Who will occupy the land of Israel in Paradise earth?

[Earburner]

Those are all good points. I agree with you about the parallels between Abraham and Christians, but a parallel of something by definition means there are two different things.

When God spoke to Abraham about inheriting the land, I think, when taken as read, that He was referring to a very physical land, one that Abraham could see with his two eyes. Abraham would have had no idea of Christians coming in the future. In fact, Paul calls that idea a mystery (Greek musterion, better translated as a secret) that nobody knew until God revealed it to Paul.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

1Cor 2:7,

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

​

Eph 1:9-11,

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:​

​

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:​

​

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:​

Christians are never said to inherit the land God promised Abraham. Our inheritance is quite a differennt thing than the promise God made to Abraham. I don't think we should mix up the promise God made to Abraham with that of the Christians. Two very different things.

I tend to think that you did not fully grasp what I was saying.

Jesus, who also once was Spirit with the Father, was made to be flesh. After He resurrected into New Life, being both Spirit and flesh, having immortality, what exactly was it that Jesus inherited, that would make Him to be "the firstborn from the dead", as well as "the firstborn of many brethren", being they who were under the OC, and we who are under the NC?

 

[PinSeeker]

...a parallel of something by definition means there are two different things.

Yes and no... in this case ~ and many other cases throughout Scripture, especially in Moses and the Prophets, it means there is a lesser (immediate) and a greater (ultimate). Two other very appropriate examples are:

• ...what God promised Moses in the Mosaic Covenant, the Law, the Ten Commandments. Later, Jesus clarified the greater Law, which was infinitely greater, which He fleshed out in all His "You have heard, but I tell you" statements in His discourse on the Mount of Olives and finally summed up in His statement to the Pharisaical lawyer (who had asked Him, "which is the great commandment in the Law?"):

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:37-40).​

​

And this is what Paul is talking about later when he says the following:​

​

"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4).​

​

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2).​

• ...what God promised David in the Davidic Covenant, a permanent King over Israel ~ David was made king (by God, of course) in the lesser, immediate sense, but Jesus, Who said to Pontius Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Jesus is the Son of David (Matthew 1:1,20; 9:27; 15:22; 20:30, 31; 21:9,15; 22:42; Mark 10:47,48; Luke 18:38), but also David's Lord, which David himself acknowledges in :

"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool'... The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, 'You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek'" (Psalm 110:1-4).​

David was made king over lesser Israel, which included only ethnic Jews (and some foreigners) at that time, but Jesus has become King over greater Isreal, which consists of all those in Christ, both Jew and Gentile.​

When God spoke to Abraham about inheriting the land, I think, when taken as read, that He was referring to a very physical land, one that Abraham could see with his two eyes.

Absolutely. But He was also making a greater promise of a greater land to be inherited by all Abraham's offspring, which, as God told Abraham, were ultimately to number as the stars of heaven, the grains of sand on the seashore (Genesis 15:5 and Genesis 22:17, respectively).

Abraham would have had no idea of Christians coming in the future.

Well, he knew that his offspring would be an innumerable multitude (see immediately above), and that his offspring would be named through Isaac, because God told him... (in Genesis Genesis 21:12, and both Paul and the writer of Hebrews referred directly to this in Romans 9:7 and Hebrews 11:18, respectively) ...and Abraham, who was 100 years old, was well aware, I'm sure, that he fathered no more immediate offspring after Isaac, the child of the promise, through whom we all are named, and are thus Abraham's greater offspring.

In fact, Paul calls that idea a mystery (Greek musterion, better translated as a secret) that nobody knew until God revealed it to Paul.

It's not a mystery in the sense that the concept cannot possibly be understood, Rich. It is a mystery in the sense that, well, what is man, that God should be mindful of him? (Psalm 4:8). In other words, how can this possibly be, that God would do this for us? How can He love us this much? Which is to say that even now, it is a mystery to us in that sense.

Christians are never said to inherit the land God promised Abraham. Our inheritance is quite a differennt thing than the promise God made to Abraham.

See, this is true. I agree with this. But the ideas of "lesser" and "greater" is woven throughout Scripture.

I don't think we should mix up the promise God made to Abraham with that of the Christians.

Agreed, but at least a couple of us are not doing that, despite what you think. You're seeing the lesser/immediate and not the greater/ultimate. Neither is avoidable.

Two very different things.

Again, immediately, to Abraham specifically, yes. But to all his offspring, which are like that stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore ~ an innumerable multitude ~ no, not so much. All the promises of God find their Yes in Christ Jesus, and that is why it is through Him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. (2 Corinthians 1:20).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

I tend to think that you did not fully grasp what I was saying.

Jesus, who also once was Spirit with the Father, was made to be flesh. After He resurrected into New Life, being both Spirit and flesh, having immortality, what exactly was it that Jesus inherited, that would make Him to be "the firstborn from the dead", as well as "the firstborn of many brethren", being they who were under the OC, and we who are under the NC?

Well, I think you may be right about my not fully grasping what you are saying. I have been know to be a bit slow on the uptake at times.

As far as what Jesus inherited:

Gen 12:7,

And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.​

Gal 3:16,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.​

​

Jeremiah prohisies that Jesus will reign over the land that God promised him.

Jer 23:5,

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute judgment and justice in the land.​

​

Not sure if that's what you were looking for, but there it is. Not much need to interpret anything. It's all pretty straight forward to me. Land is land. I don't see anything spiritual about it (not saying you do, but I understand many do). I think God told Abraham to look at regular old land, the kind we can all see with the same kind of eyes with which Abraham saw it. Not sure why we need to go and spiritualize it somehow. But that's just me. Maybe I'm just simple minded (as I alluded above). But it does make sense to me.

 

[Rich R]

Yes and no... in this case ~ and many other cases throughout Scripture, especially in Moses and the Prophets, it means there is a lesser (immediate) and a greater (ultimate). Two other very appropriate examples are:

• ...what God promised Moses in the Mosaic Covenant, the Law, the Ten Commandments. Later, Jesus clarified the greater Law, which was infinitely greater, which He fleshed out in all His "You have heard, but I tell you" statements in His discourse on the Mount of Olives and finally summed up in His statement to the Pharisaical lawyer (who had asked Him, "which is the great commandment in the Law?"):

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:37-40).​

​

And this is what Paul is talking about later when he says the following:​

​

"Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4).​

​

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2).​

• ...what God promised David in the Davidic Covenant, a permanent King over Israel ~ David was made king (by God, of course) in the lesser, immediate sense, but Jesus, Who said to Pontius Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36). Jesus is the Son of David (Matthew 1:1,20; 9:27; 15:22; 20:30, 31; 21:9,15; 22:42; Mark 10:47,48; Luke 18:38), but also David's Lord, which David himself acknowledges in :

"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool'... The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, 'You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek'" (Psalm 110:1-4).​

David was made king over lesser Israel, which included only ethnic Jews (and some foreigners) at that time, but Jesus has become King over greater Isreal, which consists of all those in Christ, both Jew and Gentile.​

Absolutely. But He was also making a greater promise of a greater land to be inherited by all Abraham's offspring, which, as God told Abraham, were ultimately to number as the stars of heaven, the grains of sand on the seashore (Genesis 15:5 and Genesis 22:17, respectively).


Well, he knew that his offspring would be an innumerable multitude (see immediately above), and that his offspring would be named through Isaac, because God told him... (in Genesis Genesis 21:12, and both Paul and the writer of Hebrews referred directly to this in Romans 9:7 and Hebrews 11:18, respectively) ...and Abraham, who was 100 years old, was well aware, I'm sure, that he fathered no more immediate offspring after Isaac, the child of the promise, through whom we all are named, and are thus Abraham's greater offspring.


It's not a mystery in the sense that the concept cannot possibly be understood, Rich. It is a mystery in the sense that, well, what is man, that God should be mindful of him? (Psalm 4:8). In other words, how can this possibly be, that God would do this for us? How can He love us this much? Which is to say that even now, it is a mystery to us in that sense.


See, this is true. I agree with this. But the ideas of "lesser" and "greater" is woven throughout Scripture.


Agreed, but at least a couple of us are not doing that, despite what you think. You're seeing the lesser/immediate and not the greater/ultimate. Neither is avoidable.


Again, immediately, to Abraham specifically, yes. But to all his offspring, which are like that stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore ~ an innumerable multitude ~ no, not so much. All the promises of God find their Yes in Christ Jesus, and that is why it is through Him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. (2 Corinthians 1:20).

Grace and peace to you.

All very good points. You seem rather perceptive regarding God's wonderful matchless Word! I would like to add some stuff about the mystery, stuff which you probably already understand.

Strong's definiton:

G3466 μυστήριον musterion (mï-stee'-riy-on) n.
a secret or “mystery.”
{through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites}
[from a derivative of muo “to shut the mouth”]

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament definition

1. that which is known to the μύστης (initiated), a mystery or secret doctrine, mostly in pl., τὰ μ. (Æsch., Hdt., al.).
2. In later writers (Menand., Incert., 168), that which may not be revealed (not, however, as in the modern sense, intrinsically difficult to understand), a secret or mystery of any kind (To, Jth, 2Mac, ll, c.).

As you can see, musterion is much better thought of as a secret, not necessarily a mystery. The difference? A mystery may never be known whereas a secret, once revealed, can be understood. I think it is rather clear that Paul did in fact make it known.

Eph 1:9,

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:​

​

Eph 3:3(a),

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;​

​

Furthermore, Ephesians declares that we may in fact understand this secret.

Eph 3:4,

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

​

Paul asked for prayers that he could make this mystery known. After all God would like all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

Eph 6:19,

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,​

​

Nobody knew about the secret until God revealed it to Paul.

Eph 3:5,

Which (the secret, see v.3) in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

​

God thinks it rather important that all Christians fully grasp this secret.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

As you can see, it is through knowledge of the secret that we are established. Check out 1 Corinthians 2. There you will see that without a knowledge of the secret, we are stuck with milk. The meat comes via a knowledge of the secret. I didn't write the book. I just read what it says and believe it (at least to the best of my ability).

But here's what I see as the upshot of the mystery:

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

​

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

WOW! God was in Christ and now Christ is in all born again Christians. What a reality! I think this explains why the devil would not have killed Jesus had he known the secret (1 Cor 2:7-8). When Jesus was here there was one Jesus in one place at one time. As much as that frustrated the devil, now he has to deal with billions of Christs all over the place! It totally explains why God had to keep it a secret until after Jesus died. What a coup on God's part!

 

[M3n0r4h]

The Bible teaches that the land of Israel was promised to Jacob and his descendants forever and that the land of Israel will be the center of Gods kingdom on earth.​

Afflicted with anti-Semitism the traditional churches developed “Replacement Theology.” Some early church theologians wrongly concluded that Israel as a people was eternally rejected by God for having rejected Jesus. The claim is that the church is now spiritual Israel and, as such, has replaced natural Israel.
The King James Version of the Bible is filled with examples where promises to natural Israel are applied to the Christian Church through arbitrary chapter headings. For example, above Isaiah 59 is added a heading, “The sins of the Jews.” Yet in the very next chapter, Isaiah 60, the chapter heading added is “Glory of the Church.”

God promised the Land of Israel to Abraham and his descendants forever. To renege on this agreement would make God a liar. Yet how do we explain that Abraham was never given the land?

"14. And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15. For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. - Gen 13:14-17 (KJV)​

​

1. And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him … 7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. - Gen 17:1-8 (KJV)​

These verses teach that God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants forever. That’s why we call it the Land of Promise. If orthodox Christian thinking were correct, we should rename it the Land of Broken Promise.

Notice how verse 7 of Gen. 17 speaks of “the land wherein thou art a stranger.”

Notice also… Acts 7:5 "And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child." (KJV)

Abraham died as a stranger in the land, without receiving an inheritance in it. This proves Abraham can’t be in heaven. He’ll be resurrected on earth in God’s kingdom to receive this inheritance with his descendants.

the Bible says that the Land was promised to Abraham's seed.

who do you believe Abraham's seed is?

 

[Jay Ross]

The Bible teaches that the land of Israel was promised to Jacob and his descendants forever and that the land of Israel will be the center of Gods kingdom on earth.

This claim is flawed. This is what Genesis 13:15 actually states on a word for word translation basis: -

15 "for all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described land will end."​

The Promised Land, was always a temporal possession. It was for a finite period of time which finally ended when the roman Empire scattered the remaining Israelite to the four corners of the earth and levelled the Temple.

 

[Earburner]

All very good points. You seem rather perceptive regarding God's wonderful matchless Word! I would like to add some stuff about the mystery, stuff which you probably already understand.

Strong's definiton:

G3466 μυστήριον musterion (mï-stee'-riy-on) n.
a secret or “mystery.”
{through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites}
[from a derivative of muo “to shut the mouth”]

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament definition

1. that which is known to the μύστης (initiated), a mystery or secret doctrine, mostly in pl., τὰ μ. (Æsch., Hdt., al.).
2. In later writers (Menand., Incert., 168), that which may not be revealed (not, however, as in the modern sense, intrinsically difficult to understand), a secret or mystery of any kind (To, Jth, 2Mac, ll, c.).

As you can see, musterion is much better thought of as a secret, not necessarily a mystery. The difference? A mystery may never be known whereas a secret, once revealed, can be understood. I think it is rather clear that Paul did in fact make it known.

Eph 1:9,

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:​

​

Eph 3:3(a),

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;​

​

Furthermore, Ephesians declares that we may in fact understand this secret.

Eph 3:4,

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

​

Paul asked for prayers that he could make this mystery known. After all God would like all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

Eph 6:19,

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,​

​

Nobody knew about the secret until God revealed it to Paul.

Eph 3:5,

Which (the secret, see v.3) in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

​

God thinks it rather important that all Christians fully grasp this secret.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

As you can see, it is through knowledge of the secret that we are established. Check out 1 Corinthians 2. There you will see that without a knowledge of the secret, we are stuck with milk. The meat comes via a knowledge of the secret. I didn't write the book. I just read what it says and believe it (at least to the best of my ability).

But here's what I see as the upshot of the mystery:

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

​

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

WOW! God was in Christ and now Christ is in all born again Christians. What a reality! I think this explains why the devil would not have killed Jesus had he known the secret (1 Cor 2:7-8). When Jesus was here there was one Jesus in one place at one time. As much as that frustrated the devil, now he has to deal with billions of Christs all over the place! It totally explains why God had to keep it a secret until after Jesus died. What a coup on God's part!

Yes! Your explanation and scripture references is more thorough in revealing that which I was attempting to say in my post on page 4, #79.
You wrote:
"WOW! God was in Christ and now Christ is in all born again Christians. What a reality! I think this explains why the devil would not have killed Jesus had he known the secret (1 Cor 2:7-8). When Jesus was here there was one Jesus in one place at one time."

However, I am still attempting to take it one step higher, and that is...God the Father in Jesus is the NEW Heaven, and we each ourselves, who are born again, shall be the NEW Earth, whereIN dwelleth [God's] Righteousness.

At the moment, while we are still yet mortal (as revealed in the feast of "Tabernacles", aka Pentecost), for now by His Spirit, we are only made to be "partakers of the divine nature".
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this [His] treasure IN earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We ourselves are the "land" in which God dwelleth, and not that of a remodeled old planet Earth, or that of another new planet earth.
We ourselves are the many mansions, the Great city called Heavenly Jerusalem. The many mansions of God's dwelling place in Jesus, who is Himself the Father's House.
That prophetic reality will be fully realized and received upon the Day of Jesus' Glorious return from Heaven.

 

[Rich R]

the Bible says that the Land was promised to Abraham's seed.

who do you believe Abraham's seed is?

That's what the text says when taken at face value. Not sure why so many seem to think God was somehow trying to be cryptic or something like that with His words. Just read what's written and it all makes perfect sense.

 

[Rich R]

This claim is flawed. This is what Genesis 13:15 actually states on a word for word translation basis: -

15 "for all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described land will end."​

The Promised Land, was always a temporal possession. It was for a finite period of time which finally ended when the roman Empire scattered the remaining Israelite to the four corners of the earth and levelled the Temple.

I'm curious. How do you make the connection between "the end point" (Hebrew olem) of v15 and the Roman Empire? Why could it not refer to the restored earth in Revelation 20-22? I think those chapters talk about a new earth (really "land" in their cosmology) with a city, mountains, and rivers. Why couldn't that be the land God promised Abraham and his seed?

 

[Rich R]

Yes! Your explanation and scripture references is more thorough in revealing that which I was attempting to say in my post on page 4, #79.
You wrote:
"WOW! God was in Christ and now Christ is in all born again Christians. What a reality! I think this explains why the devil would not have killed Jesus had he known the secret (1 Cor 2:7-8). When Jesus was here there was one Jesus in one place at one time."

However, I am still attempting to take it one step higher, and that is...God the Father in Jesus is the NEW Heaven, and we each ourselves, who are born again, shall be the NEW Earth, whereIN dwelleth [God's] Righteousness.

At the moment, while we are still yet mortal (as revealed in the feast of "Tabernacles", aka Pentecost), for now by His Spirit, we are only made to be "partakers of the divine nature".
2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this [His] treasure IN earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We ourselves are the "land" in which God dwelleth, and not that of a remodeled old planet Earth, or that of another new planet earth.
We ourselves are the many mansions, the Great city called Heavenly Jerusalem. The many mansions of God's dwelling place in Jesus, who is Himself the Father's House.
That prophetic reality will be fully realized and received upon the Day of Jesus' Glorious return from Heaven.

I'm not 100% sure exactly where it's written (Isaiah, Jeramiah, or maybe Ezekiel), but the scriptures talk about people having regular old houses, vineyards, barns, and jobs on the new earth. As I recall it mentions carpenters, farmers, artisans and a few more professions. Seems like it will be pretty much like this present earth only purged of evil men and women. More or less right back were the book started, i.e., Eden.

Yes, God does live in us through Jesus Christ, but I don't see any reason to go beyond what that says. He will absolutely dwell in and with us and we will dwell in the new land. But, as you said, whatever it will be will occur when Jesus comes back. Then we'll know for sure what's what.

 

[M3n0r4h]

@RR144

That's what the text says when taken at face value. Not sure why so many seem to think God was somehow trying to be cryptic or something like that with His words. Just read what's written and it all makes perfect sense.

right.

well, the modern conclusion that is taught to the masses is incorrect per the scriptures.

we are all taught that the jews residing in the state of Israel are there because they are Abraham's seed and the land was promised to them, etc., etc.

that's not what we find in scripture at all.

Jesus says that they are not at all Abraham's seed because they reject Him entirely.
John 8:39-40

Paul supports this contention by saying that it is Christ who is Abraham's seed and all those who diligently follow Him (Christians) are the Biblical heirs of Abraham and the rightful owners of that land.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. ... thy seed, which is Christ."
Gal. 3:16

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Gal. 3:29

the jews do not accept Christ, and actually hate Him passionately as they are today working to make it a law in Israel that nobody can even speak His Name.

most certainly they are not the rightful heirs to which that land was promised.

the Bible proves it belongs to the True Christians who live with, and for, Jesus Christ.

 

[Rich R]

@RR144

right.

well, the modern conclusion that is taught to the masses is incorrect per the scriptures.

we are all taught that the jews residing in the state of Israel are there because they are Abraham's seed and the land was promised to them, etc., etc.

that's not what we find in scripture at all.

Jesus says that they are not at all Abraham's seed because they reject Him entirely.
John 8:39-40

Paul supports this contention by saying that it is Christ who is Abraham's seed and all those who diligently follow Him (Christians) are the Biblical heirs of Abraham and the rightful owners of that land.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. ... thy seed, which is Christ."
Gal. 3:16

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Gal. 3:29

the jews do not accept Christ, and actually hate Him passionately as they are today working to make it a law in Israel that nobody can even speak His Name.

most certainly they are not the rightful heirs to which that land was promised.

the Bible proves it belongs to the True Christians who live with, and for, Jesus Christ.

I wonder how this fits in:

Ezek 11:17-19,

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.​

​

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.​

​

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:​

​

Ezek 37:21-27,

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:​

​

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:​

​

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.​

​

24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.​

​

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever.​

​

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.​

​

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

I don't think it's talking about the second temple period. I think that could be what's fulfilled at the end of Revelation.

One thing is for sure though, God wasn't talking about the UN in 1948 fulfilling His promise to Abraham!

 

[M3n0r4h]

I wonder how this fits in:

Ezek 11:17-19,

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.​

​

18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.​

​

19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:​

​

Ezek 37:21-27,

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:​

​

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:​

​

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.​

​

24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.​

​

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever.​

​

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.​

​

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

I don't think it's talking about the second temple period. I think that could be what's fulfilled at the end of Revelation.

One thing is for sure though, God wasn't talking about the UN in 1948 fulfilling His promise to Abraham!

agreed.

here's another semi-obscure passage from that book that kinda makes one wonder:

"Son of man, they that inhabit those wastes of the land of Israel speak saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we are many; the land is given us for inheritance.
Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?
Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbor's wife: and shall ye possess the land?"

Ezek. 33:24-26

 

[Jay Ross]

I'm curious. How do you make the connection between "the end point" (Hebrew olem) of v15 and the Roman Empire? Why could it not refer to the restored earth in Revelation 20-22? I think those chapters talk about a new earth (really "land" in their cosmology) with a city, mountains, and rivers. Why couldn't that be the land God promised Abraham and his seed?

Look at the scriptures and what they tell us and the historical record for Israel. 2 Chronicles 7:12ff tells us that God will remove the Israelites from the "Promised Land" and cause them to be scattered throughout the whole earth and that the Temple would be destroyed and not be rebuilt. All of this happened in 70 A.D. when the last tribes of Israel were also taken into captivity and sold as slaves to the nations. Joel the prophet wrote about this.

Genesis 12:1-3: - Promises to Abram

(Acts 7:2-5)​

12:1 Now the Lord had said[1] to Abram:[2]

"Get out of your country,​

From your family​

And from your father's house,​

To an earth that I will show you.​

2 I will make you a great nation;​

I will bless you​

And make your name great;​

And you shall be a blessing. ​

3 I will bless those who bless you,​

And I will curse him who curses you;​

And through you all the families of the ground/land [3] shall be blessed."​

In Genesis 15:1-8 God again tells Abraham that he will in the future possess the whole earth but Abraham asked how will I know this, and so we have the resulting Giving of the Solemn "Promised Land" covenant where God defines the land area that they will have possession of, as the sign that will confirm that in the distant future they will have possession of the whole earth.

Genesis 15:1-8 - God's Covenant with Abram​

(Heb 11:8-10)​

​

15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."​

​

2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"​

​

4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." 5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."​

​

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.​

​

7 Then He said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this earth to possess it."​

​

8 And he said, "Lord God, how shall I know that I will possess it?"​

What follows this as the sun was going down are three short prophecies.

The first concerning Israel living in Egypt and becoming slaves there and that God will bring them out of Egypt after being slaves for around 400 years that God, Himself will bring them out with great possessions.

The second concerning Abraham's life, that he would live to an old age and die in peace.

The Third concerning Abraham's descendants returning to the Land of Canaan in their own strength during the fourth age of their existence.

Finally, as the sun set, God enters into the solemn confirmation/sign covenant with Abraham that when they had possession of the land so defined by God in this covenant that they will know, that in the distant future they will receive possession of the whole earth. This is the "Promised Land" that God said that he would remove them from in 2 Chronicles 7:12ff because of their continual idolatrous worship of idols.

How do i know this? From reading all of the scriptures and considering the historical history of Israel, which includes their return to the Land of Canaan in their own strength, during the fourth age of their existence in 1948, exactly, from my understanding, 4,000 years from when Isaac was born. Jesus then tells us when Israel will be redeemed and will be gathered by God once more in the one verse prophecy found in Matthew 24:32, when they will take part in the Great Harvest of souls during the Seventh Age before the Final time of Judgement.

Shalom

---

[1] The Lord called Abram while he was in Ur (see Gen 15:7; Acts 7:2); but the sequence here makes it look like it was after the family left to migrate to Canaan (11:31-32). Genesis records the call of Abram at this place in the narrative because it is the formal beginning of the account of Abram. The record of Terah was brought to its end before the narrative of Abraham begins.
[2] The call of Abram begins with an imperative לֶךְ־ לְךָ֛ (lekh-l®kha, "go out") followed by three cohortatives (v. 2 a) indicating purpose or consequence ("that I may" or "then I will"). If Abram leaves, then God will do these three things. The second imperative (v. 2 b, literally "and be a blessing") is subordinated to the preceding cohortatives and indicates God's ultimate purpose in calling and blessing Abram. On the syntactical structure of vv. 1-2 see R. B. Chisholm, "Evidence from Genesis," A Case for Premillennialism, 37. For a similar sequence of volitive forms see Gen 45:18.
It would be hard to overestimate the value of this call and this divine plan for the theology of the Bible. Here begins God's plan to bring redemption to the world. The promises to Abram will be turned into a covenant in Gen 15 and 22 (here it is a call with conditional promises) and will then lead through the Bible to the work of the Messiah.
[3] The Hebrew Root of הָאֲדָמָֽה, H:0127, has the meaning of soil, and is akin to a fertile field/face of the land/world.
Genesis 2:7: –– 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
One could argue that what is being said here is that all of the peoples of the world that occupy God’s fertile field/ground will be blessed. The flip side of this covenant is that all of the people who do not occupy God’s fertile field/ground will be cursed.

 

[Scott Downey]

Those are all good points. I agree with you about the parallels between Abraham and Christians, but a parallel of something by definition means there are two different things.

When God spoke to Abraham about inheriting the land, I think, when taken as read, that He was referring to a very physical land, one that Abraham could see with his two eyes. Abraham would have had no idea of Christians coming in the future. In fact, Paul calls that idea a mystery (Greek musterion, better translated as a secret) that nobody knew until God revealed it to Paul.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

1Cor 2:7,

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

​

Eph 1:9-11,

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:​

​

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:​

​

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:​

Christians are never said to inherit the land God promised Abraham. Our inheritance is quite a differennt thing than the promise God made to Abraham. I don't think we should mix up the promise God made to Abraham with that of the Christians. Two very different things.

Jesus did make a promise about inheriting the earth, in v5.

Matthew 5:4-6

New King James Version

​

4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the [a]earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.

I am certain of this as it is also foretold in Daniel 7 which is still in the future as these events happen after the destruction of the antichrist figure.


21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
28 “This is the end of the [k]account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.”

 

[Earburner]

I'm not 100% sure exactly where it's written (Isaiah, Jeramiah, or maybe Ezekiel), but the scriptures talk about people having regular old houses, vineyards, barns, and jobs on the new earth. As I recall it mentions carpenters, farmers, artisans and a few more professions. Seems like it will be pretty much like this present earth only purged of evil men and women. More or less right back were the book started, i.e., Eden.

Yes, God does live in us through Jesus Christ, but I don't see any reason to go beyond what that says. He will absolutely dwell in and with us and we will dwell in the new land. But, as you said, whatever it will be will occur when Jesus comes back. Then we'll know for sure what's what.

Rev. 21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

[2] And I John saw the holy city [of people], new Jerusalem, coming down [not necessarily on to this planet or another planet] from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
> [22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
[23] And the city [of people, aka the saints] had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.]

[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [dwelling place] of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [The kingdom of God is within you].
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away [no plants, animals, birds, fish, bugs, etc....no more death at all].

[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh [Death- John 3:3-8, Rom. 8:8-9, 1 John 5:12-13] shall inherit all things [that Jesus inherited]; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

> For 2023 years and counting, Jesus in His Eternal Spirit and His physical Immortality, having the ability to change at will, is seated at the right hand of God, and has not received any sustenance from this planet, nor that of a new planet.
Please recall the incident in the upper room, where the doors were shut, for fear of the Jews. And by all means, let's not forget the Transfiguration.

What did Jesus inherit, whereby we shall be changed into His LIKENESS?
It's really quite simple, eternal life and immortality, whereby all who are born again through faith in Jesus, are equal in their receiving of God's Gift.

 

[RR144]

This claim is flawed. This is what Genesis 13:15 actually states on a word for word translation basis: -

15 "for all the earth which you see, that entity, I will give to your descendants for a long period of time where the end point of that time period, will be beyond your descendants capacity to comprehend when the possession of the described land will end."​

The Promised Land, was always a temporal possession. It was for a finite period of time which finally ended when the roman Empire scattered the remaining Israelite to the four corners of the earth and levelled the Temple.

Well I don't know what interlinear you're using but I've looked at several in my library, and none of them read that way.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

At the end of the day, if you are not truly born again you are not in the Kingdom of God in fact !

Bible points out who can enter the Kingdom of God and who can not in fact !

God owns the whole world in fact and the town City etc claimed to be Israel is not where it's all at ?
The main point is if you are truly born again of the Holy Spirit then you are worthy of God in fact and the issue of so called race is a spastic issue that is of Satan in fact, because the Jews were never founded on a race in fact, that is not the issue at all but abiding in the Holy Spirit is where it's all at ?
Not to mention their is no Race in Christianity for all are as one ! for their is nether Jew or Greek ! so the issue of race never cut it ! but for one thing that does and that is the Holy Spirit that is above all in fact !

The Jew was only just one Semitic Tribe among many Semitic Tribes in fact. and the major point of this Tribe was the Spirit and not to mention only some were worthy of such and many were not in fact ! it's all their in reading of the OT !

Not to mention the worthy Jews came to Jesus in fact and they were the first Christians in fact.

 

[RR144]

the Bible says that the Land was promised to Abraham's seed.

who do you believe Abraham's seed is?

There are two seeds of Abraham, the heavenly seed and the earthly seed.

"blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies." - Gen. 22:17​

 

[Jay Ross]

Well I don't know what interlinear you're using but I've looked at several in my library, and none of them read that way.

Well, that does not make what I have posted wrong. I would suggest that what the authors of the interlinear that you have checked to see what they say, have got it wrong.

I have used Biblehub's interlinear and this is what it shows: -





H:0853 has the meaning of entity but they claim that this Hebrew word has no equivalent in the English Language. However I would dispute that.

Now Stephen in Acts 7 stated that Abraham received no part of the land that he had seen or walked over, even to rest the soles of his feet upon. This was not disputed by those standing around him who eventually stoned him to death.

Do your interlinear look similar to the above?

Shalom