Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

[M3n0r4h]

As much as I'd like to discuss the nature of Jesus, what I would have to say is verboten in this forum.

for good reason.

this is a Christian forum.

it would make no sense to allow a satanist here teaching anti-Jesus doctrine.

interestingly, Israel is 99% atheist and they are making it a Law that nobody can even speak Jesus' name.

 

[Rich R]

John 17:16,

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.​

​

Jesus is talking about those who believe what he says. As far as I can tall, like Jesus, they are also not of this world. Are they all therefore God?

To be clear, I'm not saying Jesus isn't God, but we should be careful which verses we use to say he is. In light of John 17:16, I just don't think John 8:23 is the best verse to use for saying Jesus is God.

 

[Rich R]

for good reason.

this is a Christian forum.

it would make no sense to allow a satanist here teaching anti-Jesus doctrine.

interestingly, Israel is 99% atheist and they are making it a Law that nobody can even speak Jesus' name.

I understand the reasoning and like I said, I have no problem with the rules.

I'm curious, where did you get the statistic that says 99% of Jews are atheist? I always thought that, though often wrong about God, Israel certainly had a heart for Him. I do believe Jesus will consider their heart when judging them. Jesus, like his Father, will not judge like people judge. That's a good thing for all of us! People can be absolutely vicious when it comes to judgement.

 

[Rich R]

it would make no sense to allow a satanist here teaching anti-Jesus doctrine.

Funny you bring that up. The Pharisees accused Jesus of working with a devil.

Matt 12:24,

​

But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.​

​

Perhaps you may want to tone down the rhetoric just a bit? Remember, we will all have to answer for what we say to each other in this life.

 

[M3n0r4h]

I'm curious, where did you get the statistic that says 99% of Jews are atheist? I always thought that, though often wrong about God, Israel certainly had a heart for Him.

no, they have no heart for Him at all.

they absolutely hate Him.

I was speaking of the state of Israel. it's a pretty well known statistic.

Google religious statistics for the state of Israel. see what you find. maybe I'm a bit off, but the overwhelming majority there are atheist.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Funny you bring that up. The Pharisees accused Jesus of working with a devil.

Matt 12:24,

​

But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.​

​

Perhaps you may want to tone down the rhetoric just a bit? Remember, we will all have to answer for what we say to each other in this life.

I didn't even have to make any accusation.

I was responding directly to two posts commenting about not believing Jesus is God.

did you reply that I was mistaken in that?

I guess I missed that.

let's clear it up.

DO YOU believe Jesus is God?

 

[M3n0r4h]

John 17:16,

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.​

​

Jesus is talking about those who believe what he says. As far as I can tall, like Jesus, they are also not of this world. Are they all therefore God?

To be clear, I'm not saying Jesus isn't God, but we should be careful which verses we use to say he is. In light of John 17:16, I just don't think John 8:23 is the best verse to use for saying Jesus is God.

why would you throw out a random verse of your choosing, John 17:16, and declare that it doesn't support my position?

I made no reference to John 8:23 either.

your whole argument fell flat there.

 

[Rich R]

no, they have no heart for Him at all.

they absolutely hate Him.

I was speaking of the state of Israel. it's a pretty well known statistic.

Google religious statistics for the state of Israel. see what you find. maybe I'm a bit off, but the overwhelming majority there are atheist.

I checked out the statistics from the Pew Research Center. Although not as bad as you said, it is nonetheless pretty dismal. Overall only about 30% of Jews in Israel go to Synagogue on a regular basis. As might be expected, the younger and well educated have a much worse record than the older less educated folks. All in all though, it's pretty much the same story here in the US. I guess it's a worldwide problem. Glad you suggested I Google that. There is nothing wrong with educating one's self with something new. Thanks!

As far a the Jews not pronouncing God's name, I think, far from showing a disdain for God, and as misguided as it many be, it actually shows a rather high level of respect for God. They got the idea after they were taken captive by Babylon and Assyria because of their continual sin. When Cyrus let them return to Jerusalem they vowed to never let that happen again. They thought, again misguidedly, that there was a small chance that they would inadvertantly say God's name in such a was as to violate the commandment that prohibited them from taking His name in vain. Their solution to prevent that was to simply avoid saying His name at all. In a weird sort of way I guess it makes sense. At least it did to them. The point being, they wouldn't say His name because they were deathly afraid of disrespecting Him. That was their heart and I'm quite certain God will wink at their mistake.

 

[Rich R]

I didn't even have to make any accusation.

I was responding directly to two posts commenting about not believing Jesus is God.

did you reply that I was mistaken in that?

I guess I missed that.

let's clear it up.

DO YOU believe Jesus is God?

To clear it up, I believe, Jesus was the only begotten son of God. The scriptures say just that some 3 dozen times. To be more precise, I think:

In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.​

In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.​

In Leviticus he is the High Priest.​

In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.​

In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.​

In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.​

In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.​

In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.​

In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.​

In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.​

In Chronicles he is the King's son.​

In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.​

In Esther he is the savior of God's people.​

In Job he is the daysman.​

In Psalms he is the song.​

In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.​

In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.​

In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.​

In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.​

In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.​

In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.​

In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.​

In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.​

In Hosea he is the latter rain.​

In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.​

In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.​

In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.​

In Jonah he is our salvation.​

In Micah he is the Lord of kings.​

In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.​

In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.​

In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.​

In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.​

In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.​

In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.​

In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.​

In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.​

In Luke he is Jehovah's man.​

In John he is Jehovah's Son.​

In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.​

In Romans he is the believers' justification.​

In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.​

In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.​

In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.​

In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.​

In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.​

In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.​

In Timothy he is the faithful men.​

In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.​

In Philemon he is the love of a believer.​

In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.​

In James he is the royal law.​

In Peter he is the pastor.​

In John he is as we are.​

In Jude he is the beloved.​

In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.​

​

I sure wouldn't call Jesus a "mere" man. But then again, in light of Psalms, no man is a "mere" man.

Ps 8:4-5,

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?​

​

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew elohim, i.e. gods), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.​

​

Also, I would be loathe to declare that something God made in His image should be considered a "mere" thing.

 

[Rich R]

why would you throw out a random verse of your choosing, John 17:16, and declare that it doesn't support my position?

I made no reference to John 8:23 either.

your whole argument fell flat there.

I'm sorry. I thought you said Jesus was not of this world and that you were referring to John 8:23. I guess I was mistaken though. Maybe I was thinking of something somebody else said. Things can get moving pretty fast around here!

 

[M3n0r4h]

I checked out the statistics from the Pew Research Center. Although not as bad as you said, it is nonetheless pretty dismal. Overall only about 30% of Jews in Israel go to Synagogue on a regular basis. As might be expected, the younger and well educated have a much worse record than the older less educated folks. All in all though, it's pretty much the same story here in the US. I guess it's a worldwide problem. Glad you suggested I Google that. There is nothing wrong with educating one's self with something new. Thanks!

hmm. that's an interesting way to completely twist all of the info there.

if 30% of Israel go to synagogue, that means 0% believe in Jesus, which means 100% do not believe in Jesus.

not sure how on earth you claim that's similar to the U.S.

even if the statistic was 30% go to church, the overwhelming majority of those believe in Jesus.

As far a the Jews not pronouncing God's name, I think, far from showing a disdain for God, and as misguided as it many be, it actually shows a rather high level of respect for God.

who said anything about that?

they don't even spell out the word God, they write G-d if they write it at all. that has nothing to do with them making it a LAW that nobody can SPEAK the name of Jesus Christ.

They got the idea after they were taken captive by Babylon and Assyria because of their continual sin. When Cyrus let them return to Jerusalem they vowed to never let that happen again. They thought, again misguidedly, that there was a small chance that they would inadvertantly say God's name in such a was as to violate the commandment that prohibited them from taking His name in vain. Their solution to prevent that was to simply avoid saying His name at all. In a weird sort of way I guess it makes sense. At least it did to them. The point being, they wouldn't say His name because they were deathly afraid of disrespecting Him. That was their heart and I'm quite certain God will wink at their mistake.

all completely irrelevant to the discussion.

if you (anyone) don't "believe in/on" Jesus Christ, you (anyone) are not a Christian.

nobody ever says "Do you believe in Tom Cruise, do you believe in Abe Lincoln, do you believe in George Washington?" and for good reason. because there's no inherent divinity implied there.

we say "Do you believe in Jesus Christ?" because there is inherent divinity implied.

those who don't believe that Jesus is God do not believe in Jesus.

the jews do not believe in Jesus - per their very religion.

you and @RR144 do not believe in Jesus.

therefore, back around to my original statement, you are not Christians.

it's just a Biblical fact.

 

[Rich R]

I was responding directly to two posts commenting about not believing Jesus is God.

And which posts would those be? As I said, I have no problems with following the rules, one of which says we can't say Jesus isn't God. So I don't recall saying Jesus was not God. Now if my saying Jesus is the son of God (which the scriptures clearly say, I'm just quoting them) means to you that I don't believe he is God, you are putting words in my mouth. I have no problem with that, but we should understand what's what.

 

[Rich R]

hmm. that's an interesting way to completely twist all of the info there.

if 30% of Israel go to synagogue, that means 0% believe in Jesus, which means 100% do not believe in Jesus.

not sure how on earth you claim that's similar to the U.S.

even if the statistic was 30% go to church, the overwhelming majority of those believe in Jesus.

who said anything about that?

they don't even spell out the word God, they write G-d if they write it at all. that has nothing to do with them making it a LAW that nobody can SPEAK the name of Jesus Christ.

all completely irrelevant to the discussion.

if you (anyone) don't "believe in/on" Jesus Christ, you (anyone) are not a Christian.

nobody ever says "Do you believe in Tom Cruise, do you believe in Abe Lincoln, do you believe in George Washington?" and for good reason. because there's no inherent divinity implied there.

we say "Do you believe in Jesus Christ?" because there is inherent divinity implied.

those who don't believe that Jesus is God do not believe in Jesus.

the jews do not believe in Jesus - per their very religion.

you and @RR144 do not believe in Jesus.

therefore, back around to my original statement, you are not Christians.

it's just a Biblical fact.

Well then, instead of just telling me to Google something, why not point me directly to the source document you are using? It'd save me some time. Thanks in advance.

As far as you not thinking I'm a Christian, I'm fine with whatever you think I am, and I forgive you for any slander you may have cast my way. I know who butters my bread.

1Cor 4:3-4,

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.​

​

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.​

 

[M3n0r4h]

we should understand what's what.

indeed

 

[M3n0r4h]

I know who butters my bread.

we agree!

 

[Rich R]

we say "Do you believe in Jesus Christ?" because there is inherent divinity implied.

Interestingly enough, I think Peter implies all Christians also have a divine nature. Actually he straight out says we do.

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

​

That ought to put a spring in our step!

 

[Rich R]

if you (anyone) don't "believe in/on" Jesus Christ, you (anyone) are not a Christian.

I was checking the rules to make sure I wasn't running afoul of them. I didn't see anything that would indicate I did, but I did see this:

"Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians."​

​

I wouldn't think of reporting a brother just because they don't agree with me about something, but I just thought you might want to review that rule for yourself.

 

[M3n0r4h]

I was checking the rules to make sure I wasn't running afoul of them. I didn't see anything that would indicate I did, but I did see this:

"Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians."​

​

I wouldn't think of reporting a brother just because they don't agree with me about something, but I just thought you might want to review that rule for yourself.

thanks, I was actually aware of it.

what I stated was a fact as I laid it out very clearly.

1. to "believe in" Christ is to believe He is God.

2. to not believe that Christ is God is to not "believe in" Him.

3. to be a Christian, it is clear that one must "believe in" Jesus.

Christian = Follower of Christ

one cannot follow Christ if one does not "believe in" Christ.

jews, by definition, per judaism, do not "believe in" Christ.

those who do not believe Jesus is God = those who do not "believe in" Jesus.

both you and @RR144 both alluded very clearly to not believing Jesus is God.

did you not?

 

[Rich R]

thanks, I was actually aware of it.

what I stated was a fact as I laid it out very clearly.

1. to "believe in" Christ is to believe He is God.

2. to not believe that Christ is God is to not "believe in" Him.

3. to be a Christian, it is clear that one must "believe in" Jesus.

Christian = Follower of Christ

one cannot follow Christ if one does not "believe in" Christ.

jews, by definition, per judaism, do not "believe in" Christ.

• 

those who do not believe Jesus is God = those who do not "believe in" Jesus.

both you and @RR144 both alluded very clearly to not believing Jesus is God.

did you not?

Well, none of that has anything to do with the rule I quoted, irrespective of what you think I believe about Jesus. The rule clearly states nobody can call someone who identifies as Christian a non-Christian. You keep on doing that, indicating your lack of respect for the owners of this forum. Are they not your brothers and sisters? Yes they are, so try treating them as such.

Besides your assertion that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved goes against scripture.

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

​

Nothing there about believing Jesus is God one way or the other, but for some reason it appears you want to keep adding something to that simple declaration. I think there is something at the end or Revelation about adding things to the scriptures. You might want to make a careful review of that section.

If you are unable to accept simple reproof, I'll just graciously bow out of the conversation. It's of little profit to either of us. In any case, know I do love you as a brother in Christ. You are a light in a very dark world and I thank you for your standing on the truth to the best of your ability. God knows the world needs all the light it can get.

 

[M3n0r4h]

Well, none of that has anything to do with the rule I quoted, irrespective of what you think I believe about Jesus. The rule clearly states nobody can call someone who identifies as Christian a non-Christian. You keep on doing that, indicating your lack of respect for the owners of this forum. Are they not your brothers and sisters? Yes they are, so try treating them as such.

Besides your assertion that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved goes against scripture.

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

​

Nothing there about believing Jesus is God one way or the other, but for some reason it appears you want to keep adding something to that simple declaration. I think there is something at the end or Revelation about adding things to the scriptures. You might want to make a careful review of that section.

If you are unable to accept simple reproof, I'll just graciously bow out of the conversation. It's of little profit to either of us. In any case, know I do love you as a brother in Christ. You are a light in a very dark world and I thank you for your standing on the truth to the best of your ability. God knows the world needs all the light it can get.

I'm not disrespecting anybody.

reproof doesn't faze me.

I was simply explaining something that you and @RR144 didn't realize.