Lord Jesus Christ,  THROUGH whom are all things, and we  THROUGH him.

Heb. 10
[19] Having therefore, brethren, entered into the entrance of the saints in the blood of Jesus
[20] who opened a NEW** way for us and LIVED through the VEIL of his [own] flesh 10:21 and [became] high priest in the house* of God [His immortal body].

Notes:
* In my Father's house [the house of God] are many mansions.

** God the Father, who is now dwelling within Jesus' immortal body/house, is now OUR NEW Heaven, and we ourselves are God's NEW Earth, for His dwelling within His Son, who is Himself the Living Veil between God the Father and man.

 

[Rich R]

So, Jesus is everything on your list, of which I totally agree,.

Genesis 1:26 does indeed say God was not alone when He created man, but in and of itself, there is no reason that it must be Jesus.

But who exactly is the "us?" I can't speak for everybody, but for many years I took the "us" to mean Juses. Reflecting back on those days I realize the only reason I thought that is because my Pastor told me that's what it meant. I had no other reason to believe that other than what I was taught by a man.

There is a record in Acts that I think changed much of the way I approached the doctrine I got from the Bible. In Acts 11 there is a record of Paul preaching to a group of people from the city of Berea. How these people accepted the things the great Apostle told them is very illuminating to anyone who wants to know the truth.

Acts 17:11-12,

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


They didn't believe anything Paul told them just because Paul told them. Instead they searched the scriptures for themselves to see if they agreed with what Paul told them. It was only after they saw something in the scriptures for themselves did they believe what Paul told them. Our culture is not the first one that subscibes to "fact checking."

Being honest with myself, I realized that I did no fact checking whatsoever about what my Pastor said about the "us" in Genesis 1:26. Unlike the Bereans I just accepted his word for it. I never considered the scriptures themselves may not have agreed with my Pastor on that point. That is until one day someone came along and said, "Maybe your Pastor is wrong. Might not it be a good idea to search the scriptures to see if they have something different to say about who the "us" is?" This guy assured me there was plenty of information from the scriptures as to who that "us" might be. I thought, "OK, I'll go Berean and search the scriptures to see if what my Pastor says is true or not." Here is what I came up with:

Job 1:6,

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

So we see there was some beings called the "sons of God" who were with Yahweh. Who were these "sons of God" I wondered. Well I could have asked my Pastor but that would put me right back wehere I started, accepting the word of a man without my own verification from the actual scriptures. That meant I had to see if the scirptures themselves might help me to learn who these sons of God were. So I looked to see if the "sons of God" are mentioned somewhere else in the Bible, somewhere that might help me nail down who they were. But one thing I did see was that God was not alone, that He had other beings around Him, Satan being just one of them. "Well, that's interesting" I thought.

The first two places the phrase "sons of God" is used is found in Genesis 6:2 and 6:4. Neither of those places really helped me though. Lot's of men have different ideas who those "sons of God" were in those verses, but from the verses themselves, I found no definitive answer. All I gahtered from those verses is that they were somebody who took the "daughers of men" for wives. Beyond that I still was not sure who the "sons of God" were. Again, I could have asked my Paster and just accept what he said, but that would go against the lesson of the Bereans in Acts 17.

Reading further in Job I finally found something that would really help me understand who the "sons of God" might be.

Job 38:4-7,

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Verse 7 says that the "sons of God" were with God when He created the world. As such they could not refer to people since people weren't around when God laid the foundation of the world. People came after God laid the foundation of the world.

I doubt there is a Christian around who would doubt the existance of various spiritual beings that God created, angels being the most well known, but there are others, such as cheribum, seraphim, archangels, and others. Each type has a specific function assigned to them by God. For example, cheribums are seen to be guardians as shown in Genesis 3:24. There are several records of angels acting as messengers from God to various people. The angel you mentioned that has a "secret" sent to Manoah in Judges is but one example. As a quick side note, the KJV translation of "secret" is not the best one. Most other English translations say "wonderful" or something to that effect and that can be verified by checking the meaning of the Hebrew word "paliy" which does in fact mean "wonderful" or "remarkable."

Without getting into it any deeper, I became convinced that these "sons of God," the spiritual beings with whom God actually conferred were the "us" from Genesis 1:26. They were the angels, the seraphim, the cherubim, etc whom God created before He created the world. It was to them that God said, "Let us make man in out own image."

Now I haven't exhausted everything the scriptures say about spiritual beings, nor do I expect you to believe everything I say any more than the Bereans just took Paul's word for what he told them. Instead I hope I inspired you to do your own research on the matter. Don't just believe me or your Pastor. Verify it for yourself from the scriptures.

This may help you get started: there is much written on the "divine council" on the internet. It's a good starting point, but if you're not going to believe me or your Pastor, I sure wouldn't believe everything Google says!. Nonetheless what a man tells you can be a good starting point to do your own work.

One day Phillip saw a man reading the scriptures and asked him if he understood what he was reading. The man's answer:

Acts 8:31,

And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

A guide is just that, a guide. Phillip was a guide and nothing more. He was not the final word. It was up to the man to take the start Phillip gave him, and finish the work for himself. In that reagard, reading the internet can be a guide, but like the Bereans, you still have to verigy everything for yourself from the actual scriptures. You have to do the heavy lifting so to speak.

 

[Rich R]

I would say that the KJV - (TR-Greek text) 1 Cor. 8:5-6 says it quite succinctly with
Heb. 10:19-20.

1 Cor. 8[5] For there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords.
8[6] But to us one God, the Father,  FROM whom are all things, and we  TO him,

and one Lord Jesus Christ,  THROUGH whom are all things, and we  THROUGH him.

Heb. 10
[19] Having therefore, brethren, entered into the entrance of the saints in the blood of Jesus
[20] who opened a NEW** way for us and LIVED through the VEIL of his [own] flesh 10:21 and [became] high priest in the house* of God [His immortal body].

Notes:
* In my Father's house [the house of God] are many mansions.

** God the Father, who is now dwelling within Jesus' immortal body/house, is now OUR NEW Heaven, and we ourselves are God's NEW Earth, for His dwelling within His Son, who is Himself the Living Veil between God the Father and man.

The word "through"is the Greek word "dia" and indicates agency.

A movie producer negotiates with an actor through that actor's agent. The agent is an intermediary between the actor and the producer. There are three parties here, the producer, the actor, and the agent. The agent and the producer are not the same person

1Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

​

We are the the men, God is the producer, and Jesus is the agent. Just like Hollywood, the agent, Jesus, is not the producer, God.

2Pet 1:3,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:​

​

We are the "us," life and godliness is what we get. But how do we get the life and godliness? Through knowledge. The knowledge is the intermediary. The knowledge is not the actual life and godliness. It is "through" the intermediary, the agent, (knowledge) that we that we get life and godliness.

"Throught," "dia" is always like that.

 

[Earburner]

Genesis 1:26 does indeed say God was not alone when He created man, but in and of itself, there is no reason that it must be Jesus.

But who exactly is the "us?" I can't speak for everybody, but for many years I took the "us" to mean Juses. Reflecting back on those days I realize the only reason I thought that is because my Pastor told me that's what it meant. I had no other reason to believe that other than what I was taught by a man.

There is a record in Acts that I think changed much of the way I approached the doctrine I got from the Bible. In Acts 11 there is a record of Paul preaching to a group of people from the city of Berea. How these people accepted the things the great Apostle told them is very illuminating to anyone who wants to know the truth.

Acts 17:11-12,

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.


They didn't believe anything Paul told them just because Paul told them. Instead they searched the scriptures for themselves to see if they agreed with what Paul told them. It was only after they saw something in the scriptures for themselves did they believe what Paul told them. Our culture is not the first one that subscibes to "fact checking."

Being honest with myself, I realized that I did no fact checking whatsoever about what my Pastor said about the "us" in Genesis 1:26. Unlike the Bereans I just accepted his word for it. I never considered the scriptures themselves may not have agreed with my Pastor on that point. That is until one day someone came along and said, "Maybe your Pastor is wrong. Might not it be a good idea to search the scriptures to see if they have something different to say about who the "us" is?" This guy assured me there was plenty of information from the scriptures as to who that "us" might be. I thought, "OK, I'll go Berean and search the scriptures to see if what my Pastor says is true or not." Here is what I came up with:

Job 1:6,

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

So we see there was some beings called the "sons of God" who were with Yahweh. Who were these "sons of God" I wondered. Well I could have asked my Pastor but that would put me right back wehere I started, accepting the word of a man without my own verification from the actual scriptures. That meant I had to see if the scirptures themselves might help me to learn who these sons of God were. So I looked to see if the "sons of God" are mentioned somewhere else in the Bible, somewhere that might help me nail down who they were. But one thing I did see was that God was not alone, that He had other beings around Him, Satan being just one of them. "Well, that's interesting" I thought.

The first two places the phrase "sons of God" is used is found in Genesis 6:2 and 6:4. Neither of those places really helped me though. Lot's of men have different ideas who those "sons of God" were in those verses, but from the verses themselves, I found no definitive answer. All I gahtered from those verses is that they were somebody who took the "daughers of men" for wives. Beyond that I still was not sure who the "sons of God" were. Again, I could have asked my Paster and just accept what he said, but that would go against the lesson of the Bereans in Acts 17.

Reading further in Job I finally found something that would really help me understand who the "sons of God" might be.

Job 38:4-7,

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Verse 7 says that the "sons of God" were with God when He created the world. As such they could not refer to people since people weren't around when God laid the foundation of the world. People came after God laid the foundation of the world.

I doubt there is a Christian around who would doubt the existance of various spiritual beings that God created, angels being the most well known, but there are others, such as cheribum, seraphim, archangels, and others. Each type has a specific function assigned to them by God. For example, cheribums are seen to be guardians as shown in Genesis 3:24. There are several records of angels acting as messengers from God to various people. The angel you mentioned that has a "secret" sent to Manoah in Judges is but one example. As a quick side note, the KJV translation of "secret" is not the best one. Most other English translations say "wonderful" or something to that effect and that can be verified by checking the meaning of the Hebrew word "paliy" which does in fact mean "wonderful" or "remarkable."

Without getting into it any deeper, I became convinced that these "sons of God," the spiritual beings with whom God actually conferred were the "us" from Genesis 1:26. They were the angels, the seraphim, the cherubim, etc whom God created before He created the world. It was to them that God said, "Let us make man in out own image."

Now I haven't exhausted everything the scriptures say about spiritual beings, nor do I expect you to believe everything I say any more than the Bereans just took Paul's word for what he told them. Instead I hope I inspired you to do your own research on the matter. Don't just believe me or your Pastor. Verify it for yourself from the scriptures.

This may help you get started: there is much written on the "divine council" on the internet. It's a good starting point, but if you're not going to believe me or your Pastor, I sure wouldn't believe everything Google says!. Nonetheless what a man tells you can be a good starting point to do your own work.

One day Phillip saw a man reading the scriptures and asked him if he understood what he was reading. The man's answer:

Acts 8:31,

And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

A guide is just that, a guide. Phillip was a guide and nothing more. He was not the final word. It was up to the man to take the start Phillip gave him, and finish the work for himself. In that reagard, reading the internet can be a guide, but like the Bereans, you still have to verigy everything for yourself from the actual scriptures. You have to do the heavy lifting so to speak.

I perceive and understand that the order of the angels, was created at sometime before God created planet earth. Therefore from God's perspective, the angels being His creation of spirit beings, it would be likely that He called them "sons". Not that they are male or female, but rather because they are His creation, being Himself who "Fathered" them.
However, even though the angels are spirit beings, having conditional eternal existence, and are extremely mighty, the Glory of God in their creation, did NOT grant or extend to them the ability to create life at any level.

Therefore, I can safely conclude that Jesus is the Eternal, Everlasting Son of God, "The Tree of LIFE [Eternal]" who is described by the LORD God as being the only member that HE called "us" in Gen. 1:26

 

[Earburner]

We are the "us," life and godliness is what we get. But how do we get the life and godliness? Through knowledge. The knowledge is the intermediary. The knowledge is not the actual life and godliness. It is "through" the intermediary, the agent, (knowledge) that we that we get life and godliness.

Actually, "we are the" New earth in which God the Father desires to dwell, with His Righteousness (KJV 2 Peter 3:13), not just temporarily as the Jews under the OC, but through Jesus, permanently now in our mortality, and then eternally in our immortality.
Edit: 2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this treasure in [our] earth-en vessels [bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Yes, knowledge is only the "intermediary", the medium, whereby the Spirit of God communicates His thoughts to us.
It is not our knowledge of Him that is the actual life and godliness, or that which secures us to Him, but rather the gift of His Spirit WITHIN us. KJV Rom. 8:8-9, Rev. 3:20, 1 John 5:12-13.
Zech.
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might [internal mental effort], nor by power [external religious persuasion], but [rather] by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[PinSeeker]

You yourself may not be the obstinate one I take it? No possibility of that? It has to be me? OK. Yep...we'll leave it there alright.



Well, let's see about that. There is:

1. God the Father
2. God the Son
3. God the Holy Spirit

I numbered the list for clarity.

Three in distinct personhood does not equal three in distinct substance. I've used this before, and it's a very limited analogy, but serves: A football team (say, the Green Bay Packers) consists of 53 persons at any given time, but still is only one football team. Well, 54, including the head coach... But it's still one team, working as one to achieve its goal and it's glory.

I count 3 Gods there.

Yeah, that's too bad. God is surely one, and we agree on that, but neither Christ (God's Word, proceeding from the Father) nor the Holy Spirit (God's power, proceeding from the Father and the Son) could have done what they did nor could do what they do now ~ Christ sits enthroned at the right hand of the Father and intercedes constantly on our behalf to the Father, and is present with us even now in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is at giving new birth to newly created Christians and working in us even now, conforming us to Christ ~ and not be one in essence with the Father. So, just a limited understanding (and willful blindness, as I said), and terribly so, and thus too bad.

Merely declaring three to be one doesn't do it. Of course we could introduce a bunch of extra-biblical terms in a vain attempt to make it "work" (substance, essence, persons, et. al.)...

It is what it is. Well... He is What/Who He is.

Certainly not anywhere I care to go.

You're certainly your own man.

If Jesus said he is the son of man and God said he isn't, I'll just leave it at that.

Interesting. Where do you think God said Christ is not the Son of Man? Surely you will acknowledge that Christ called Himself that, and we know that Jesus never lied, because He was without sin. Did God say anywhere that Jesus was mistaken? Or is that... something that someone told you, or you just, you know, decided for yourself?

Now I have a willful dose of blindness in addition to obstinance?

So it seems, yes.

I'll read anything you might have to say in reply, but that'll be that.

Very well. No worries.

God bless you Pinseaker.

Much the same to you, Rich!

You're a good man!

Invoking the words of Christ ~ which actually apply to me, rather than being a subtle chastisement for ascribing infinite goodness to anyone or anything perceived to be merely of humanity ~ why do you call me good? There is only One who is good... Thank you though; I know what you mean.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

I perceive and understand that the order of the angels, was created at sometime before God created planet earth. Therefore from God's perspective, the angels being His creation of spirit beings, it would be likely that He called them "sons". Not that they are male or female, but rather because they are His creation, being Himself who "Fathered" them.
However, even though the angels are spirit beings, having conditional eternal existence, and are extremely mighty, the Glory of God in their creation, did NOT grant or extend to them the ability to create life at any level.

Therefore, I can safely conclude that Jesus is the Eternal, Everlasting Son of God, "The Tree of LIFE [Eternal]" who is described by the LORD God as being the only member that HE called "us" in Gen. 1:26

Good point about why the various spirit beings are called sons of God. Seems simple enough.

I think that Gen 1:27 is relevant to our discussion.

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.​

​

The plural "us" in verse 26 is changed to the singular "his" in verse 27. That fits with what you said about only God can create.

There is another thing we should always consider when reading the Bible. The Bible was not written last year in New York of LA. It was written to a people who lived some 3,000 years ago in the Near East. That has rather huge implications. The people in the Ancient Near East (ANE) thought about their world in a much different way than we think about it. Take Genesis 1:1 for example.

Gen 1:1,

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.​

​

I think it fair to say that most Christians (I can at least speak for myself for many years) in the modern West form something like the following image in their minds:



But that isn't even close to what the ANE people, including the Jews, would have pictured. They would have seen it more like this:



This is very close to how all people in the ANE saw their world, and God saw no reason to change that image to communicate His message to Israel. At it's heart, Genesis is not really a story of how God created the material universe. The ANE people simply had no interest in the material universe. Their primary concern in life was how to please the gods so as to insure a relatively good life for themselves. Instead Genesis is about God's desire to dwell with man in a perfect land, i.e., Eden, how they could life a good life. There was no reason for God to explain the gravitational pull of the sun on the earth, so He didn't. He spoke in terms with which they area already familiar and it worked fine.

As I mentioned above, you will never find anything in the Bible about gravity, the movement of the earth around he sun, the big bang, the expanding universe, etc. But you will find such things as:

1 Sam 2:8,

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.​

​

Notice that the second image of the cosmos shows the land resting on pillars.

1Chr 16:30,

Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.​

​

In direct contradiction to a movable earth, God says it does not move. While contrary to our modern view (picture 1), God says it does not move (picture 2). Bible naysayers laugh at this, they say the Bible is stupid. Well, they may want to consider who is stupid and who isn't. The Bible is not a science book and was never meant to be one. It makes no attempt whatsoever to explain the material universe. Instead it is a religious book, and as I said above, it is meant to tell humans how to live in harmony with each other and with God. The actual physical composition of the universe is irrelevant to what God wanted to communicate. God just let the Jews think about the cosmos what they already thought. He saw no need to change that view, so He didn't.

What does that have to do with Genesis 1:26? Well, it has everything to do with Genesis 1:26. In the ANE it was taken for granted that there were many spiritual beings besides their main gods. And, as we've already discussed, God said that there were indeed a host of spiritual beings (angels, seraphim, cheribum, etc.) beside Himself.

Such and idea would have been foremost in an Israelite's mind when he or she read Genesis. On the other hand, they had basically no idea, if any at all, of Jesus at that time. The faintest hint of Jesus would not have come until Genesis 3:15, which was some time after Genesis 1:26. But even then, it would be very doubtful that they understood that the promised seed referred to Jesus. Surely not enough of an idea to override their deep belief in God's heavenly council being the "us" in Genesis 1:26.

To really understand much of the Bible, it really helps to try and ask yourself, not what do I, a modern Westerner see here, but what would someone steeped in ANE culture and cosmology see. It can make a huge difference and I believe it does with Genesis 1:26. I think they would see the "us" as referring to the spirit beings who lived with God. I think it highly unlikely, if not virtually impossible, for Jesus to pop up into their minds when reading that verse.

There is a field of Bible study called "Comparative Study." It basically looks at the customs, the cosmology (how the universe is made), the religious beliefs, and more of the people who lived in the Ancient Near East. That was the environment within which Israel existed and their basic world view as really no different from all the other peoples of that time. We can then read the scriptures from the point of view of the people to whom God actually gave those scriptures.

I've barely scratched the surface of this subject. I might suggest you google, "ancient near east and the bible" for more information. It's absolutely fascinating, and I know it will revolutionize how the Bible is understood to anyone who takes the time to do so. Anyone can understand it as God originally gave it to man, free from the modern Western filter that we have unfortunately adopted as the basis for our understanding of God. I've been on both sides of the fence, so I speak from experience.

 

[Rich R]

Interesting. Where do you think God said Christ is not the Son of Man? Surely you will acknowledge that Christ called Himself that, and we know that Jesus never lied, because He was without sin. Did God say anywhere that Jesus was mistaken? Or is that... something that someone told you, or you just, you know, decided for yourself?

Well, my self discipline seems to have failed yet again and here I am writing yet another post to you on the subject. "Oh wretched man that I am...."

But I'm only writing to correct a mistake I made regarding the son of man. I guess the way I wrote it was not what I meant to say. It was really a matter of a word I failed to capitalize, which shows how a simple capitalization can make a huge difference. Let me try again if you don't mind.

Here's what I originally wrote:

"If Jesus said he is the son of man and God said he isn't, I'll just leave it at that."​

​

That would clearly say the Jesus said he was the son of man and God said he isn't, which is quite un-scriptural as you pointed out. But what if I changed that small "h" to a Capital "H"? Well, that makes a big difference. The "He" now refers to God and not to Jesus as it does in the first mistaken version. Let me just quote scripture. God does not make the same mistakes as I too often make.

Num 23:19,

God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?​

​

So while Jesus is called both a man (1 Tim 1:25, Acts 2:22, et. al.), and the son of man (30 time in Matthew alone), Numbers says God is neither man nor the son of man. I won't share my conclusions about that, but it is in the scriptures.

Anyway, very good catch. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Rightly dividing God's word certainly leaves no room for slop of any kind. A simple period, comma, or even a capital letter can make a huge difference. Now I know the original texts made no difference between small and capital letters, but it does when we try to communicate the message in our own language.

 

[PinSeeker]

So while Jesus is called both a man (1 Tim 1:25, Acts 2:22, et. al.), and the son of man (30 time in Matthew alone), Numbers says God is neither man nor the son of man. I won't share my conclusions about that, but it is in the scriptures.

Jesus, when He calls Himself the Son of Man, is referring directly to what the prophet Daniel wrote of his vision in Daniel 7:9-14...

"As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool; His throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before Him; a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came One like a son of man, and He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."​

Jesus is like a son of man, and thus gives Himself the title of the Son of Man. Now, I realize you may even acknowledge this, and if so, you apparently soft-pedal it, and even vastly so. Indisputably, the Son of Man is a heavenly Person ~ a heavenly Person Who descends, in human vesture (our Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us... this is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:5-11), to this world, Whose principal role in His visitation to this earth is that of the heavenly judge. And then He returns to the presence of God in His ascension. We remember that Jesus says, “No one ascends to the Father except He Who has first descended from Him.” Some/many tend to think that Jesus’ calling Himself the Son of Man was an expression of humility, when, in fact, it was a claim to divine authority. When Christ Jesus heals on the Sabbath day and is rebuked by His enemies, He says, “I did this that you may know that the Son of the Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” And when He forgives sins and creates an uproar from His contemporaries, saying, “Only God has the authority to forgive sins,” Jesus says, “I did this that you might know that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” And again, and again, and again, you will ~ or at least should ~ begin to see that this title, “Son of Man” that Jesus uses for Himself, is a highly exalted title.

Rightly dividing God's word certainly leaves no room for slop of any kind.

Much agreed.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus, when He calls Himself the Son of Man, is referring directly to what the prophet Daniel wrote of his vision in Daniel 7:9-14...

"As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool; His throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before Him; a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came One like a son of man, and He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."​

Good verses. Too bad many of the Jews didn't recognize Jesus, their promised Messiah. I noticed that the dominion, the glory, and the kingdom promised to the son of man would be given to him. One might ask who gave it to him. Must have been somebody that had all of that before the son of man had it.

Jesus is like a son of man, and thus gives Himself the title of the Son of Man. Now, I realize you may even acknowledge this, and if so, you apparently soft-pedal it, and even vastly so.

Interesting conclusion. What if I put it in big red letters? Would that help convince you of how serious I take Jesus being the son of man?

Indisputably, the Son of Man is a heavenly Person ~ a heavenly Person Who descends, in human vesture (our Creator took on human vesture, accepted death and mortality, was tempted, betrayed, broken, and all for love of us... this is exactly what Paul says in Philippians 2:5-11), to this world, Whose principal role in His visitation to this earth is that of the heavenly judge. And then He returns to the presence of God in His ascension. We remember that Jesus says, “No one ascends to the Father except He Who has first descended from Him.”

All true, but I don't see where any of it makes Jesus anyone other than the son of God which is exactly what the scriptures declare some 36 times. None of that would preclude Jesus from being the son of God. We ought not to read anything into the scriptures that aren't there. For example, I don't recall Jesus being called a "heavenly person."

John 3:13,

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.​

​

I don't know the whole Bible with crystal clarity, this verse being but one example. But I did notice Jesus did use the past tense when he said he ascended to heaven. Well, he really didn't ascend until some time after he spoke those word. Then he goes on to say he is in heaven, the present tense. Somewhat enigmatic, hence my not being clear on exactly what it says.

I also notice Jesus refers to himself as the "son of man" whereas God is declared explicitly not to be the son of man (Num 23:19). Was Jesus not God when he said that? Is he only a part time God? As I said, I don't know. I'm just pointing out the obvious.

Some/many tend to think that Jesus’ calling Himself the Son of Man was an expression of humility, when, in fact, it was a claim to divine authority.

Yes, but where did he get that authority?

John 5:22,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:​

John 5:27,

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.​

​

When did God commit judgment to Jesus? When did He give him authority to judge? If Jesus had it from the beginning, as God Himself does, then it would have hardly been necessary to grant it to him. At some point in time Jesus was given something he apparently didn't have before it was given to him.

When Christ Jesus heals on the Sabbath day and is rebuked by His enemies, He says, “I did this that you may know that the Son of the Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” And when He forgives sins and creates an uproar from His contemporaries, saying, “Only God has the authority to forgive sins,”

Jesus never said, "Only God has the authority to forgive sins,"

Mark 2:6-7,

6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,​

​

7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?​

Luke 5:21,

And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?​

I don't think you want to build your faith and practice on what the scribes and Pharisees said.

Jesus says, “I did this that you might know that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” And again, and again, and again, you will ~ or at least should ~ begin to see that this title, “Son of Man” that Jesus uses for Himself, is a highly exalted title.

Yes, and as I showed above that authority was given to him. Nobody gives God authority for anything. He just has it and he can give it to others. Jesus even gave the same authority his apostles.

John 20:23,

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.​

 

[PinSeeker]

Good verses. Too bad many of the Jews didn't recognize Jesus, their promised Messiah. I noticed that the dominion, the glory, and the kingdom promised to the son of man would be given to him. One might ask who gave it to him. Must have been somebody that had all of that before the son of man had it.

Well, yes and no. Yes, of course, regarding His time on earth, as that only came about a bit over two thousand years ago, but no, as evidenced by the fact that, as you may or may not acknowledge but is true nonetheless, Jesus prays to the Father to restore to Him the glory He (Jesus) had with Him (the Father) "before the world existed," from all eternity... knowing full well that He (the Father) would do so (John 17:5).

Interesting conclusion. What if I put it in big red letters? Would that help convince you of how serious I take Jesus being the son of man?

How serious you take it is not really the issue.

All true, but I don't see where any of it makes Jesus anyone other than the son of God which is exactly what the scriptures declare some 36 times.

Right but this is not really the issue is, either. What you understand being the Son of God really is is the issue. I anticipate your incredulousness at that statement, and am not surprised, Even setting aside Him doing, both while hear on earth and now at the right hand of the Father, things that only God can possibly do ~ besides sharing in God's glory, which God is adamant that He will not do, share His glory with another, someone who is not God Himself ~ He cannot be the Son of God without being fully of God, and He cannot be the Son of Man without being fully of Man. So, He was and is fully both.

We ought not to read anything into the scriptures that aren't there.

Agreed.

John 3:13,

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.​

​

I don't know the whole Bible with crystal clarity, this verse being but one example. But I did notice Jesus did use the past tense when he said he ascended to heaven. Well, he really didn't ascend until some time after he spoke those word. Then he goes on to say he is in heaven, the present tense. Somewhat enigmatic, hence my not being clear on exactly what it says.

I also notice Jesus refers to himself as the "son of man" whereas God is declared explicitly not to be the son of man (Num 23:19). Was Jesus not God when he said that? Is he only a part time God? As I said, I don't know. I'm just pointing out the obvious.



Yes, but where did he get that authority?

Sure, Rich, nothing happens without the Father's say-so. No one here denies that (hopefully); I certainly don't. But the issue is not so much "where did He get it," but rather, "Why is He qualified to have it?"... and "How could He possibly wield it if He were not God Himself?" Both questions are rhetorical, really, more so the second that the first.

When did God commit judgment to Jesus? When did He give him authority to judge? If Jesus had it from the beginning, as God Himself does, then it would have hardly been necessary to grant it to him. At some point in time Jesus was given something he apparently didn't have before it was given to him.

This is all God's glory, which Jesus had with the Father from all eternity. John 17:5 is indisputable evidence of that, disagree (and deny) as you may.

Jesus never said, "Only God has the authority to forgive sins"

Mark 2:6-7,

6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?​

Luke 5:21,

And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?​

I don't think you want to build your faith and practice on what the scribes and Pharisees said.

LOL! The issue is Who Jesus was perceived to be ~ a mere man ~ by the Pharisees... their speaking without seeing, which puts you firmly in their camp, Rich.

We can forgive each other, of course, but that means nothing as far as justification, which only God can do. This justification is the direct result of God's call and thus glorification is then inevitable (Romans 8:30). This imputation of Christ's righteousness and conferring of salvation upon anyone only God can do, and Jesus clearly did that.

Yes, and as I showed above that authority was given to him. Nobody gives God authority for anything.

Ugh. Well, I don't disagree, but see above. And below.

He just has it and he can give it to others, Jesus even gave the same authority his apostles.

John 20:23,

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained....

But they were filled with the Holy Spirit, Who, as He superintended the writing of God's infallible and inerrant Word through the centuries, so superintended their forgiveness in their time, so issuing God's forgiveness through the apostles; they were given the ability to perform signs and wonders (Acts 2:43, 5:12; 2 Corinthians 12:12; ). Neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism; they were intended to vindicate the authority of the apostles once for all. When the apostles had finished their founding work and died, signs and wonders would cease as a part of gospel ministry. Hebrews 2:4 looks back on the time when the apostles brought the gospel to this people and says, "It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard Him (i.e., apostles), while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to His own will." Again, God superintended the signs and wonders of the apostles, so responsibility for the signs and wonders is God's alone, and the apostles attested to this. Jesus even foretells this in Mark 16:17, saying the signs and wonders they do will be in His name. So, again, the miracles were not an every day occurrence in the church but something the church looked back on at a very special time when the eyewitness' of the Lord first brought the gospel. The age of the apostles, which was necessary in the days of the early first century church, but is long past.

But the passage you is still relevant to us, because, as I said, we can ~ and should ~ forgive each other for sins against one another. But again, that means nothing as far as justification, imputation of Christ's righteousness, and conferring of salvation. Not to minimize the importance of human forgiveness and reconciliation in any way ~ we're called to do that, even 70 times 7 times... as many as it takes ~ but it's horizontal (creature to creature) rather than vertical (Creator to creature).

Round and round we go...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Well, yes and no. Yes, of course, regarding His time on earth, as that only came about a bit over two thousand years ago, but no, as evidenced by the fact that, as you may or may not acknowledge but is true nonetheless, Jesus prays to the Father to restore to Him the glory He (Jesus) had with Him (the Father) "before the world existed," from all eternity... knowing full well that He (the Father) would do so (John 17:5).

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

​

I mentioned how it really helps to understand the scriptures through the eyes of those to whom God gave it. It's easy enough to see how the Jews viewed God's foreknowledge. Doing so would shed light on John as well as Ephesians.

Even setting aside Him doing, both while hear on earth and now at the right hand of the Father, things that only God can possibly do

Jesus did things that only God can do? Like the things Jesus said we would all do plus greater things?

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

See, you keep accusing me of denying Jesus, all the while your yourself don't really believe him. Now if you want to ignore Jesus' words and insist that only he can do what he did, then you are making yourself to be God because that very Jesus clearly said we can do even greater works than he himself did. I'd stick with what he actually said.

Sure, Rich, nothing happens without the Father's say-so. No one here denies that (hopefully); I certainly don't. But the issue is not so much "where did He get it," but rather, "Why is He qualified to have it?"

The same reason we are qualified for it?

and "How could He possibly wield it if He were not God Himself?" Both questions are rhetorical, really, more so the second that the first.

Could he not possibly have it because God gave it to him? I think so. Same way we all wield it. You can think what you choose for yourslef, but my having the abiltity to wield power is a gift from God. It no way makes me to be God though.

This is all God's glory, which Jesus had with the Father from all eternity. John 17:5 is indisputable evidence of that, disagree (and deny) as you may.

Many eminent Christian Bible scholars, tinitarians included, are not in agreement on this verse as well as many others in John.

Just two verse before that one,

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

​

Look at the grammar there. Jesus was not talking to himself. He was talking to God. You can tell that by the word, "thee." That "thee" refers to someone other than himself. Jesus was not saying he himself was the only true God. He was saying the person to whom he was speaking was the only true God.

That has to fit with John 17:3. There are actually ways of taking verse 5 that don't contradict the clear, unambiguous declaration of verse 3.

Paul confirmed that simple declaration in 1 Cor 8:6. He made it even more clear in saying that only the Father is God. Now if you want to say Jesus is the Father you will be in a place that nobody I know has ever gone. Pretty sure that even the trinity doctrine itself, be it right or wrong,
Says Jesus is God the Son. Sorry that just doesn't fit with him being the only true God.

LOL! The issue is Who Jesus was perceived to be ~ a mere man ~ by the Pharisees... their speaking without seeing, which puts you firmly in their camp, Rich.

What? You are the one who agreed with the Pharisees, not me.

I'll side with what Jesus said and he clearly said that God granted him the power to forgive sins (I fail to see how that makes him a "mere" man, but whatever). Later Jesus, by the authority granted him by God, gave the same authority to the apostles. So we have God, Jesus and the apostles having the power to forgive sins. That is hardly what the scribes, the Pharisees and now apparently you insist on saying. I'm afraid your LOL is quite misdirected my friend.

We can forgive each other, of course, but that means nothing as far as justification, which only God can do. This justification is the direct result of God's call and thus glorification is then inevitable (Romans 8:30). This imputation of Christ's righteousness and conferring of salvation upon anyone only God can do, and Jesus clearly did that.

And yet you appear to take it upon yourself to deny me the justification you say only God can give. You appear to determine who is justified and who isn't.

But they were filled with the Holy Spirit, Who, as He superintended the writing of God's infallible and inerrant Word through the centuries, so superintended their forgiveness in their time, so issuing God's forgiveness through the apostles; they were given the ability to perform signs and wonders (Acts 2:43, 5:12; 2 Corinthians 12:12; ). Neither then nor today were signs and wonders intended to be a normal part of church ministry or evangelism;

Well, I really hate to bring this up, but it is the scriptures which are profitable for doctrine, reproof, and correction.

2 Tim 3:1-5,

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.​

​

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,​

​

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,​

​

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;​

​

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.​

For myself, I will never deny the power God gave me to carry out the mission He gave us all. We need it. We wrestle against spiritual wickedness in high places and I dare not enter that contest with my own reason and ability. Anyone that does will get spiritually pulverized. The devil know the Bible better than any of us, so we ought to believe and act upon at least the parts we do know if we want a fighting chance to beat that old bird. We'll gain more knowledge as we remain faithful and continue to study the scriptures. And yes, it is pure grace that we can do that. It's nothing you or I did to deserve it. It's a free gift to those who least deserved it. That's what God's love is all about.

If you want to deny that power and have nothing but a form of godliness, that's your choice. You are free to choose to ignore Jesus' own words about the ability you have to do everything he did and even more, but I would strongly suggest you humble yourself, stop using your own reason and believe the things God says about you.

Here's what the verse says:

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

​

Perhaps it's just wrong or misunderstood teaching, but you want change that to:

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, the Apostles, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

​

Also, you either don't know, or you just ignore, (I trust it's the former, but that is about to change) what the Peter, inspired by God said.

Acts 2:38-39,

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.​

Now you know it. Did God call you? Well, If He did call you, then you have the gift of holy spirit which in turn gives you the ability to operate all nine of the manifestations listed in 1 Cor 12:7-10.

​

Your arbitrary changing manifestations to gifts ought to give you pause. You've been shown from the scriptures the truth of the matter and it's not what you've espoused up til now. Again, I'd urge you to humble yourself and believe what the Bible says over your own reason.

 

[Earburner]

Good point about why the various spirit beings are called sons of God. Seems simple enough.

I think that Gen 1:27 is relevant to our discussion.

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.​

​

The plural "us" in verse 26 is changed to the singular "his" in verse 27. That fits with what you said about only God can create.

There is another thing we should always consider when reading the Bible. The Bible was not written last year in New York of LA. It was written to a people who lived some 3,000 years ago in the Near East. That has rather huge implications. The people in the Ancient Near East (ANE) thought about their world in a much different way than we think about it. Take Genesis 1:1 for example.

Gen 1:1,

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.​

​

I think it fair to say that most Christians (I can at least speak for myself for many years) in the modern West form something like the following image in their minds:

View attachment 34204

But that isn't even close to what the ANE people, including the Jews, would have pictured. They would have seen it more like this:

View attachment 34205

This is very close to how all people in the ANE saw their world, and God saw no reason to change that image to communicate His message to Israel. At it's heart, Genesis is not really a story of how God created the material universe. The ANE people simply had no interest in the material universe. Their primary concern in life was how to please the gods so as to insure a relatively good life for themselves. Instead Genesis is about God's desire to dwell with man in a perfect land, i.e., Eden, how they could life a good life. There was no reason for God to explain the gravitational pull of the sun on the earth, so He didn't. He spoke in terms with which they area already familiar and it worked fine.

As I mentioned above, you will never find anything in the Bible about gravity, the movement of the earth around he sun, the big bang, the expanding universe, etc. But you will find such things as:

1 Sam 2:8,

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.​

​

Notice that the second image of the cosmos shows the land resting on pillars.

1Chr 16:30,

Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.​

​

In direct contradiction to a movable earth, God says it does not move. While contrary to our modern view (picture 1), God says it does not move (picture 2). Bible naysayers laugh at this, they say the Bible is stupid. Well, they may want to consider who is stupid and who isn't. The Bible is not a science book and was never meant to be one. It makes no attempt whatsoever to explain the material universe. Instead it is a religious book, and as I said above, it is meant to tell humans how to live in harmony with each other and with God. The actual physical composition of the universe is irrelevant to what God wanted to communicate. God just let the Jews think about the cosmos what they already thought. He saw no need to change that view, so He didn't.

What does that have to do with Genesis 1:26? Well, it has everything to do with Genesis 1:26. In the ANE it was taken for granted that there were many spiritual beings besides their main gods. And, as we've already discussed, God said that there were indeed a host of spiritual beings (angels, seraphim, cheribum, etc.) beside Himself.

Such and idea would have been foremost in an Israelite's mind when he or she read Genesis. On the other hand, they had basically no idea, if any at all, of Jesus at that time. The faintest hint of Jesus would not have come until Genesis 3:15, which was some time after Genesis 1:26. But even then, it would be very doubtful that they understood that the promised seed referred to Jesus. Surely not enough of an idea to override their deep belief in God's heavenly council being the "us" in Genesis 1:26.

To really understand much of the Bible, it really helps to try and ask yourself, not what do I, a modern Westerner see here, but what would someone steeped in ANE culture and cosmology see. It can make a huge difference and I believe it does with Genesis 1:26. I think they would see the "us" as referring to the spirit beings who lived with God. I think it highly unlikely, if not virtually impossible, for Jesus to pop up into their minds when reading that verse.

There is a field of Bible study called "Comparative Study." It basically looks at the customs, the cosmology (how the universe is made), the religious beliefs, and more of the people who lived in the Ancient Near East. That was the environment within which Israel existed and their basic world view as really no different from all the other peoples of that time. We can then read the scriptures from the point of view of the people to whom God actually gave those scriptures.

I've barely scratched the surface of this subject. I might suggest you google, "ancient near east and the bible" for more information. It's absolutely fascinating, and I know it will revolutionize how the Bible is understood to anyone who takes the time to do so. Anyone can understand it as God originally gave it to man, free from the modern Western filter that we have unfortunately adopted as the basis for our understanding of God. I've been on both sides of the fence, so I speak from experience.

It appears that you are speaking historically, whereas I am speaking spiritually.
1 Cor. 9-16,
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; [so] that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but [that] which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Rich R]

It appears that you are speaking historically, whereas I am speaking spiritually.
1 Cor. 9-16,
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; [so] that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but [that] which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

History and spirituality are not mutually exclusive. The people of the Ancient Near East, including Israel, were very spiritual people. In fact they were much more spiritually minded than the Modern West. They didn't even make a distinction between the natural and the spiritual. Every thing to them was spiritual. The Modern West makes a separation between natural and spiritual. Was the ANE wrong and we right? I'd say it's just the opposite. God wrote in terms they understood. They would have been completely baffled had God communicated to them in with a Modern Western world point of view. All of that is easily verifiable.

For example, here is a typical Modern West explanation of rain:

"It all lies in what’s known as the hydrologic cycle. This cycle is responsible for transporting water from the ground to the air and back into the ground again. Water is transported into the air through two main processes: evaporation (such as from a body of water like the ocean) and transpiration (which is evaporation of water from plants). Did you know that of the transpired water passing through a plant, only 1% is actually used in the growth process of the plant. The remaining 99% is passed into the atmosphere!"​

Here's how a an ancient Jew understood the rain.

Ps 147:8,

Who (God) covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.​

Which explanation sounds more spiritual to you? I vote for Psalms. The Modern Western view says nothing about God being the ultimate cause, whereas the Jews saw God as the ultimate cause for rain.

Also that section of 1 Cor has a context and we should take that into account. In any case, it doesn't say we must ignore history to get spiritual knowledge.

 

[Earburner]

History and spirituality are not mutually exclusive. The people of the Ancient Near East, including Israel, were very spiritual people. In fact they were much more spiritually minded than the Modern West. They didn't even make a distinction between the natural and the spiritual. Every thing to them was spiritual. The Modern West makes a separation between natural and spiritual. Was the ANE wrong and we right? I'd say it's just the opposite. God wrote in terms they understood. They would have been completely baffled had God communicated to them in with a Modern Western world point of view. All of that is easily verifiable.

For example, here is a typical Modern West explanation of rain:

"It all lies in what’s known as the hydrologic cycle. This cycle is responsible for transporting water from the ground to the air and back into the ground again. Water is transported into the air through two main processes: evaporation (such as from a body of water like the ocean) and transpiration (which is evaporation of water from plants). Did you know that of the transpired water passing through a plant, only 1% is actually used in the growth process of the plant. The remaining 99% is passed into the atmosphere!"​

Here's how a an ancient Jew understood the rain.

Ps 147:8,

Who (God) covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.​

Which explanation sounds more spiritual to you? I vote for Psalms. The Modern Western view says nothing about God being the ultimate cause, whereas the Jews saw God as the ultimate cause for rain.

Also that section of 1 Cor has a context and we should take that into account. In any case, it doesn't say we must ignore history to get spiritual knowledge.

Although historical knowledge of biblical settings, and events have their place, it IS NOT spiritual knowledge FROM God.

I am not talking about spiritual things (mysticism) fabricated by the human mind of "the natural man", aka "the man of sin".

I am talking about spiritual things that only originate from God's Holy Spirit, aka the Mind/Spirit of Christ, who is within the born again believer. Many do not utilize His Mind effectually, because of the heavy external influence of religious doctrines of persuasion. 1 Cor. ch. 2, Zech. 4:6, Rom. 8:8-9, Isa. 55:8-9.

 

[Rich R]

Although historical knowledge of biblical settings, and events have their place, it IS NOT spiritual knowledge FROM God.

I am not talking about spiritual things (mysticism) fabricated by the human mind of "the natural man", aka "the man of sin".

I am talking about spiritual things that only originate from God's Holy Spirit, aka the Mind/Spirit of Christ, who is within the born again believer. Many do not utilize His Mind effectually, because of the heavy external influence of religious doctrines of persuasion. 1 Cor. ch. 2, Zech. 4:6, Rom. 8:8-9, Isa. 55:8-9.

Well, I wasn't talking about mysticism or human fabrications either. The record God gave us about Israel is hardly mysticism or human fabrications. They are true. But they are also historic, given that they are most certainly not current events. Since God saw fit to show us Israel's history, I fail to see anything inherently wrong with history. In fact, we ought to take heed of that history.

But what God said in the OT is also spiritual. I can't imagine any Christian thinking they weren't. The record of Israel did originate from God. They are not man's words, but God's words.

I think maybe you objected to my saying all people of the Ancient Near East saw everything as spiritual because they were an ungodly people. That is true, but nonetheless they saw rain coming from the gods. They saw the flooding of the Nile as an act of the gods. They saw thunder and lightning as the act of the gods. The saw the wind as an act of the gods. The saw the rising and setting of the sun as the act of the gods. As I said, they saw all natural phenomenons acts of the gods. Of course, they had many gods, and it was different gods that they saw as causing different events. There was a rain god, there was another god that controlled the floods, another god that controlled thunder and lightning, another god that controlled the sun and so on. In any case they didn't explain natural phenomenon with mathematical equations as we do in the Modern West. In that sense they thought in spiritual terms, not in scientific terms as we do today.

We now know, thanks to God's written communication to man that their gods were actually the spiritual beings that joined with Lucifer in his rebellion against God. They were not man's imagination. They were very real gods. These same gods are quite active to this day. Baal is still with us. Might that not be the answer to the question everybody asks, "What is causing all these mass shootings?" I think so.

But Satan has remained pretty well under cover since the West became enamored with science. Very few people would consider that destructive weather events are cause by evil spirits as the root cause. Most think they are caused by global warming which is caused by excess CO2 which cause the ozone lay to go haywire, etc. Likewise few would consider Satan as the cause of mass shootings. They think they are caused by too many guns in the hands of too many people who have mental problems because they had a tragic childhood.

Now, on the one hand weather is caused by high and low pressure zones and many mass shooters did have a tragic childhood, but neither can be separated from spiritual realities that lie underneath all natural phenomena. The storm the apostles found themselves in while fishing was a very real natural event, but its root cause was spiritual. The devil was not liking their following of Jesus and he set up the natural events that caused the storm, hoping to eliminate some of Jesus' most loyal followers. Jesus of course calmed that storm. But he didn't do it by converting gas cars to electric, yt shutting down coal plant and building solar energy farms, etc. No. He went right to the root, to the spiritual cause and dealt with it on that level. He spoke words and words have spiritual power when joined with the truth of God's Word.

Well, Israel, with own God's blessing and urging, also saw all the natural events as an act of some spiritual being. The only difference between Israel and their neighbors was that Israel saw all these natural events as the act of one God, namely Yahweh. They knew that the spiritual being behind all natural events was Yahweh. One God, not many gods, controlled everything.

Before I took the time and effort to understand how the Ancient Near East people (Including Israel) saw their world, I too thought mass shooting were cause by too many guns, that tornadoes were cause by global warming, that destructive winds were caused by air moving from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure, that rain was caused by water vapor rising into the atmosphere and cooling down, etc. Now I see all these events being as being caused by our God. He set up the rain so that we can grow crops, He causes the ocean waves, the wind, the movement of the sun, etc. Our God is behind every natural event we witness all day long, every day. There are tons of verses in the scriptures that say just that. All those verses suddenly had way more meaning to me. They show the true greatness of our God and how He sets up earthly events so that we, His children can live and thrive.

Nature reveals God, but most don't see it.

Rom 1:18-21,

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;​

​

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.​

​

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

​

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

Read the rest of Romans 1. It is a perfect description of why we have so much evil in our world today. Instead of being spiritual, repenting and turning to God to solve our many problems, we turn to legislation and so-called science. We want man to give us a safe and sane world. Truly many hearts have been darkened because of our lack of holding God as the ture upholder of a safe and sane world, the only power that can make such a world a reality. In fact, we've sunk so far, and did so a long time ago, that the only real and complete solution will be seen when Jesus returns and sets up a true Godly government as will finally come to pass in Revelation chapters 20 and following. At that time everybody will finally turn to God to solve the problems on every level we see today.

If that's not spiritual thinking, I don't know what would be, and I fail to see one iota of my own fabrication in it. But, that's just me. I think what I've said aligns with God's will, but time will tell if that's true of not.

 

[Earburner]

Well, I wasn't talking about mysticism or human fabrications either. The record God gave us about Israel is hardly mysticism or human fabrications. They are true. But they are also historic, given that they are most certainly not current events. Since God saw fit to show us Israel's history, I fail to see anything inherently wrong with history. In fact, we ought to take heed of that history.

But what God said in the OT is also spiritual. I can't imagine any Christian thinking they weren't. The record of Israel did originate from God. They are not man's words, but God's words.

I think maybe you objected to my saying all people of the Ancient Near East saw everything as spiritual because they were an ungodly people. That is true, but nonetheless they saw rain coming from the gods. They saw the flooding of the Nile as an act of the gods. They saw thunder and lightning as the act of the gods. The saw the wind as an act of the gods. The saw the rising and setting of the sun as the act of the gods. As I said, they saw all natural phenomenons acts of the gods. Of course, they had many gods, and it was different gods that they saw as causing different events. There was a rain god, there was another god that controlled the floods, another god that controlled thunder and lightning, another god that controlled the sun and so on. In any case they didn't explain natural phenomenon with mathematical equations as we do in the Modern West. In that sense they thought in spiritual terms, not in scientific terms as we do today.

We now know, thanks to God's written communication to man that their gods were actually the spiritual beings that joined with Lucifer in his rebellion against God. They were not man's imagination. They were very real gods. These same gods are quite active to this day. Baal is still with us. Might that not be the answer to the question everybody asks, "What is causing all these mass shootings?" I think so.

But Satan has remained pretty well under cover since the West became enamored with science. Very few people would consider that destructive weather events are cause by evil spirits as the root cause. Most think they are caused by global warming which is caused by excess CO2 which cause the ozone lay to go haywire, etc. Likewise few would consider Satan as the cause of mass shootings. They think they are caused by too many guns in the hands of too many people who have mental problems because they had a tragic childhood.

Now, on the one hand weather is caused by high and low pressure zones and many mass shooters did have a tragic childhood, but neither can be separated from spiritual realities that lie underneath all natural phenomena. The storm the apostles found themselves in while fishing was a very real natural event, but its root cause was spiritual. The devil was not liking their following of Jesus and he set up the natural events that caused the storm, hoping to eliminate some of Jesus' most loyal followers. Jesus of course calmed that storm. But he didn't do it by converting gas cars to electric, yt shutting down coal plant and building solar energy farms, etc. No. He went right to the root, to the spiritual cause and dealt with it on that level. He spoke words and words have spiritual power when joined with the truth of God's Word.

Well, Israel, with own God's blessing and urging, also saw all the natural events as an act of some spiritual being. The only difference between Israel and their neighbors was that Israel saw all these natural events as the act of one God, namely Yahweh. They knew that the spiritual being behind all natural events was Yahweh. One God, not many gods, controlled everything.

Before I took the time and effort to understand how the Ancient Near East people (Including Israel) saw their world, I too thought mass shooting were cause by too many guns, that tornadoes were cause by global warming, that destructive winds were caused by air moving from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure, that rain was caused by water vapor rising into the atmosphere and cooling down, etc. Now I see all these events being as being caused by our God. He set up the rain so that we can grow crops, He causes the ocean waves, the wind, the movement of the sun, etc. Our God is behind every natural event we witness all day long, every day. There are tons of verses in the scriptures that say just that. All those verses suddenly had way more meaning to me. They show the true greatness of our God and how He sets up earthly events so that we, His children can live and thrive.

Nature reveals God, but most don't see it.

Rom 1:18-21,

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;​

​

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.​

​

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

​

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

Read the rest of Romans 1. It is a perfect description of why we have so much evil in our world today. Instead of being spiritual, repenting and turning to God to solve our many problems, we turn to legislation and so-called science. We want man to give us a safe and sane world. Truly many hearts have been darkened because of our lack of holding God as the ture upholder of a safe and sane world, the only power that can make such a world a reality. In fact, we've sunk so far, and did so a long time ago, that the only real and complete solution will be seen when Jesus returns and sets up a true Godly government as will finally come to pass in Revelation chapters 20 and following. At that time everybody will finally turn to God to solve the problems on every level we see today.

If that's not spiritual thinking, I don't know what would be, and I fail to see one iota of my own fabrication in it. But, that's just me. I think what I've said aligns with God's will, but time will tell if that's true of not.

Rich, In my post #216, I didn't say that you or any born again Christian is involved with mysticism. I am saying that the mind of our natural man (both Jew and Gentile), the man of sin, cannot think the things of God's mind. Therefore they are wide open to satanic influence, thinking only their own thoughts and imaginations of/and about this earth.

Yes, God has created everything of the natural that is in this world, but we who are born again, are no longer of this world.
As a result, we ONLY, WHO ARE the "NEW creatures" of God's NEW creation, should be careful that we are not worshipping the things of the natural, which He created for our temporary well being, while living here in the bodies of our inherited adamic corrupted flesh.

Even though satan has been cast to this earth, having great wrath, we should be also aware of his corrupted and cunning ways of benevolence. His primal interest is to "Save the Planet", the only place of his residence.
So then, in that line of reasoning, that we are God's NEW Creation, through the literal Person of Christ, we are not the "caretakers" of this planet.

Whether you want to here it or not, this planet earth is NOT our home now, nor shall it ever be. We ARE ourselves the NEW EARTH, wherein the Righteousness of God dwells.
However, that is not to say while we are here, we shouldn't be good stewards with the things that we individually work with daily.

 

[Rich R]

Rich, In my post #216, I didn't say that you or any born again Christian is involved with mysticism.

I didn't think you were saying I was involved with mysticism. I understood with what you said and I was agreeing with you. I guess a fair number, too many really, Christians do dabble in it though.

I am saying that the mind of our natural man (both Jew and Gentile), the man of sin, cannot think the things of God's mind. Therefore they are wide open to satanic influence, thinking only their own thoughts and imaginations of/and about this earth.

Yep, all thanks to Adam. But not to worry, through Jesus God made the new man composed of both Jews and Gentiles which enables us to overcome satanic influence. But Christians still have to be on guard. We still have flesh. That didn't go away with the new man and it wars against the new man God put in all of us. Romans 7 talks about that. Even Paul had that battle in his mind.

That'll be the case until Jesus comes back and gives us a new body that'll finally overcome once and for all fleshly thinking. Until then it's a moment by moment battle with that old bird, the devil. We are like soldiers behind enemy lines. We must be very very careful.

But we already know the final score...we win.

Yes, God has created everything of the natural that is in this world, but we who are born again, are no longer of this world.
As a result, we ONLY, WHO ARE the "NEW creatures" of God's NEW creation, should be careful that we are not worshipping the things of the natural, which He created for our temporary well being, while living here in the bodies of our inherited adamic corrupted flesh.

Even though satan has been cast to this earth, having great wrath, we should be also aware of his corrupted and cunning ways of benevolence. His primal interest is to "Save the Planet", the only place of his residence.
So then, in that line of reasoning, that we are God's NEW Creation, through the literal Person of Christ, we are not the "caretakers" of this planet.

Very well said.

2 Cor 5:17,

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

​

Whether you want to here it or not, this planet earth is NOT our home now, nor shall it ever be. We ARE ourselves the NEW EARTH, wherein the Righteousness of God dwells.
However, that is not to say while we are here, we shouldn't be good stewards with the things that we individually work with daily.

Well, that's where we differ. While I do understand that this present junk yard of an earth is not our home, I still maintain that the new earth will be a very physical one that is yet to come, one where we will build houses, plant vineyards, raise crops and animals, and more (Isaiah 65:17-25). I just can't quite picture that happening on top of me.

But we'll find out soon enough when Jesus comes back and gives us the final victory.

Thanks for the conversation. Just thinking and writing about God's word is a good thing. I'm thankful for anyone who let's me do that, and I'm more than happy to return the favor.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's easy enough to see how the Jews viewed God's foreknowledge. Doing so would shed light on John as well as Ephesians.

Yes, John, Paul, and Jews in general knew that the Hebrew and Greek verb "to know" was synonymous with "to love" and to sovereignly distinguish and favor in this way. They knew their language, so we should understand it on their terms.

Jesus did things that only God can do? Like the things Jesus said we would all do plus greater things?

Can you ~ or any mere human being ~ make the blind to see, RIch? Make the deaf hear? Make the lame leap for joy? Make the mute tongue sing? Turn water into wine? Feed over 20,000 folks with five loaves of bread and two fish? Walk on water? Command the wind and the waves ~ nature itself ~ and have them ~ it ~ obey? Much less confer salvation upon another person... You can do these things? And of course He accepted and welcomed praise and worship of Himself...

See, you keep accusing me of denying Jesus...

...because you are. You're not alone.

The same reason we are qualified for it?

LOL! We're not, because we are not both of God and of man. Only Jesus.

Could he not possibly have it because God gave it to him? I think so.

Well, I think so, too, I agree, but that is only... half the story, as it were. God shares His glory with no other, yet Jesus, in confidence that He will, prays to the Father to restore to Him the glory that He had with the Father from all eternity.

Same way we all wield it.

Neither you nor I nor any mere human being wields the same power ~ or glory ~ as God in the ways that God has, does and will.

...my having the ability to wield power is a gift from God.

And what are your powers, Rich?

It no way makes me to be God though.

Sure. Nor me. Nor any other mere human being, past or present. That's the point.

Many eminent Christian Bible scholars, tinitarians included, are not in agreement on this verse as well as many others in John.

Yes, there are mistaken folks of all walks of life...

Just two verse before that one, John 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

​

Look at the grammar there. Jesus was not talking to himself. He was talking to God. You can tell that by the word, "thee." That "thee" refers to someone other than himself. Jesus was not saying he himself was the only true God. He was saying the person to whom he was speaking was the only true God.

I'm not denying that He was speaking to the Father and calling Him God. But you "unitarians" act as if that is in exclusion to or nullifies John 17:5, and in this way are denying Jesus. Maybe you'll come around, like Thomas did in John 20:28.

That has to fit with John 17:3.

Right, so start doing it.

There are actually ways of taking verse 5 that don't contradict the clear, unambiguous declaration of verse 3.

Ah, "ways"...

Paul confirmed that simple declaration in 1 Cor 8:6. He made it even more clear in saying that only the Father is God.

Ah, yes, the unitarian's favorite verse... What follows "one God" there, Rich, is a compound appositive phrase: "the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist."

Now if you want to say Jesus is the Father, you will be in a place that nobody I know has ever gone.

Nope. Don't want to say that... LOL!

You are the one who agreed with the Pharisees, not me.

You're fooling yourself, Rich. The Pharisees saw Jesus as only a mere man, and you are firmly (and unfortunately) in that camp, Rich.

Later Jesus, by the authority granted him by God, gave the same authority to the apostles.

Aside from what that really means, which I explained earlier, what makes Jesus qualified to grant anything of the sort to anyone, Rich? Oh, yes, it was "given" to Him... Well, I don't disagree, but it's a far greater matter than that, my friend.

So we have God, Jesus and the apostles having the power to forgive sins.

The apostles did what they did in the name of Christ Jesus.

And yet you appear to take it upon yourself to deny me the justification you say only God can give.

Absolutely not.

You appear to determine who is justified and who isn't.

Absolutely not. But I can make judgments for myself about who I think are justified and thus members of God's elect or not. This is called discernment.

For myself, I will never deny the power God gave me...

The power is still God's, Rich, and always will be. And He may use you to exercise His power and His will, but it is not yours. To God alone be the power and the glory, Rich. I don't know about you, but I pray this every day. "...for Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever, amen."

...you want change that to...

No, you put words in my mouth, which, with all due respect, Rich, I have no respect or use for, and completely disregard, because it deserves none.

...If He did call you, then you have the gift of holy spirit which in turn gives you the ability to operate all nine of the manifestations listed in 1 Cor 12:7-10.

Yes, thanks be to God, I have the Holy Spirit ~ this is God's assurance to me, and conviction by the Holy Spirit, Who convicts... faith (Hebrews 11:1) ~ Who is clearly referred to as a "Who" ~ especially by Christ Jesus in John 14 ~ Who does specific things for us and in us. And yes, it is by His working in us so that we will and work for God's pleasure (Philippians 2:13); this is the Father's will.

Your arbitrary changing manifestations to gifts ought to give you pause.

I do no such thing. Do you actually purposely misrepresent what I have said? Or are you just of little understanding? The Spirit manifests Himself in us ~ makes Himself evident in us ~ through the gifts that we are given and exercise. These are the gifts of the Spirit, that manifest themselves in us in different ways, but generally speaking as the fruit of the Spirit, which is ~ singular, though multiple ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). We are exhorted by Paul there to live by the Spirit, and also to keep in step with Him (Galatians 5:25).

You've been shown from the scriptures the truth of the matter and it's not what you've espoused up til now. Again, I'd urge you to humble yourself and believe what the Bible says over your own reason.

Well, thanks for your opinion, Rich. But, I humbly ~ submit that very same thought right back to you, Rich, in full.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

I do no such thing. Do you actually purposely misrepresent what I have said? Or are you just of little understanding? The Spirit manifests Himself in us ~ makes Himself evident in us ~ through the gifts that we are given and exercise. These are the gifts of the Spirit, that manifest themselves in us in different ways, but generally speaking as the fruit of the Spirit, which is ~ singular, though multiple ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). We are exhorted by Paul there to live by the Spirit, and also to keep in step with Him (Galatians 5:25).

Rich, I understand by scripture that the gifts of the Spirit are different than the fruit of the Spirit. You quoted what the fruit of the Spirit is, but you didn't quote what the gifts are.
You might want to your check your wording.
Was it a typo, in that something didn't copy and paste that you intended?

EDIT: Sorry about that, I just found your reference of 1 Cor. 12:7-10. That's what I get for interjecting.