Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

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PinSeeker

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Rich, I understand by scripture that the gifts of the Spirit are different than the fruit of the Spirit. You quoted what the fruit of the Spirit is, but you didn't quote what the gifts are.
You might want to your check your wording.
Was it a typo, in that something didn't copy and paste that you intended?

EDIT: Sorry about that, I just found your reference of 1 Cor. 12:7-10. That's what I get for interjecting.
Well, you replied to me, here, but I'm not Rich... :)

Yes, the gifts of the Spirit include specific things like knowledge, wisdom, mercy, teaching... specific things that the Spirit has purposely gifted us with so that we are then able to bless other people by (and they us) in the ways (which may or may not be the same) in which they are gifted. The fruit of the Spirit is more the manner in which these things ~ and everything we do ~ are done... in and with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I have no idea what you mean by anyone "checking their wording," or typos, or what you may have thought was copied and pasted.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Earburner

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Well, you replied to me, here, but I'm not Rich... :)

Yes, the gifts of the Spirit include specific things like knowledge, wisdom, mercy, teaching... specific things that the Spirit has purposely gifted us with so that we are then able to bless other people by (and they us) in the ways (which may or may not be the same) in which they are gifted. The fruit of the Spirit is more the manner in which these things ~ and everything we do ~ are done... in and with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I have no idea what you mean by anyone "checking their wording," or typos, or what you may have thought was copied and pasted.

Grace and peace to you.
No, it was nothing but a mess up on my part.
Sometimes, for me anyways, in a long post of posting to individual phrases, paragraphs of someone's reply, I accidently select under the wrong person.
Thanks for your reply though. As for the copy and paste situation, It's nonexistent. I went back and found his ref. of 1 Cor. I2, and edited that post.
 
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Earburner

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John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​



Mark 10:17-18,

17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?​
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.​



Do you have any verses on that? I couldn't find any.



2 Cor 3:18,

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.​


Eph 1:19,

And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,​


Eph 1:19,

And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,​
John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​



John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​



Ever hear of an actor goring THROUGH his agent to get the part?


No such thing as "mere" man, let alone the only one who always obeyed God.

Gen 1:27,

So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.​
Ps 8:5,

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.​



Who gave it to Jesus, aka, God? Is there some other god who gave his powers to God? Maybe Zeus? I don't know. You tell me.



Something we all can't do? Chapter and verse please.

So I quoted about 6 verses that specifically calls Jesus a man. Do you have any that call him specifically God?

I also quoted a couple of verses that specifically say God is NOT a man. But Jesus is a man. So someone who is not a man is a man?



I found something from a trinitarian scholar you might find interesting:

"This statement by our Lord to the Jews clearly affirms His preincarnate state or preexistence as the eternal Son of God. It will be noted that Christ’s existence prior to becoming a human being is nowhere in Scripture argued as a doctrine, but is everywhere assumed and used as the basis of the doctrines of the incarnation, hypostaticunion and atonement for sin."

Nowhere in the actual scriptures does it say Jesus existed prior to becoming. But who needs scripture? Assumptions rule when it comes to trinitatian doctrine. Absolutely stunning admission! At least he was honest and didn't try twisting a few isolated verses to say it's actually in there. The funny part is that he went on for another 285 pages justifying this assumption. The jaws of tradition are powerful indeed.

By the way, he is not alone among trinitarian scholars who agree with him about the lack of actual scripture proving Jesus is Goactuallyd. Most non-scholars will never admit that fact. For most trinity comes first and the scriptures a distant second. But who needs scripture when we have Greek philosophy?
Actually, the correct view is the Binitarian view. God the Father in Jesus, and together they are One, being themselves Holy Spirit.
John 14
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.
Together, through the Immortal flesh of Jesus, the Living Veil (Heb. 10:20) for both God the Father and us, they are the Holy Spirit, aka the NEW Heaven, of which had never been before.
Jesus Himself is now the literal "House of His Father", God's permanent dwelling place. When one receives Jesus as their Savior, the Holy Spirit of God the Father within Him, COMES WITH HIM, thus fulfilling Rev. 3:20, John 14:23.
 
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Rich R

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Can you ~ or any mere human being ~ make the blind to see, RIch? Make the deaf hear? Make the lame leap for joy? Make the mute tongue sing? Turn water into wine? Feed over 20,000 folks with five loaves of bread and two fish? Walk on water? Command the wind and the waves ~ nature itself ~ and have them ~ it ~ obey? Much less confer salvation upon another person... You can do these things? And of course He accepted and welcomed praise and worship of Himself...
2 Tim 3:1-5,

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.​
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,​
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,​
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;​
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

  • True humility is believing and accepting the things of God with praise and thanksgiving.
  • False humility, a close kin of pride that puffs up, always denies the gifts and calling of God, choosing instead the wisdom of men.
 
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PinSeeker

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Actually, the correct view is the Binitarian view. God the Father in Jesus, and together they are One, being themselves Holy Spirit.
John 14
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.
Together, through the Immortal flesh of Jesus, the Living Veil (Heb. 10:20) for both God the Father and us, they are the Holy Spirit, aka the NEW Heaven, of which had never been before.
Jesus Himself is now the literal "House of His Father", God's permanent dwelling place. When one receives Jesus as their Savior, the Holy Spirit of God the Father within Him, COMES WITH HIM, thus fulfilling Rev. 3:20, John 14:23.
Jesus clearly refers to the Holy Spirit as another Person/Helper aside from ~ but one with ~ the Father and Himself in John 14. The third person personal pronouns are unmistakeable... "He," "Him," "Who," etc... at the very least the Holy Spirit is Someone distinct from Jesus Himself. Yes, the Father and the Son are present with us in the Spirit ~ because the Spirit is one with the Father and the Son, in the Father and the Father in Him, just as Jesus says of Himself.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Rich R

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You mean trinitarian scholars who are not trinitarians, who have a bias against trinitarianism and therefore a vested, personal interest in refuting it? Yeah, not interested. :)
No. Most scholarly trinitarians would say that there is no clear cut decleartions of the trinity (the actual word, nor any of the other words used to describe it are MIA for starters) in the scriptures. Mostly because there isn't. But they claim the trinity can be "derived" from the scriptures. I know of people that "derived" aliens landing on the earth from Ezekiel.
 

Rich R

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If he laid aside His being in the form of God and took on the form of man for man's sake, so as to be mediator between God and man, yes, absolutely.
If you're referring to Philippians, notice it says we should think and be the same way (Phil 2:5). Trinitarians yank verse 6 totally out of context so as to "prove" a preconceived idea.
 

Rich R

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Despite them being as plain as the nose on your face, yes, I'm painfully aware.
But no actual verses for me?

Need I remind you yet again that Jesus is expressly called a man some 6 times? That hieis not once is he expressly called God? That God is expressly said to not be a man? So where does it say both were god-men? Please, just one declaration as those I've given you. You know, something like, "there is one mediator between God and man, the man-god Christ Jesus." instead of the actual words, "there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

Also it'd be good if you could give me a verse where God changed His mind about not being a man or the son of man. Something that would actually be as plain as the nose on my face.
 

Earburner

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Jesus clearly refers to the Holy Spirit as another Person/Helper aside from ~ but one with ~ the Father and Himself in John 14. The third person personal pronouns are unmistakeable... "He," "Him," "Who," etc... at the very least the Holy Spirit is Someone distinct from Jesus Himself. Yes, the Father and the Son are present with us in the Spirit ~ because the Spirit is one with the Father and the Son, in the Father and the Father in Him, just as Jesus says of Himself.

Grace and peace to you.
Let's keep it simple.
The immortal flesh of Jesus is the living "veil" between God the Father and us. Heb. 10:20
No man can come to the Father except through Jesus, hence the need for us to HAVE the literal Spirit of Christ within us. Rom. 8:8-9.

Therefore God the Father needed the sacrifice of His Son, JUST AS MUCH as we need Him as Savior, otherwise God Himself, who is a Spirit, could NEVER dwell within us at all, which has always been HIS deepest desire. That is why God said through John the Baptist that Jesus was "the Lamb OF God". Jesus was God's sacrifice for us, as well as for Himself.

God the Father was to dwell within Jesus' mortal flesh FIRST, of which was proved by baptism and the works that HE did, and the words HE spoke through Jesus.

Quite literally, when Jesus said "In my Father's House....", He was speaking of HIMSELF. To usward, Jesus is the permanent dwelling place of the Holy Spirit of God the Father. And now that they dwell together as One, in the immortality of Jesus, THEY together as one, are Holy Spirit together.

When WE open the "door" of our heart (our self will) and INVITE Jesus in through that door, God the Father, who abides in Jesus, COMES WITH Him.
Why do you think Jesus had no home/house to dwell in and no place to rest His head?
God the Father, Who spoke through Jesus, was exemplifying HIS NEED of a "House" to dwell in, which was His Son, and then US, for all who desire to be born again of God's Holy Spirit, who dwells within Jesus AS ONE.
Rev. 3
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
John 14
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

There is no "add on" Spirit of the Godhead!!
It is simply God the Father dwelling in His Immortal Son, who BOTH then dwell together within the Born Again believer.
 
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PinSeeker

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When the Pharisees asked who was the blind man that Jesus healed, he said, "I am he." That would make the blind man also God?
He did not assign the name of God to himself, Rich. Jesus, however, did. So, no, to your quite ridiculous question here.

What thin threads Trinitarians grasp!
What endless, egregious misrepresentations of what Trinitarians grasp!

Forget all the other verses I've quoted that would make it impossible for Jesus to be God.
Yes, I've forgotten ~ dismissed, really ~ your misrepresentations, because they were (and still are)... misguided.

I suppose John 8:58 couldn't possibly be Jesus affirming all the other I ams in John? Of course not! It just has means Jesus is God, because we already know he is.
Well, what Jesus says in John 8:58 is in the middle of the other seven aforementioned I am statements of Jesus. But yes, Jesus saying in effect that He is God means Jesus is God. :)

No. Most scholarly trinitarians would say that there is no clear cut declartions of the trinity (the actual word, nor any of the other words used to describe it are MIA for starters) in the scriptures.
But they would wholeheartedly affirm that God clearly portrays Himself as One God in three distinct Persons, and that each of those Persons is in the two other Persons. Derived? Well, it just is what it is.

I know of people that "derived" aliens landing on the earth from Ezekiel.
There are some nuts out there, for sure... :)

Do you realize I merely quoted a verse. And you want to argue?
No, I'm saying you're creating an argument where there is not one. That's a problem. But so be it.

Well, since I didn't write the verse, find out who did and take up with him.
Well, since all Scripture is God-breathed, then we know Who was the Author of the verse. The two verses, 2 Corinthians 3:18 and Isaiah 42:8, which you seem wont to say God contradicts Himself between the two. So I can say what I said, but yes, maybe you should take it up with Him.

But no actual verses for me?
Are you being serious right now? Wow.

...it'd be good if you could give me a verse where God changed His mind about not being a man or the son of man. Something that would actually be as plain as the nose on my face.
Reminds me of those who, having witnessed Jesus's miracles, said, "But hey, give us a sign! Please!" :) Or in John 10, when they want him to tell them plainly that He is the Christ, and He answers them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep..." Now, that may or may not be true of you, Rich, but it's hard to see otherwise right now...

Grace and peace to you, Rich.
 
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PinSeeker

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If you're referring to Philippians, notice it says we should think and be the same way (Phil 2:5). Trinitarians yank verse 6 totally out of context so as to "prove" a preconceived idea.
Well, yes, think the same way as Christ ~ Paul exhorts us to "have this mind among ourselves" ~ which is to be of the mind that he has just described, to "do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than ourselves, to look not only to our own interests, but also to the interests of others." So yes, we emulate Christ in this way. It's unitarians who make the context into something it's not. And there are so many other passages they do this to. It's quite astounding.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Earburner

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...By... complicating it? LOL!

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.
The Binitarian view is very simple, crystal clear and scriptural. It's only complicated in your mind, because you are trying to hold onto the Trinitarian view of religion, causing your own defense mechanisms to fall back onto yourself.
 
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PinSeeker

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Rich R

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He did not assign the name of God to himself, Rich. Jesus, however, did. So, no, to your quite ridiculous question here.


What endless, egregious misrepresentations of what Trinitarians grasp!


Yes, I've forgotten ~ dismissed, really ~ your misrepresentations, because they were (and still are)... misguided.


Well, what Jesus says in John 8:58 is in the middle of the other seven aforementioned I am statements of Jesus. But yes, Jesus saying in effect that He is God means Jesus is God. :)


But they would wholeheartedly affirm that God clearly portrays Himself as One God in three distinct Persons, and that each of those Persons is in the two other Persons. Derived? Well, it just is what it is.


There are some nuts out there, for sure... :)


No, I'm saying you're creating an argument where there is not one. That's a problem. But so be it.


Well, since all Scripture is God-breathed, then we know Who was the Author of the verse. The two verses, 2 Corinthians 3:18 and Isaiah 42:8, which you seem wont to say God contradicts Himself between the two. So I can say what I said, but yes, maybe you should take it up with Him.


Are you being serious right now? Wow.


Reminds me of those who, having witnessed Jesus's miracles, said, "But hey, give us a sign! Please!" :) Or in John 10, when they want him to tell them plainly that He is the Christ, and He answers them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep..." Now, that may or may not be true of you, Rich, but it's hard to see otherwise right now...

Grace and peace to you, Rich.
Since you really can't can't come up with any scripture that clearly say Jesus is God, nor can you explain all the clear verses that make such an assertion quite impossible (and I've only given you a fraction of such verses), I think the only reason you keep saying Jesus is God is because you just believe he is God. That's your filter when reading God's word.
 

Jack

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Since you really can't can't come up with any scripture that clearly say Jesus is God, nor can you explain all the clear verses that make such an assertion quite impossible (and I've only given you a fraction of such verses), I think the only reason you keep saying Jesus is God is because you just believe he is God. That's your filter when reading God's word.
John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God".
 

Rich R

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John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God".
Thus making the following verses wrong:

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​
John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​
If Thomas was referring to Jesus, then we must assume that 1 Cor 8:6 is wrong, that the so-called God the Son is also the one God. We must further assume that in John God (actually Jesus) was talking to some other God, saying that God was the only true God. Gets complicated very quickly that way though.

Maybe there is some way of making Thomas' words fit with the other 2 verses (and many others like them), so as to not create a needless contradiction. I think there is.

It is assumed Thomas was referring t Jesus when he said those words, but maybe he wasn't. Ever hear one person say to another person, "My God, are you kidding me...," or something like that. Perhaps you've made such a statement yourself. It's mot uncommon. So if we understand that Thomas wasn't calling Jesus anything, but just making a statement of surprise, it would fit with 1 Cor 8:6 and John 17:3 as well as many other verses that would make it impossible for Jesus to be God. I'll throw one out there now:

1 Cor 15:28,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

God subject to God? How does that work?
 

Rich R

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Well, yes, think the same way as Christ ~ Paul exhorts us to "have this mind among ourselves" ~ which is to be of the mind that he has just described, to "do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than ourselves, to look not only to our own interests, but also to the interests of others." So yes, we emulate Christ in this way. It's unitarians who make the context into something it's not. And there are so many other passages they do this to. It's quite astounding.

Grace and peace to you.
If Philippians said: "Who, being God, thought it not robbery to be God:" you would have something onto which you could grasp.
But it doesn't say that. It it actually says, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

Maybe we could see what it means to be in the form of something. It is the Greek word "morphe" Here's how Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament defines it.

μορφή, -ῆς, ἡ,​
[in LXX: Jdg 8:18 A (H8389), Job 4:16 (H8544), Isa 44:13 (H8403), Da LXX Dan 3:19 (H6754), Da TH Dan 4:33; Dan 5:6; Dan 5:9-10; Dan 7:28 (H2122), Tob 1:13, Wis 18:1, 4Ma 15:4 *;]​
form, shape, appearance (Hom., Eur., . sch., al.); in philos. lang. the specific character or essential form (Arist., v. Gifford, Inc., 26 ff.) : Mar 16:12, Php 2:6-7.†​
SYN.: μόρφωσις G3446*, the outline, delineation, semblance of the μορφή G3444*, as distinct from the μ. itself (Lft., Notes, 262); σχῆμα G4976*, shape, fashion, disting. from μορφή as the outward and accidental from the inward and essential (cf. Tr., Syn., § LXX; Lft., Phi., 125 ff.; Gifford., Inc., l.c.).​
Essentially it means an outward appearance. But let's do more research and see if that word is used elsewhere in the scriptures that may help understand how God uses the that word. What man says doesn't mean anything when it comes to the scriptures. We ought to let them speak for themselves.

While appearing to a few of his disciples after his resurrection, we can read the following:

Mark 16:12,

After that he appeared in another form (morphe) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.​
Also, right there in Philippians 2 we see:

Phil 2:7,

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​
If one thing being in the form of another thing means the two things are one and the same, we have a huge problem. Was Jesus no longer God when he spoke to his disciples while in another form? In Philippians, right after it supposedlyh says Jesus was God, was he suddenly no longer be God, but a servant instead?

I'll let you research for yourself as to what "equal" means, but I can tell you it doesn't mean "is."
 
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