Rich R
Well-Known Member
So Jesus is "God the Father" who, as per 1 Cor 8:6, is the only true God? And no explanation for how God will be subject to God?
Maybe come up with something of substance instead of baseless accusations.
Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?
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Maybe come up with something of substance instead of baseless accusations.
I quoted a simple Scripture and you call it "baseless accusations". Hmm
Are you another Watch Tower victim?
Hebrews 1:5-10
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Jesus is God!
But I can and have, and I am by no means alone. No, there is no "hard quote" ~ exact words ~ in the Bible that says ~ say ~ "Jesus is God," and no hard quote ~ again, exact verbiage ~ from Jesus Himself saying "I am God." But the exact words needn't be said to achieve the purpose, the effect. And I would say, too, as I have said before, that achieving the effect is far more effective than just merely saying the exact words. At the very least, we would all certainly agree that so often, actions speak louder than words, that what we do speaks volumes more about who and what we are than what we merely say. Jesus does indisputably ~ yet some will still argue otherwise... until Jesus comes back...
~ attribute all the qualities of God to Himself (including the name of God in John 8:58), and demonstrates them, over and over and over again, in His actions. But some will still say, "Oh, but show us a sign...!" Or, "Hey, just tell us plainly...!" ...in your opinion, Rich... And I have explained that your opinion regarding these verses is quite in error, and yet you continue in you're... Well, you "soldier on"...
O....kaaaay... LOL! Sure!
But there's a Reason for that reason, as it were... LOL!Um, well, God is His own arbiter. So yes, my filter when reading God's Word is God Himself, and His Word, Who...
... was in the beginning the Word, and with God, and God.Ohhhh, here it comes yet again...
In Philippians 2, Paul's context is clearly much, much more than that. Words ~ in any language, Rich ~ are not so woodenly simple as some would make them out to be. It actually ~ correctly ~ means an outward manifestation of an inward reality. Both Mark 16:12 and Philippians 2:6-7 are appropriate citations.
He was and is both. He was tempted in every way we are, but, because He was God even while in the flesh as able to perfectly resist temptation of every kind and remain without sin... the Lamb without blemish. This qualifies Him as Mediator between God and man.
Does it not say "though He was in the form of God," Rich? So even the most hard-headed person would have to concede that, even if they think Paul was delusional when he wrote his letter to the Philippians, that Paul is saying that Jesus was in/of both "forms" at the same time...
Much agreed; the Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Son.
On we go...
Whatever happened to you "bowing out gracefully," Rich? Grace and peace to you, Rich.
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the confusion. The baseless accusation I referred to was, "No, YOU are wrong."
No. I just study the Bible.
Do a study on what "worship" means in the Bible. You need to look at the Greek word. If you do that, you will find several examples of one man "worshiping" another man.
Do another study on how the Ancient Near East used the word "god." It is not the same as most in the Modern West think, and since the scriptures were written to them and not us, we ought to understand the scriptures in their terms. Maybe this will get you started:
John 10:35,
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Also, another hint lies in 1 Cor 8:5 where it says there are many gods.Read the verse very carefully. It is referring to Jesus and it says his God has anointed him with oil. So, according to you (and many others), Jesus has a God. Now if Jesus has a God and Jesus is God, then how does God not have some other God that anointed Him? Along those same lines, I offer:
Heb 1:9,
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
John 20:17,
Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (Jesus and us share the same God).
Rom 15:6,
that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:3,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;
2 Cor 11:31.
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Eph 1:3,
Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:17,
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Col 1:3,
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
1 Pet 1:3,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Rev 1:6 (ERV),
and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 3:12,
He that overcometh, I (Jesus) will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
So Jesus clearly has a God and a Father, the same God and Father as you and I have according to John 20:17. Do you really mean to say God has a God and a Father, the same ones we all have? If so, who might that be? Seems like whoever it might be, he would be more powerful than Yahweh. Wouldn't it then wise to direct our prayers and praise to that guy?
No need to resort to JW literature. Nor is it a good idea to resort to 4th century councils. One only need look to the scriptures to learn who Jesus is. They say over and over that he is the son of God. What's wrong with that? Sounds OK to me.
I've answered directly to the verses you've sent me, while you've not addressing any of the one I've sent you. Maybe you could return the favor and explain how Jesus is now "God the Father" (1 Cor 8:6) as well as who is God's God and father (all the verses I quoted that says Jesus has both). Honestly, if you don't care to do that and just keep sending me more verses that contradict the clear verses I gave you, I have no desire to go any further with this. Besides, I have the feeling I'm offending you and, you being my brother, I don't want to do that.
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
As opposed to several "hard quotes" that say Jesus is a man as well as a "hard quote" that says God is not a man? That doesn't mean anything to you? Honestly, I don't know what more to say to you about this. Maybe some other subject, some other time.
So you're saying our Bibles are mistranslations.
It's quite dangerous to call Jesus a false god.
1 Timothy 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
And none of that denies that Jesus is God.
John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I guess you missed my post asking for explainations of the many verses I gave you instead of just throwing more verses at me?
Another non sequitur. There is no "opposition"... this is a dichotomy where there is none, manufactured, as it were. So it goes...
The trouble is that these things mean nothing to you. Which speaks volumes... no hard quote necessary.
This wasn't addressed to me, but, hey ~ as if I didn't before... ~ now you're complaining about actually being given verses, Rich? Come on, man, you can do better than that...
Well, I do. I know what you can/should say...
Sure.
Grace and peace to you, Rich.
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Why don't we take it one or two verses at a time?
Luke 4:8 (NKJV)
8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.' "
Hebrews 1:6 (NKJV)
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Same Greek word!
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is better to handle a couple of verses at a time. Good idea!
That Greek word is also used in a couple of verses where one man "worships" another man.
Matt 18:26,
The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Rev 3:9,Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
There are more examples in the OT of one man worshiping another man.Gen 23:7,
And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, [even] to the children of Heth.
The words "bowed himself" in the Septuagint are the same Greek word used for "worship" in the NT, "proskuneo."
Gen 27:29, (Septuagint)
Let people serve thee, and nations bow down (proskuneo) to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down (proskuneo) to thee: cursed [be] every one that curseth thee, and blessed [be] he that blesseth thee.
The Hebrew word used in those verses is, "shachah" which Strong's defines as:H7812 שָׁחָה shachah (shaw-chaw') v.
1. to depress, crouch.
2. (especially reflexive) to fall prostrate to (in homage to royalty or God).
There are many other verses where one man "shachah" another man.
All it means is to pay homage to a someone considered a superior. Very common Jewish custom. Remember, the early church was thoroughly Jewish, so they would have thought the same way. We try to make it fit with our Modern West culture, but obviously they were not the Modern West.
It is often said that the scriptures say we must worship only God. The idea is base on these two verses:
Matt 4:10,
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 4:8,And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
But neither of those verses say anything of the sort. Both say God is the only one whom we must serve. "Serve" is a different Greek word altogether. Serving is not worshiping and worshiping is not serving.The false idea that the Bible says only God can be worshiped is so strong that that one commentary used the following verse to "prove" only God can be worshiped:
1 Chr 16:25,
For great [is] the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also [is] to be feared above all gods.
Again, that verse says nothing of the sort. A preconceived idea is read into the scriptures. Such is the power of tradition over truth.By the way, notice that 1 Chr 16:25 also says there are other gods besides Yahweh. While not so in the Modern West, that was a well know truth in the Ancient Near East. Remember, God wrote to them in their terms. We dare not hijack the scriptures by using Modern Western thinking. This idea may also be considered when reading John 20:28.
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
You're right about that. Got you mixed up with someone else.
But I did say this to you for sure:
"Honestly, I don't know what more to say to you about this. Maybe some other subject, some other time."
Instead of accepting my desire to graciously end this conversation, you use those words in a vain attempt to mock me, even adding a gif, which like some other gif you posted before, I have no idea what it means. Just say what you mean. But you may want to consider the old adage, "if you have nothing kind to say, don't say anything."
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