Is that in reference to the idea of a predestined Elect? (which I have a problem with)
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Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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NayborBear
Active Member
Mark 4:
8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Psalm 71: (KJV)
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.
Matthew 19: (KJV)
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
John 3: (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
It would seem that You may be confused (?) on this point. As tis recorded more then several times this idea is more than an idea stigmatized by the traditions of men. And not as randomized as it seems in these last days? Eh?
St. SteVen said:
Is that in reference to the idea of a predestined Elect? (which I have a problem with)
If God predestined some (few) for life, then he also predestined the remainder (the vast majority) for destruction.
And there is certainly much better biblical support than you have provided. Better get another cup of coffee, friend. - LOL
Question: Was it God's plan from the beginning to create life and then bring it to an end by selecting a few to live,
while reserving for the vast majority (countless billions) to suffer the consequences of HIS choice?
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Is that in reference to the idea of a predestined Elect? (which I have a problem with)
The problem I have with the accepted definition of predestination is the flip side of the coin.
If God predestined some (few) for life, then he also predestined the remainder (the vast majority) for destruction.
And there is certainly much better biblical support than you have provided. Better get another cup of coffee, friend. - LOL
Question: Was it God's plan from the beginning to create life and then bring it to an end by selecting a few to live,
while reserving for the vast majority (countless billions) to suffer the consequences of HIS choice?
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I've quoted the Bible enough for you to believe or disbelieve spiritual death of the soul by sinning, vs natural death of the body by nature.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You either don't believe in the soul and spirit of man, or you believe they are the natural body itself. Just a distinction without a difference. The result is unbelief in the Bible.
His willingly dying at the hands of sinners doesn't save anyone, but only condemns all sinners as partakers of killing the Son. Just as all sinning kills the created good relationship of angels and men with God.
It's only by His resurrection that them who repent of their sinning, are forgiven, washed, purged wholly clean, and given a whole new and pure heart for God.
Since you either don't believe in the soul and spirit of man, or believe we are flesh and blood only, and it's not possible to change our bodily shape nor blood, then you have nothing to do with cleansing your soul and spirit through obedience to God.
You give yourself no hope of being found holy, clean, and blameless in soul, spirit, and body at His appearing.
That's just the result of sinful natural men on earth that believe not the spiritual things of the Bible. Or at least not the parts they willfully blind themselves too, because they refuse to repent of all their heart's lusting and bodily sinning.
You're imagining things! I can't see any Bible quotes from you that mention "spiritual death". There is not a single verse in the Bible that mentions "spiritual death". The words 'spirit' or 'spiritual', and 'death' do not appear in the same verse anywhere in the Bible, no matter which translation you choose.
The Bible only mentions death - pure and simple. Death is the cessation of life. It means that you have no concsious thoughts. The Bible says that we die because death is God's punishment for sin. The only hope we have for life again (conscious thoughts and memories) is if God will resurrect us to life again, which God has proved he can do by the resurrection of Jesus (and the restoration to life of Lazarus and several other people).
Psalms 146:4 (WEB):
(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.
Job 14:7-22 (ESV):
(7) “For there is hope for a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that its shoots will not cease.
(8) Though its root grow old in the earth, and its stump die in the soil,
(9) yet at the scent of water it will bud and put out branches like a young plant.
(10) But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he?
(11) As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up,
(12) so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
(13) Oh that you would hide me in Sheol {grave, hell}, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
(14) If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.
(15) You would call, and I would answer you; you would long for the work of your hands.
(16) For then you would number my steps; you would not keep watch over my sin;
(17) my transgression would be sealed up in a bag, and you would cover over my iniquity.
(18) “But the mountain falls and crumbles away, and the rock is removed from its place;
(19) the waters wear away the stones; the torrents wash away the soil of the earth; so you destroy the hope of man.
(20) You prevail forever against him, and he passes; you change his countenance, and send him away.
(21) His sons come to honor, and he does not know it; they are brought low, and he perceives it not.
(22) He feels only the pain of his own body, and he mourns only for himself.”
So it seems that you don't understand how Jesus' sacrifice of his life saves all mankind.
Hebrews 9:13-15 (WEB):
(13) For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh:
(14) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without defect to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(15) For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
What does redemption mean? To redeem something means to pay a price in order to buy something back. The redemption price that Jesus had to pay was a perfect, sinless life. Remember that God's perfect justice is an equal payment - a life for a life. No man or angel could pay the redemption price for Adam, which was a perfect, sinless human life - that's what Adam had before he sinned. Angels couldn't pay the price because they are not human. No man could pay the price because every man descended from Adam has inherited his punishment - a dying, decaying sinful human body. That is why God prepared a perfect human body for Jesus; a birth by a virgin so that the body did not inherit the sinful nature from the human father. Jesus lived a perfect, righteous and sinless life, and he then willingly sacrificed his life as the redemption price for Adam and all his descendents.
No human descended from Adam could be perfect, righteous and sinless, because they were all born with a sinful nature. However, if Adam had not sinned then all his descendents would have been born perfect and sinless. So Adam's right to life having been redeemed by Jesus means that likewise the life rights of all Adam's descendents have also been redeemed. God can now justify restoring all mankind to perfect life again.
1 Corinthians 15:17-22 (WEB):
(17) If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.
(18) Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
(19) If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.
(20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
(21) For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man.
(22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Jesus did not sin himself, although all mankind's sins were placed on him, so God was justified in restoring Jesus to life, and He rewarded him for his obedience and his sacrifice by giving him the immortal divine nature (until then Jesus, like all other living beings apart from God Himself, had been mortal).
1 John 4:10 (WEB):
(10) In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 3:5 (WEB):(5) You know that he was revealed to take away our sins, and in him is no sin.
1 Peter 2:24 (WEB):(24) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed.
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NayborBear
Active Member
This is not totally true! It's not as binary as you assert!
Simply put?
As God's Loving Kindness endures forever?
To some? Teachers!
To some? Students!
There is only one predestined for death! And that is satan!
As far as your vast majority is concerned?
Only one third were swept by the tale(tail) of the dragon!
Albeit however as you seem to assert, and/or have taken council with?
A pretty loud third!
Believing the soul is the body is a distinction without a difference of not believing in soul nor spirit.
Now you add in your own definitions. Being dead in sins and trespasses is the soul, not the body.
Oblivionism is the doctrinal refuge of the unrepentant children of disobedience.
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
I once tried to believe all people would be saved in the end, including Hitler, just to make sure I would go to heaven too. It didn't work. I knew I just needed to repent of my own sinful living.
It's only the honest heart that Jesus can make good unto everlasting life.
The same life we live when taking up our own cross for Him.
It's what all little children have, until they sin.
Christ doesn't make anything sinful. Blaming the body for sinning with the body, is the doctrinal refuge for foolish children of disobedience.
The virgin birth was for a sign, not for having some kind of body different from other men. Jesus' body was made of the seed of David and Abraham in the flesh of Mary's womb.
Retrograde salvation?
I am not a descendant of Adam, other than having the same flesh and blood as him and all men and women.
Neither is he my example. Jesus is my only example.
Keep telling yourself that lie and blaming your body for not repenting of sinning against God.
All babes are. Babes do neither good nor evil, and so are neither righteous nor sinful.
Keep telling yourself that lie. Even if Hitler goes to heaven, it doesn't mean you will.
This is Christian tradition that sounds sweet, but has no Bible meaning to it.
What was placed on Jesus' back and body was the Roman lash and nails of the cross.
He gave His body to be sinned against by unjust men. All men have been accounted by God as crucifying Jesus that day, and not just the ones doing it, because all men have sinned against Christ.
Only those that stop sinning against Him and receive the new heart of God by His Spirit, can now live and walk with Him.
Those who do that and turn back to sinning, are now with the world crucifying Him afresh in their lives.
So, you are JW. You preach a deified hero-christ of the old pagan sort.
That explains your soul-body oblivion stuff in order to do away with everlasting torment of the wicked dead.
I learned that is the real motivation for your created christ heresy. You don't really care about him. He's just a foil for your oblivionism.
As the Bible says. He willingly bore unjust man's sinning against Him physically.
I did not say the soul is the body. Is that all you can say rather than coming up with any Bible verses that support your idea of a "spiritual death"? As I previously wrote, you're not sticking exactly to what the Bible teaches, despite claiming that you do so.
Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB):
(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
The death of our body is not the end of our existence. We will continue to exist in a dormant state, like a sleep. This is what Jesus taught and is also taught throughout the Bible, e.g.:
Genesis 47:29-30 (WEB):
(29) The time came near that Israel must die, and he called his son Joseph, and said to him, “... Please don’t bury me in Egypt,
(30) but when I sleep with my fathers, you shall carry me out of Egypt, and bury me in their burying place.” ...
Daniel 12:2 (WEB):(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52 (WEB):(52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
John 11:11 (WEB):(11) He {Jesus} said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”
Acts 13:36 (WEB):(36) For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid with his fathers, and saw decay.
1 Corinthians 15:20 (WEB):(20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
God is able to resurrect dead souls to life again (and give them a new body), and he is also able to destroy souls so that they cannot be resurrected to life again (the second death, Revelation 20:14-15 - eternal death as opposed to eternal life).
It's not my definition. I wrote "Death is the cessation of life. It means that you have no concsious thoughts", and I gave supporting Scriptures - Job 14:7-22 and Psalms 146:4 (WEB):
(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.
If you cannot explain why you believe what you believe, quoting the Bible for supporting evidence, or you can't show from Bible quotes why what I wrote is wrong, then don't bother answering; and please don't respond with unsubstantiated accusations and insults.
God is very patient and He gives people ample chance to be saved. The Millenium has been set aside so that everyone (all non-Christians) can be restored to life again, and live a long life (longer than they lived before they died) in a perfect environment for learning to live righteously and sinlessly. Satan will be bound up for the whole 1,000 years (Revelation 20:2) so that he can't deceive people (verse 3), and Jesus will rule with a rod of iron (tend them like a shepherd, strictly not allowing unrighteous acts to be performed). Revelation 19:15 (MKJV):
(15) And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
Isaiah 11:4-9 (WEB):
(4) but with righteousness he will judge the poor, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips he will kill the wicked.
(5) Righteousness will be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his waist.
(6) The wolf will live with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat; The calf, the young lion, and the fattened calf together; and a little child will lead them.
(7) The cow and the bear will graze. Their young ones will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the ox.
(8) The nursing child will play near a cobra’s hole, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
(9) They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 35:4-10 (WEB):
(4) Tell those who have a fearful heart, “Be strong. Don’t be afraid. Behold, your God will come with vengeance, God’s retribution. He will come and save you.
(5) Then the eyes of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.
(6) Then the lame man will leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute will sing; for waters will break out in the wilderness, and streams in the desert.
(7) The burning sand will become a pool, and the thirsty ground springs of water. Grass with reeds and rushes will be in the habitation of jackals, where they lay.
(8) A highway will be there, a road, and it will be called The Holy Way. The unclean shall not pass over it, but it will be for those who walk in the Way. Wicked fools will not go there.
(9) No lion will be there, nor will any ravenous animal go up on it. They will not be found there; but the redeemed will walk there.
(10) Then Yahweh’s ransomed ones will return, and come with singing to Zion; and everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing will flee away.”
No it isn't. Jesus lived a whole human life perfect and sinless. No other human has lived a perfect and sinless life - Romans 3:23 (WEB):
(23) for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Jesus paid the redemption price, and through that Christians are justified, but don't try to make out that you are just as good as Jesus. John 13:16 (WEB):
(16) Most certainly I tell you, a servant is not greater than his lord, neither one who is sent greater than he who sent him.
You are a descendant of Adam. Adam was the first man, and all humans are his decendants. That's what the Bible teaches. See Luke 3:23-38 where Jesus' genealogy is traced back to Adam. There is no other oldest ancestor other than Adam.
Keep ignoring the Bible if you wish. I choose to believe the Bible is the true word of God. Psalms 51:7 (TLV):
(7) Behold, I was born in iniquity and in sin when my mother conceived me.
I had written, "all mankind's sins were placed on him". Here's a verse to confirm that - Isaiah 53:6 (WEB):
(6) All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
It means that God treated Jesus as though he had performed all mankind's sins, although in fact he was sinless, and therefore he suffered as if he had been a sinner. He suffered for all mankind.
No I am not a JW.
Ok. So then, the soul departs from the body, when the body goes to the grave?
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
Never mind. Just another distinction without a difference. You preach dormancy before oblivion for the wicked.
The Bible teaches we are either in the presence of the Lord or in hell, while the body is in the grave.
That's only in this life with repentance unto spiritual birth and renewal in the image of Christ.
A newly resurrected body from the grave.
True. Resurrection unto everlasting punishment and shame is definitely not like resurrection unto everlasting life with God.
No, that means you teach there is ever a time of no conscious thoughts with men and angels.
Once again, your unconscious dormancy doctrine is just another way of saying the soul is the body, having no independence from the body.
If the soul shuts down when the body shuts down, then the soul and the body are the same: shut down.
On earth. Not in hell and heaven.
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:
The context is obvious. It's about who's help to depend upon. Man will depart this earth. God is always here for help.
I have sufficiently for me.
True. Every man is given the chance to repent of sinning, when hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Every person is also graciously convicted of sinning by the Spirit Himself.
Only those not in the rapture to meet the Lord in the air, who are not killed by plagues, destroyed in war around Armageddon, nor judged as goats, will be remaining alive on earth to enter the King's heavenly thousand year kingdom.
Afterward, the rest of the dead not in the first resurrection of the churches, will live again to be judged by their works.
Now, this is very true. Well done. I would also add that the neighborly sheep, will also be saved and justified by Jesus Christ the King through repentance unto faith toward God.
His thousand year kingdom will begin only with newly born Christians.
True. However, not as perfected as God on the throne, who cannot even be tempted to sin.
True. And now through Christ, not all men are living in sin.
Jesus was the only sinless man, who never sinned. Those in Christ Jesus now live sin free.
Your proof does not apply to your argument. Who's saying we are greater or better than Jesus?
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.
If we're not doing good as Jesus, it's because we're not a son born of God as Jesus.
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Sure, just like Jesus after the flesh. But spiritually I am not of the first Adam, but of the 2nd.
Since the body and soul are all the same to you, then you make no difference between the spirit and life of the immortal soul, vs that of the mortal body.
Correct again. Bodily.
Me too. We just believe them differently.
You cling to a sin nature made in your body, in order to justify still sinning with your body.
I don't.
Also, Christ doesn't make any body on earth with sin.
So the Lord beat Jesus' back with stripes? He is the smiter Jesus gave His back to?
What the Father laid on His Son was the unjust rod and stripes of men.
Sin is an act. There is no sin thingy independent of the act itself. No man has sin, that is not sinning. Jesus knew no sin, because He never sinned.
No man can have sin 'laid on' nor 'inherited'. The only way to have sin is to do it. Sin can be imputed and charged, but only by committing it.
Jesus never sinned, was not a sinner, and knew no sin by sinning.
God the Spirit departed from the Son's soul for a season, so that the Son knew what it was like to be separated from God, not to be a sinner.
The suffered the price of sinning, not the sinning.
No He suffered like any righteous man unjustly treated like a sinner. Just as Abel with Cain.
He suffered because of unrighteous mankind.
He rose again for repentant mankind.
'JW' is just a known term for people who believe some of the things you do.
I suppose I could just ask you about the Godhead, but I really don't care, because it has nothing to do (yet) with the argument at hand.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I think (think is not the same as believe) that possibly one of the reasons many are leaving, is because a false representation of scripture was presented to them in the first place, and when they stop believing aspects of the false representation of the biblical truth, then because they have equated these with Christ (ianity), they turn away from Christ (ianity).
False doctrine - a false representation of the scripture - seems to be linked to apostasy in this verse:
But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons -- 1 Tim 4:1
False doctrine - a false representation of the scripture - seems to be linked to apostasy in this verse:
But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons -- 1 Tim 4:1
Unbelief tends to happen even to believers.
Translation: You didn't watch the videos either.
Here's the most important thing to understand about this topic. IMHO
After 32 pages of responses on this topic, I am the only one who actually watched the videos.
(I talked one person into watching one, or part of one, video) That's it, in over 630 posts.
So, your analysis, without viewing the interviews, is as wrong as everyone else's.
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Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Just a brief question, if not for now then later
I have a problem with pre-destination myself, except when we have been told of such like Jeremiah being chosen to be a prophet. God put his spirit into him ( as others) and all is history.
I find it beyond horrifying that Calvin specifically stated that some are chosen for salvation and some are chosen for damnation.
But would one necessarily be eternally damned?
In Mathew 10:28 it is said.... “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
If you are destroyed then would you not cease?
Or perhaps this is another misunderstanding from a translation or the author reporting said statement.
These are great questions. Let's talk it through.
Predestination is presented as a two-sided coin. I'm fine with the positive side, but not fine with the flip side.
Yes, "beyond horrifying". I agree 100%.
But most Christians shrug it off. It's good that you have seen this as a major issue.
I believe in Ultimate Redemption of all humankind. The judgment is NOT the end.
Interesting that body and soul are listed, but not spirit. We have three parts.
I like this description of refinement and cleansing.
Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
A lot at play here. Translation bias, doctrinal bias in the church, a complete lack of common sense...
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Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
I'm excited waiting for Jesus's return and the promises of Heaven. I can't Imagine someone with the lack of the Hope of our salvation in Jesus Christ, that they could walk away from that.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Yes, indeed , we do. Three parts.
But we also know that Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us... when we die.
"then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
Our spirit is unique in that it is the only part of us that communicates with our Heavenly Spirit Father.
And while I have no proof I have imagined that each spirit has its own?????????????? personality, as it were.
No that is the wrong word but each has their own individuality... adn that is why people like Jeremiah were given specific spirits for the tasks life would present.
So to me, even if God destroys both the soul and body in hell... that spirit will return to God.
Too many people believe the soul and spirit are one in the same. They are not. Yet in various places in the bible it is said, if you search what happens to your soul after death, it says that is what goes back to God.
To me, inspiration in the written word does not mean 100% accuracy.
It is easy to be confused about soul and spirit, as a result of translation difficulties from Hebrew and Greek. I think of it as:
spirit - we have a spirit part, which is what survives death in an unconscious (non-functioning) state, and which God can restore to conscious life when He resurrects us.
body - we have a physical body which enables us to interact with each other and our physical environment. The body can be considered as clothes or a vehicle in which our spirit is confined.
soul - our individual self, our personality and memories.
So when we die, the body turns back to physical elements (decays to dust, or is burned, i.e. chemically changed to gases and ashes, or perhaps eaten by animals!) and our spirit part ceases to function. Therefore our soul becomes unconscious (or dead), and is somehow stored in the spirit part.
When God created the first man, Adam, he created a physical body with a spirit part in it, in an unconscious state. He then caused the body to start breathing and functioning, so that Adam became a living, conscious soul - Gen 2:7 (WEB):
"Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Paul considered that our bodies are like a temporary dwelling place, or clothes, and that in our resurrection God will give us an immortal spirit body - 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 (WEB):
(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;
(3) if so be that being clothed we will not be found naked.
(4) For indeed we who are in this tent do groan, being burdened; not that we desire to be unclothed, but that we desire to be clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (WEB):
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead {Christians}. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.
(43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
No, I don't believe (or teach) that. I believe that the majority of mankind, that has lived since the beginning starting with Adam and Eve, will be resurrected to life at the start of the Millennial Age, and they will live on the earth for up to 1,000 years before then being judged to decide whether they will suffer the second (eternal) death (oblivion as you put it), or whether they will, by the grace of God, have eternal life.
No it doesn't. Where is the Biblical evidence for that? Hell and the grave are one and the same (Hebrew word sheol, Greek word hades) - sometimes it's translated as hell and other times it's translated as grave - just confusing (biased) translation by the translators.
So when God resurrected Jesus it was while Jesus was alive and he repented and was renewed? I don't think so! We, and Jesus, are not resurrected while we are still alive, "in this life". Resurrection occurs after we have died, for most a very long time after we have died - not until Jesus returns for the Church. It is the resurrection of the dead. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (WEB):
(13) But we don’t want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don’t grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
1 Corinthians 15:38 (WEB):
(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
Thoughts perishing, or ceasing, is just that. You're adding to Scripture by saying that it only applies while we are dead on the earth. Don't believe Satan's lie that you surely won't die. Death is the cessation of life - you can't have conscious thoughts unless you are alive.
Eccliastes 9:5 (WEB):
(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.
Psalms 115:17 (WEB):(17) The dead don’t praise Yah, neither any who go down into silence;
1Co 15:13-18(13) But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.
...
(18) Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
And his thoughts perish, so he can't be of any help then!
If you can't sufficiently prove from Scripture what you believe, and why you think I'm wrong, then it's pointless you participating in this discussion. Just saying something but not giving any Scriptural support for your claims is valueless.
So what is the point of those people, who do not have faith in God and Jesus and have taken the mark of the beast, living for 1,000 years, being ruled over by Jesus and all the resurrected Church for 1,000 years? Those "judged as goats" are not judged until the end of the 1,000 years. If the vast numbers of the dead are not resurected at the beginning of the Millenium, then what is the point of the 1,000 year reign of Christ?
So who will Christ and the resurrected Church be reigning over?
None of us can match up to the perfection of Jesus, though we should try to.
Luke 6:40 (WEB):
(40) A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.
Philippians 3:12 (WEB):
(12) Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect; but I press on, that I may take hold of that for which also I was taken hold of by Christ Jesus.
No it's not. It's an abbreviation for Jehovah's Witness.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I generally don't look at or watch videos people link to here. Only if I know they are 100% factual and not based on someone's opinion. Almost all videos will contain some truth, but also faulty interpretation of scripture and faulty conclusions based on faulty interpretation of scripture.
I spend enough time here considering people's opinions.
I watched a snippet. I've watched a part of one of that guy's videos before (the one with the YouTube channel where the above vids are posted).
There is so much error in so many of the things he claims about history and myth and the Bible, or the conclusions he comes to - but it was obvious to me that the basis of his problem was he never believed the real gospel because he never understood it.
You either have had a real encounter with the Holy Spirit convicting you of your sins and making you know beyond the shadow of any doubt that you need a Savior and that the Savior is Jesus, or you have never.
Those who never fall away have had an actual encounter with Jesus (at least once) - through His Spirit and in some people's cases (the testimony of quite a few ex Muslims), they even saw Him.
I do not trust the real reasons why that guy or those people fell away. The root that they themselves are not even aware of. I can pray for them, but that's as far as my interest goes. I love the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. I know He became a human being. I know He died. I know why He died. I'm convinced He rose again, because I understand.
And I know the Bible is the record of God's calling of lost humans. They don't call God. He calls them. God called Abraham. Not the other way around. God called Adam in the Garden after he fell.
God calls people to salvation. I don't need to know the reason why they fall away. I'm not their judge, and I'm not God to have that sort of knowledge either.
But I'm not interested in their multitudes of reasons or their reasoning which is produced in their own minds and not as based on knowledge as they imagine their reasoning to be. Their reasoning is certainly not based on understanding.
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Your false comments were against the one being interviewed, the the interviewer/host.
Again, you didn't watch the videos. You can't say.
That simply is not true, even though it is a popular position in the church.
Even supported biblically. (which ignores the context)
/
Why? Because they're stupid and have been lead astray.Bible scholars are leaving Christianity in droves. Why?
Not because they don't understand the Bible, obviously. (they're Bible scholars)
- Do you have to be Christian to believe in God?
- Do you have to agree with the institutional church's positions to believe in God?
Previous topic on this subject.
Leaving Room for Faith - why we don't know EVERYTHING
At one time I was bothered by the fact that we don't really have ALL the answers. There was always a loose end somewhere. I chased the apologetics in every direction, but always came up short somewhere. And frankly, I don't remember the specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny...www.christianityboard.com
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