Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

[Rich R]

There was never a Christless relationship with God for the Jews before Christ was born as a babe. If scripture be true that no man has seen God then neither did Adam and Eve in Eden. The Lord God in the garden must have been Christ. God dwells in an unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.


11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only [e]Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

All good stuff, but any comment on 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly says only the Father is God? Have you seen anything anywhere, inside of or outside of the scriptures, that calls Jesus the Father? I think that verse lays out pretty definitively as to who the one God is.

I know there are some verses that may be taken in a way that suggests Jesus is God. But I'm sure you will agree that the scriptures do not contradict themselves. So how can we make 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly eliminates Jesus as a candidate for God with the verses that are usually shown to say Jesus is God. They must all agree as to who Jesus is.

For example, I think John 1:1 might be considered as the mainstay for Jesus being God. Well if we take that to say Jesus really is God then we must make 1 Cor 8:6 agree. Somehow we must make that verse say that it is not just the Father that is God, but the son also is God. I'm stumped as to how we might do that. It's a pretty simple declaration, that would be hard to take it as saying the son is God. Maybe you see something there I don't see.

The other option would be to say John 1:1 does not in fact say Jesus is God, thus making it in complete agreement with John 1:1. Well that actually wouldn't be that hard. All we would need to do is read it exactly as it is written, avoiding making any substitution of one word for another. In other words, we must not read it as, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God." That is not what the text says. It says, "In the beginning was the word (logos), an d the word (logos) was with God, and the word (logos) was God." There is not a text in existence that doesn't say it that way.

It is purely speculative to say that the logos is Jesus. The logos is the logos. It has a rather rich history, but few take the time to understand exactly what it is. There is a ton of available information on it, so there is really no excuse to not see how the people of that time and place understood it to mean.

Interestingly enough, John actually states the express purpose for writing his Gospel.

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

If we just let John say what it says in 1:1 and believe John's purpose for writing the things he wrote, it will not contradict 1 Corinthians 8:6, thus preserving the integrity of God's wonderful matchless word. I can't for the life of me figure out why that is considered blasphemy by the orthodox church. Not only is there no real support in the scriptures for Jesus being God, but there is no need whatsoever for making him God. The story reads just fine, way better actually, if we let Jesus be the son of God. For many reasons, it brings the message into much more clarity.

The scriptures are at heart about one man who screwed everything up and another man who made it all better. It's really much more exciting than God simply coming down and doing everything Himself. From the very beginning in Eden and throughout the entire book, God worked with human agents to accomplish His work. How wonderful a God is that places so much trust in His created human beings. No other Ancient Near East god came even close to Yahweh in that regard. They all just used and abused humans. Our God is not like that though. He worked with humans for some 4,000 years before He could get a man by his free will to finally say, "Not my will, but thine be done." As great as that statement actually is, and as great as the man who spoke those words is, it would become utterly meaningless if Jesus were God. I mean, how many wills does God have? One, two, more? I vote for one. While in Gethseme that night, Jesus had a will that was actually diametrically opposed to God. Who wouldn't want to avoid such a horrible death Jesus was soon to face? But, though tempted just like the rest of us, he subjugated his will to that of his Father's. Absolutely mind boggling in my book!

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

The man Jesus is the mediator. The one God is the God. What could be more clear than that?

 

[Scott Downey]

All good stuff, but any comment on 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly says only the Father is God? Have you seen anything anywhere, inside of or outside of the scriptures, that calls Jesus the Father? I think that verse lays out pretty definitively as to who the one God is.

I know there are some verses that may be taken in a way that suggests Jesus is God. But I'm sure you will agree that the scriptures do not contradict themselves. So how can we make 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly eliminates Jesus as a candidate for God with the verses that are usually shown to say Jesus is God. They must all agree as to who Jesus is.

For example, I think John 1:1 might be considered as the mainstay for Jesus being God. Well if we take that to say Jesus really is God then we must make 1 Cor 8:6 agree. Somehow we must make that verse say that it is not just the Father that is God, but the son also is God. I'm stumped as to how we might do that. It's a pretty simple declaration, that would be hard to take it as saying the son is God. Maybe you see something there I don't see.

The other option would be to say John 1:1 does not in fact say Jesus is God, thus making it in complete agreement with John 1:1. Well that actually wouldn't be that hard. All we would need to do is read it exactly as it is written, avoiding making any substitution of one word for another. In other words, we must not read it as, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God." That is not what the text says. It says, "In the beginning was the word (logos), an d the word (logos) was with God, and the word (logos) was God." There is not a text in existence that doesn't say it that way.

It is purely speculative to say that the logos is Jesus. The logos is the logos. It has a rather rich history, but few take the time to understand exactly what it is. There is a ton of available information on it, so there is really no excuse to not see how the people of that time and place understood it to mean.

Interestingly enough, John actually states the express purpose for writing his Gospel.

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

If we just let John say what it says in 1:1 and believe John's purpose for writing the things he wrote, it will not contradict 1 Corinthians 8:6, thus preserving the integrity of God's wonderful matchless word. I can't for the life of me figure out why that is considered blasphemy by the orthodox church. Not only is there no real support in the scriptures for Jesus being God, but there is no need whatsoever for making him God. The story reads just fine, way better actually, if we let Jesus be the son of God. For many reasons, it brings the message into much more clarity.

The scriptures are at heart about one man who screwed everything up and another man who made it all better. It's really much more exciting than God simply coming down and doing everything Himself. From the very beginning in Eden and throughout the entire book, God worked with human agents to accomplish His work. How wonderful a God is that places so much trust in His created human beings. No other Ancient Near East god came even close to Yahweh in that regard. They all just used and abused humans. Our God is not like that though. He worked with humans for some 4,000 years before He could get a man by his free will to finally say, "Not my will, but thine be done." As great as that statement actually is, and as great as the man who spoke those words is, it would become utterly meaningless if Jesus were God. I mean, how many wills does God have? One, two, more? I vote for one. While in Gethseme that night, Jesus had a will that was actually diametrically opposed to God. Who wouldn't want to avoid such a horrible death Jesus was soon to face? But, though tempted just like the rest of us, he subjugated his will to that of his Father's. Absolutely mind boggling in my book!

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

The man Jesus is the mediator. The one God is the God. What could be more clear than that?

Jesus the form of God who became incarnate flesh for a purpose. Aso here it shows God exists as the Father and also as Christ the Lord.

The Humbled and Exalted Christ​

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Rich R]

Yes, I do agree with your scripture references, however God's unvailing of His secret, was cloaked in the OT words: "the promise to come" and "the promised one", aka the Messiah.
Israel of faith were riveted on those words, and for those who were/had been waiting, they were not let down or forgotten by God. Malachi 3:16.

The knowledge of the secret/mystery of who the Messiah/Savior was, came out of the mouth of John the Baptist two times in John 1
[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
God the Father Himself spoke those words, revealing through the first of the "two witnesses", that the name of Jesus was by His Authority, no longer a secret.

Then there is Simeon, whereby the Holy Ghost told him that he would see the Savior with his own eyes. "...it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ."
Luke 2:25-32.

I see that the "secret" was made known much earlier, than by Paul. It was revealed by God the Father through John the Baptist, one of the "Two Witnesses"

I love those verses! We sure have a great God, don't we?

As far as the secret goes, there are actually a few secrets God mentions in the Bible, the one you mentioned being one of them. But I think the secret relevant to our discussion (the one I'm thinking of anyway), is the one that God kept secret until after Jesus died, the one had the devil known about would not have killed Jesus, leaving us in a still un-redeemed state. I mention that verse in a previous post. Now if John the Baptist had known that secret, then the devil would have known it also.

The secret I'm thinking of, and, again, the one most relavent to our discussion was in fact completely hid in God until He revealed it to Paul.

Rom 16:25-26,

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

When is that now? Well if we accept the simple meaning of the word, "now" we can ascertain that the secret was made manifest when Paul was writing.

When that secret is understood correctly the scriptural story can be outlined roughly as follows:

1. God made a promise to Israel to give them a land. He vowed it would happen.
2. When the king came to establish that land, they rejected him.
3. God put His dealing and as yet unfulfilled promise on hold.
4. In the meantime, God revealed something He had under His sleeve all along, i.e. the secret, namely that not only Jews could be saved but also Gentiles and that salvation would come by grace as opposed to law.
5. This age of grace ends when Jesus gathers all Christians together into the clouds
6. Not having forgotten His promise to Israel, God takes up their cause again, this time finally fulfilling that promise once and for all.

Put another way:

Read your Bible from Genesis to John to see God's dealing with Israel. The Gentiles were without God and without hope during this time (Eph 2:11). But at the end of John the promise was left unfulfilled. Israel still had no land in which they could enjoy life with the presence of God. From John jump directly to Revelation to see how God finally fulfilled the promise. All of that deals with Israel under law.

Acts to Jude, which the above reading schedule skipped, is God dealing, not with Israel alone, but with all men. That is the time of the mystery (secret) that God revealed to Paul. It is also the only time all men could be saved by grace without the works of the law. It was the first time it was available to have Christ dwell within (Col 1:27). Obviously prior to Acts nobody could be saved as per Roman 10:9, given that that verse says we must believe God raised (past tense there) Jesus from the dead. No way Moses could have done that.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus the form of God who became incarnate flesh for a purpose. Aso here it shows God exists as the Father and also as Christ the Lord.

The Humbled and Exalted Christ​

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but [c]made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Again, all good stuff, but how does it fit with 1 Corinthians 8:6. All verses must agree or we have nothing and might as well eat, drink, and be merry.

I'm glad you quoted verse 5. Usually that verse is left out of the context of verse 6. Verse 5 says that whatever Jesus thought, we also ought to think. If Jesus thought he were God, then we, having the same mind, ought also to think we are God. Well, that is a blaring contradiction of 1 Cor 8:6 and somewhere I sure don't want to go.

God granted Jesus great power which Jesus in turn granted to us. But Jesus did not use that power to promote himself in any way. Instead he used it to help others. From the context of that section in Philippians, we can see that God is exhorting all of us to follow that example and serve others the Words of Truth. Very simple, yet very profound.

The word "equal" is never used to show oneness. By its very definition, it is used to show two entities (Jesus and God in this case):

"Agree in quantity, size, quality, degree, value, etc.; having the same magnitude, the same value, the same degree, etc" as per The Collaborative International Dictionary of English.​

​

All in all Philippians is not at all a good proof that Jesus is God. In fact, I don't know of any verse at all that could be used to prove it. A few might seem to say it, but if they actually do say Jesus is God, we are left with many thorny problems.

For example, we would be left with the difficult task of determining who the God and Father of God is.

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.​

​

Jesus has the same God as the rest of us!

2 Cor 11:31,

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.​

​

Eph 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:​

​

1Pet 1:3,

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

​

There are several other verses with the same wording, but the point is that if Jesus is God, then God has both a God and and a Father. That doesn't sound right!

But if Jesus is actually the son of God and not the extra-scriptural God the Son, we can allow all those verses, 1 Cor 8:6, and many others, to speak for themselves.

 

[Rich R]

Moses had faith, just like folks today do. People were not called "Christians" in his day, and not until believers in and followers of Christ until the first century A.D., and even then, the term was not first coined by Christians. See Acts 11:26... Jesus's disciples were first called Christians by outsiders. But people are made believers - imputed with the righteousness of Christ; justified in Him even while still dead in sin ~ and given faith by God, through the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts, and this was always true, since the time of Adam's and Eve's Fall in Genesis 3. Jesus's sacrifice was and is effectual for God's elect backward in our time from that point as well as forward. To not believe that would be far outside generally-held and accepted ~ orthodox ~ Scriptural understanding.


Faith the size of a mustard seed.


It's not. Were you thinking that I had posited that? No, my assertion would be that the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 have not happened yet; they will upon Jesus's return. The events of Revelation 20:4-6 have occurred, are occurring, and will continue to occur until Jesus comes back.


Hm. Well, connected, certainly, but yes, quite a difference, as in one leads to, or precipitates, the other.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

Thanks for the bit about faith the size of a mustard seed. That always helps when I want to believe something that appears humanly impossible.

We are asked to believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Our very salvation depends on that belief. Well, I've seen lots of dead people, but I've never witnessed with my own two eyes any of them springing back to life after being dead for three days, nor do I know anybody who has. We all "know" beyond a doubt that once someone is dead it's one way street to decay and corruption. So how in the world can I ignore everything I've always known about the dead and actualuy belive someone could be raised from death after being in the grave for three days and three nights? That's a tall order indeed! But not to worry, God has our backs. The bar God set for us morons (me anyway) is rather low. All we need is a teeny itsy bitsy amount, the size of a mustard seed to be precise. Now that I can manage. But there is also another verse I often fall back on:

Mark 9:24,

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.​

​

It worked for the father whose son was devil posessed and it has worked for me on more than one occasion. God's love and grace simply knows no bounds!

 

[Scott Downey]

1 Cor 8
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

That does not conflict with their being only One God. Jesus also says HE is ONE with God.
Christ says He i in the Father, and the Father is in Him, this caused the unbelieving Jews to seek to kill Christ

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Renewed Efforts to Stone Jesus​

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and [f]believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

God is the teacher in other verses, but here Christ says there is only One teacher, the Christ, this makes Christ equal with being God also.
Matthew 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

 

[Rich R]

There was never a Christless relationship with God for the Jews before Christ was born as a babe. If scripture be true that no man has seen God then neither did Adam and Eve in Eden. The Lord God in the garden must have been Christ. God dwells in an unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.

That's a very interesting observation. I always assumed Adam and Eve did see God, but I guess maybe not now. In fact, Genesis doesn't say anything about Adam and Eve seeing God at all. Gen 3:10 says Adam heard God (no mention of Jesus though if we accept the text as written), but hearing is not the same thing as seeing. You've given me something to ponder. I'll go sit under one of our oak trees and do that. Thanks!

 

[Scott Downey]

believe the works, that you may know and [f]believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

There is a theme here of the 2 being one GOD, which also Jesus exposes about marriage.

Mark 10:7-9

New King James Version
​

7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Paul also uses this same theme to expose that people who are joined to the Lord are One spirit with Him.

 

[Rich R]

1 Cor 8
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

That does not conflict with their being only One God. Jesus also says HE is ONE with God.

Then Jesus must be the Father. Do you find any other support for that in the scriptures? I can't think of any, but I don't know all the intricies of the scriptures. Who does?

Christ says He i in the Father, and the Father is in Him, this caused the unbelieving Jews to seek to kill Christ

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

John 17:21-22,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.​

​

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

Apparently, being one with someone else does not mean the two (or more) are the same entity. There must be some other explanation. I'm sure you've heard something like, "the mob acted as one..." Maybe two (or more) entities being one show their unity of purpose and goals?
That would sure make sense. Jesus had the same purpose and goal as his Father and he prayed we would all share in that same purpose and goal. No real mystery there.

Renewed Efforts to Stone Jesus​

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and [f]believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

Read that section carefully. Jesus never said he was God. He actually said that he was God's son, that he could do nothing without God, that he only did what his Father told him to do, and that God was greater than he was.

The Pharisees were desperate to find out something that would justify their killing Jesus (which someone claiming to be God would suffice), so they made up an outright lie, namely, that Jesus said he was God. Do you really want to side with the Pharisees and ignore Jesus' own words? I'm sure you don't.

God is the teacher in other verses, but here Christ says there is only One teacher, the Christ, this makes Christ equal with being God also.
Matthew 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

Very true. God was in Christ

I think I've quoted Colossians 1:27 several times now, but once more won't hurt:

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

​

Apparently, just like being one with someone else, having someone inside oneself, doesn't make the two entities somehow one and the same entity. In fact, both of those ideas rely on their being two different entities. Otherwise, neither would make sense.

 

[Rich R]

believe the works, that you may know and [f]believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

There is a theme here of the 2 being one GOD, which also Jesus exposes about marriage.

Sorry to keep bringing up Colossians 1:27, but I think it is highly relevant.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

​

Are we therefore actually Christ? I'm thinking not.

Mark 10:7-9​

​

New King James Version​

​

7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Paul also uses this same theme to expose that people who are joined to the Lord are One spirit with Him.

Good point. God does say a man and his wife are one. But on the other hand, every morning when my wife and I get up, I see two distinct lumps in the mattress.

I think you are right in saying it is through the spirit that we have onesnss with God with Jesus and with our spouse. I think Paul says that somewhere that the oneness of a man and his wife is a mystery, a mystery he compared to Christ and the church. That's something I've been thinking about for a long time. I'll figure it out soon enough though when Jesus returns. I have all kinds of questions for him.

Lunch time on the West Coast. God bless you brother! Love you in Christ.

 

[Rich R]

There was never a Christless relationship with God for the Jews before Christ was born as a babe. If scripture be true that no man has seen God then neither did Adam and Eve in Eden. The Lord God in the garden must have been Christ. God dwells in an unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.

I thought about no man ever seeing God. If you don't mind, I'd like to share with you a few thoughts and maybe get your input. Here goes:

Like many words we all use, the word "see"can have different meanings.

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

ὁράω, -ῶ,​

​

1. Of bodily vision, to see, perceive, behold: absol., Mar 6:38 al.; ἔρ ου καὶ ἴδε, Joh 1:46, al.; seq. ὅτι, Mar 2:16, al.; c. acc, Mat 2:2, Mar 1:10; Mar 16:7, Gal 1:19, al.; θεόν, Joh 1:18, 1Jn 4:20, al.​

​

2. to see with the mind, perceive, discern: abso1., Rom 15:21; c. acc rei., Mat 9:2; Mat 27:54, Act 8:23, Col 2:18, al.​

Strong's Concordance:

G3708 ὁράω horao (ho-raō') v.​

1. (properly) to stare at.​

2. (by implication) to clearly see or discern (physically or mentally).​

3. (thus, by extension) to clearly see to it (i.e. to take care or attend to).​

Webster's Dictionary:

To perceive by mental vision; to form an idea or​

conception of; to note with the mind; to observe; to​

discern; to distinguish; to understand; to comprehend; to​

ascertain.​

Have you ever said, "I see what you mean?" Well, you didn't mean you saw something with your eyes. You meant you understood what someone was telling you, and I think that when the context of, "no man has seen god" in John is considered it is clear that Jesus used those words in that same way.

John 1:18,

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].​

It can't really mean no man has seen God with their eyes, because there are several instances in the OT where Yahweh took on human form and was definitely seen with someone's eyes. The scholarly types call this a "theophany." For example Yahweh appeared to Abraham and Abraham saw him with his own eyes:

Gen 18:1,

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;​

There are other similar incidents, so apparently some people have in fact seen God with their eyes, which aligns with one of the ways the word "see" is used. But as all the definitions above show, perceiving with one's physical eyes is not the only way we can "see" something.

When the second part of John 1:18 is read, "the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [Him]", it becomes rather clear that Jesus was not talking about seeing with one's physical eyes. Instead he was simply saying that nobody really understood God until he arrived on the scene and made Him fully known. Moses could not have had known know God with the depth of knowledge that Jesus made available. Now while that knowledge is available today, it doesn't mean everybody automaticly knows God better than Moses (many obviously don't), but it does mean they can, it's available if they work to rightly divide the word of God as Paul exhorted Timothy to do. The Gospels and Epistles are full of knowledge that Moses could not have known. That should not be surprising.

What John 1:18 is saying is not that nobody ever saw God with their eyes, but that nobody had the depth of knowledge and understanding as those who lived after Jesus made such knowledge and understanding available. John 1:18 therefore does not contradict the several accounts in the OT that say someone did in fact see God in some form or another.

Any thoughts on that? I'd like to hear any insights you may have.

 

[Scott Downey]

I thought about no man ever seeing God. If you don't mind, I'd like to share with you a few thoughts and maybe get your input. Here goes:

Like many words we all use, the word "see"can have different meanings.

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

ὁράω, -ῶ,​

​

1. Of bodily vision, to see, perceive, behold: absol., Mar 6:38 al.; ἔρ ου καὶ ἴδε, Joh 1:46, al.; seq. ὅτι, Mar 2:16, al.; c. acc, Mat 2:2, Mar 1:10; Mar 16:7, Gal 1:19, al.; θεόν, Joh 1:18, 1Jn 4:20, al.​

​

2. to see with the mind, perceive, discern: abso1., Rom 15:21; c. acc rei., Mat 9:2; Mat 27:54, Act 8:23, Col 2:18, al.​

Strong's Concordance:

G3708 ὁράω horao (ho-raō') v.​

1. (properly) to stare at.​

2. (by implication) to clearly see or discern (physically or mentally).​

3. (thus, by extension) to clearly see to it (i.e. to take care or attend to).​

Webster's Dictionary:

To perceive by mental vision; to form an idea or​

conception of; to note with the mind; to observe; to​

discern; to distinguish; to understand; to comprehend; to​

ascertain.​

Have you ever said, "I see what you mean?" Well, you didn't mean you saw something with your eyes. You meant you understood what someone was telling you, and I think that when the context of, "no man has seen god" in John is considered it is clear that Jesus used those words in that same way.

John 1:18,

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].​

It can't really mean no man has seen God with their eyes, because there are several instances in the OT where Yahweh took on human form and was definitely seen with someone's eyes. The scholarly types call this a "theophany." For example Yahweh appeared to Abraham and Abraham saw him with his own eyes:

Gen 18:1,

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;​

There are other similar incidents, so apparently some people have in fact seen God with their eyes, which aligns with one of the ways the word "see" is used. But as all the definitions above show, perceiving with one's physical eyes is not the only way we can "see" something.

When the second part of John 1:18 is read, "the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [Him]", it becomes rather clear that Jesus was not talking about seeing with one's physical eyes. Instead he was simply saying that nobody really understood God until he arrived on the scene and made Him fully known. Moses could not have had known know God with the depth of knowledge that Jesus made available. Now while that knowledge is available today, it doesn't mean everybody automaticly knows God better than Moses (many obviously don't), but it does mean they can, it's available if they work to rightly divide the word of God as Paul exhorted Timothy to do. The Gospels and Epistles are full of knowledge that Moses could not have known. That should not be surprising.

What John 1:18 is saying is not the nobody ever saw God with their eyes, but that nobody had the depth of knowledge and understanding as those who lived after Jesus made such knowledge and understanding available. John 1:18 therefore does not contradict the several accounts in the OT that say someone did in fact see God in some form or another.

Any thoughts on that? I'd like to hear any insights you may have.

yes, we cannot see God in our eyes of flesh as God already tells us no man may see His face, appearance in his glory, and live.

God has an actual presence and a glorious appearance, yet it would destroy us in our flesh to see this now. Israe saw that on the mountain when God came down and seriously scared them with fear, God even saying no flesh could touch the mountain and live when He was there.
Exodus 19
16 Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and [c]the whole mountain quaked greatly. 19 And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice. 20 Then the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.


But we can see a theophany of God face to face, which would be Christ. Christ was not revealed as the Christ before His time though on the earth.
Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
Angels can see the face of God, and we read Satan did also. But no flesh can see God's face and survive as we are flesh and God's glory is a consuming fire of some kind, as are angels, unless an angel also takes on a human form to be seen of men.

someday believers will gain a new body like unto Christ's glorious body and it says we shall see Him as He is, for we shall be like Him.

1. Exodus 24:17
   The sight of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Deuteronomy 4:24
   For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
3. Hebrews 12:29
   For our God is a consuming fire.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

 

[Rich R]

yes, we cannot see God in our eyes of flesh as God already tells us no man may see His face, appearance in his glory, and live.

God has an actual presence and a glorious appearance, yet it would destroy us in our flesh to see this now. Israe saw that on the mountain when God came down and seriously scared them with fear, God even saying no flesh could touch the mountain and live when He was there.
Exodus 19
16 Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and [c]the whole mountain quaked greatly. 19 And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice. 20 Then the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.


But we can see a theophany of God face to face, which would be Christ. Christ was not revealed as the Christ before His time though on the earth.
Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
Angels can see the face of God, and we read Satan did also. But no flesh can see God's face and survive as we are flesh and God's glory is a consuming fire of some kind, as are angels, unless an angel also takes on a human form to be seen of men.

someday believers will gain a new body like unto Christ's glorious body and it says we shall see Him as He is, for we shall be like Him.

1. Exodus 24:17
   The sight of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Deuteronomy 4:24
   For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
3. Hebrews 12:29
   For our God is a consuming fire.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Great reminder! I hope 1 John 3:2 becomes reality before I lay my head down tonight, but if not, I'll stick around until it does.

 

[Scott Downey]

Moses was granted an exception as God called Moses to come to Him on the mountain.
However Moses when he returned to the camp was radiating the glory of the Lord in some way, maybe God had changed Moses's body to allow Moses to be with Him on the mountain. God can do whatever He wishes and has all power to make all things conform to the purpose of His will, and He willed Moses to come up onto the mountain to Him. It is also possible, Moses did not see God face to face, but was presented the LAW by angels as intermediaries, like it says in Acts.
God with His angels on the mountain, God giving to the angels the Law, and the angels giving the Law to Moses.

Acts 7:52-54​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Stephen the Martyr​

54 When they heard these things they were [a]cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.

 

[M3n0r4h]

All good stuff, but any comment on 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly says only the Father is God? Have you seen anything anywhere, inside of or outside of the scriptures, that calls Jesus the Father? I think that verse lays out pretty definitively as to who the one God is.

I know there are some verses that may be taken in a way that suggests Jesus is God. But I'm sure you will agree that the scriptures do not contradict themselves. So how can we make 1 Cor 8:6 which clearly eliminates Jesus as a candidate for God with the verses that are usually shown to say Jesus is God. They must all agree as to who Jesus is.

For example, I think John 1:1 might be considered as the mainstay for Jesus being God. Well if we take that to say Jesus really is God then we must make 1 Cor 8:6 agree. Somehow we must make that verse say that it is not just the Father that is God, but the son also is God. I'm stumped as to how we might do that. It's a pretty simple declaration, that would be hard to take it as saying the son is God. Maybe you see something there I don't see.

The other option would be to say John 1:1 does not in fact say Jesus is God, thus making it in complete agreement with John 1:1. Well that actually wouldn't be that hard. All we would need to do is read it exactly as it is written, avoiding making any substitution of one word for another. In other words, we must not read it as, "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God." That is not what the text says. It says, "In the beginning was the word (logos), an d the word (logos) was with God, and the word (logos) was God." There is not a text in existence that doesn't say it that way.

It is purely speculative to say that the logos is Jesus. The logos is the logos. It has a rather rich history, but few take the time to understand exactly what it is. There is a ton of available information on it, so there is really no excuse to not see how the people of that time and place understood it to mean.

Interestingly enough, John actually states the express purpose for writing his Gospel.

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:​

​

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

If we just let John say what it says in 1:1 and believe John's purpose for writing the things he wrote, it will not contradict 1 Corinthians 8:6, thus preserving the integrity of God's wonderful matchless word. I can't for the life of me figure out why that is considered blasphemy by the orthodox church. Not only is there no real support in the scriptures for Jesus being God, but there is no need whatsoever for making him God. The story reads just fine, way better actually, if we let Jesus be the son of God. For many reasons, it brings the message into much more clarity.

The scriptures are at heart about one man who screwed everything up and another man who made it all better. It's really much more exciting than God simply coming down and doing everything Himself. From the very beginning in Eden and throughout the entire book, God worked with human agents to accomplish His work. How wonderful a God is that places so much trust in His created human beings. No other Ancient Near East god came even close to Yahweh in that regard. They all just used and abused humans. Our God is not like that though. He worked with humans for some 4,000 years before He could get a man by his free will to finally say, "Not my will, but thine be done." As great as that statement actually is, and as great as the man who spoke those words is, it would become utterly meaningless if Jesus were God. I mean, how many wills does God have? One, two, more? I vote for one. While in Gethseme that night, Jesus had a will that was actually diametrically opposed to God. Who wouldn't want to avoid such a horrible death Jesus was soon to face? But, though tempted just like the rest of us, he subjugated his will to that of his Father's. Absolutely mind boggling in my book!

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

The man Jesus is the mediator. The one God is the God. What could be more clear than that?

I already made it very clear in this thread that if you do not believe Jesus is God, then your religion is not Christianity - it cannot be by definition. I made it so simple and clear that a child could understand it.

yet here you are again, going on and on, making your case that Jesus Christ is not God.

there is also a rule here that you cannot debate that Jesus is not God.

you don't like anybody claiming that you cannot be a Christian if you do not believe in Christ, but you are not allowed to go about declaring that Jesus is not God either.

the vast majority of members on this site do not appreciate people preaching and teaching that Jesus is not God here. would you like me to further explain how and why you are not a Christian if you don't believe Christ is God?

 

[PinSeeker]

We are asked to believe God raised Jesus from the dead. Our very salvation depends on that belief.

See, I disagree with you here, Rich. Let me ask you a question. Which comes first in a person, belief or faith? Before you answer this, read all the way to the end of this post. At any rate, you might also remember what Paul says in Romans 9:16-18, that it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

Well, I've seen lots of dead people, but I've never witnessed with my own two eyes any of them springing back to life after being dead for three days, nor do I know anybody who has. We all "know" beyond a doubt that once someone is dead it's one way street to decay and corruption. So how in the world can I ignore everything I've always known about the dead and actualuy belive someone could be raised from death after being in the grave for three days and three nights? That's a tall order indeed! But not to worry, God has our backs. The bar God set for us morons (me anyway) is rather low.

All we need is a teeny itsy bitsy amount, the size of a mustard seed to be precise...

Well, even the smallest amount possible; any faith at all... that's the point. Because it's the gift of God, and if you have been given faith ~ which is a gift of the Spirit, apportioned to each man per God's will, so the size of men's faith varies from person to person ~ then even the smallest faith is sufficient:

Romans 12:3 ~ "...think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned..."​

1 Corinthians 12:9-11 ~ "...to another faith by the same Spirit... All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills..."​

Now that I can manage.

Well, Rich, in and of yourself, you cannot "manage," and neither can I. But, with God, all things are possible.

But there is also another verse I often fall back on:

Mark 9:24,

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.​

​

It worked for the father whose son was devil possessed and it has worked for me on more than one occasion. God's love and grace simply knows no bounds!

Well, again, you should read what you read here while keeping in mind what Jesus said in John 10:22-26 to the Jews at the Feast of Dedication:

"The Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' And Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.'"​

Take close notice of the order there. They don't believe because they are not among Jesus's sheep, those given Him by the Father. The order there is undeniable and irrefutable ~ and very, very important. It is not that they are not among Jesus's sheep because they don't believe, but rather, they don't believe because they are not among Jesus's sheep.

So, regarding Mark 9:24, God calls who He calls, and they are the ones who believe. And then, because we are all imperfect beings ~ with a sin nature, as you yourself acknowledged ~ even our belief is imperfect, so we can all pray, even constantly, in the same way, that, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief."

But still, the larger point of all this is, our belief is a result of God having had mercy on us and the Holy Spirit working in us to produce faith. So faith is the first thing, and what it necessary for us to believe. It does not depend on us, it depends on God. Not to say it's not necessary for us to believe, but our belief is not the root of our salvation.

The bar God set for us morons (me anyway) is rather low.

Disagree with this, too... Does Jesus not say, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48)? I'd say that bar is unfathomably high. But yes, if you are in Christ, you are accredited His righteousness ~ just as Abraham was, and all of his seed through the child of the promise, Isaac ~ including Moses ~ and you are being and will ultimately be conformed to Christ ~ just like Abraham and Moses and all the saints who have gone on before and will before He returns.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...yet here you are again, going on and on, making your case that Jesus Christ is not God....

He will not allow for what Paul says to the Philippians, that He laid aside His position as the second Person of the Godhead for our sake, that even though He was (and is) God in the flesh, He completely disregarded His deity for our sake ~ and it is in this sense that He could say the Father was His God. It's quite astounding, but different folks deny Christ in different ways.

Grace and peace to you, M3n0r4h.

 

[Rich R]

See, I disagree with you here, Rich. Let me ask you a question. Which comes first in a person, belief or faith? Before you answer this, read all the way to the end of this post. At any rate, you might also remember what Paul says in Romans 9:16-18, that it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.




Well, even the smallest amount possible; any faith at all... that's the point. Because it's the gift of God, and if you have been given faith ~ which is a gift of the Spirit, apportioned to each man per God's will, so the size of men's faith varies from person to person ~ then even the smallest faith is sufficient:

Romans 12:3 ~ "...think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned..."​

1 Corinthians 12:9-11 ~ "...to another faith by the same Spirit... All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills..."​

Well, Rich, in and of yourself, you cannot "manage," and neither can I. But, with God, all things are possible.


Well, again, you should read what you read here while keeping in mind what Jesus said in John 10:22-26 to the Jews at the Feast of Dedication:

"The Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' And Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.'"​

Take close notice of the order there. They don't believe because they are not among Jesus's sheep, those given Him by the Father. The order there is undeniable and irrefutable ~ and very, very important. It is not that they are not among Jesus's sheep because they don't believe, but rather, they don't believe because they are not among Jesus's sheep.

So, regarding Mark 9:24, God calls who He calls, and they are the ones who believe. And then, because we are all imperfect beings ~ with a sin nature, as you yourself acknowledged ~ even our belief is imperfect, so we can all pray, even constantly, in the same way, that, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief."

But still, the larger point of all this is, our belief is a result of God having had mercy on us and the Holy Spirit working in us to produce faith. So faith is the first thing, and what it necessary for us to believe. It does not depend on us, it depends on God. Not to say it's not necessary for us to believe, but our belief is not the root of our salvation.


Disagree with this, too... Does Jesus not say, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48)? I'd say that bar is unfathomably high. But yes, if you are in Christ, you are accredited His righteousness ~ just as Abraham was, and all of his seed through the child of the promise, Isaac ~ including Moses ~ and you are being and will ultimately be conformed to Christ ~ just like Abraham and Moses and all the saints who have gone on before and will before He returns.

Grace and peace to you.

I guess we disagree on a whole bunch of things. I thought for sure you'd believe everything I say by now. Just kidding!

 

[Rich R]

I already made it very clear in this thread that if you do not believe Jesus is God, then your religion is not Christianity - it cannot be by definition. I made it so simple and clear that a child could understand it.

I think you are suggesting I'm a child.

From the Forum rules:

"No insults are allowed. Included in this are all forms of flaming, harassment, and trolling/goading as determined at the discretion of the Christianity Board Team. Trolling/Goading is defined as repeated attempts through the use of images, cartoons, smileys or text that is designed to be explicitly demeaning, patronizing, embarrassing, or otherwise upsetting to a member or group of members in the community."​

yet here you are again, going on and on, making your case that Jesus Christ is not God.

I'm mostly just quoting scripture. People can believe whatever they want.

there is also a rule here that you cannot debate that Jesus is not God.

Sorry, but there really is no such rule. But there is this:

"Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians."​

​

We already talked about that before and you said you don't care. You said you had no problem disrespecting the rules or the owners of the Forum. What more can I say about that?

you don't like anybody claiming that you cannot be a Christian if you do not believe in Christ, but you are not allowed to go about declaring that Jesus is not God either.

I don't care what people think. I think I already mentioned:

1 Cor 4:3-4,

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.​

​

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.​

the vast majority of members on this site do not appreciate people preaching and teaching that Jesus is not God here.

Well those folks can always block me if it's that offensive. As a bonus, that would save us all a lot of time. It's easy enough to do. Besides, cancel culture is the rule du jour.

would you like me to further explain how and why you are not a Christian if you don't believe Christ is God?

No. It'd be an exercise in futility.

 

[M3n0r4h]

I think you are suggesting I'm a child.

Christ says we must become as a child before we can learn His Truth about all things.

No. It'd be an exercise in futility.

oh, don't be so hard on yourself.

you're not hopeless. you're just lost.

as are all who don't believe Jesus is God.

you'll continue to justify it to yourself, and to use any and all scripture you can cherry pick to fabricate your case and struggle to convince yourself, and as many others as possible, but none of it will help, nor make you feel any better about your plight.

until you accept Jesus Christ as God, your life will be an endless charade of one falsehood after another; empty, meaningless motion after empty, meaningless motion.

there is always hope, but first you must humble yourself dramatically and accept that Christ is God and let go of all your stubborn ways to allow Him to teach you and guide you into humility.

the journey is long, and very painful, but it's worth every moment.

are you ready to let go of your haughty, prideful, stubborn and arrogant nature?

would you like to start today?