Why are Catholics so bad?

[Axehead]

Axehead - you are suggesting that we compare all teaching to the Bible Alone. So you are suggesting that we use a Protestant standard (sola Scriptura) as a final authority. How is this going to help us agree?

Seems to me I could just as easily suggest that we compare our understanding of scripture with the teaching of the Vatican and if it doesn't disagree we know it must be true.

See my point? You are suggesting that my problem is that I am not viewing doctrine in a Reformed manner.

As far as Foreigner is concerned, he is able to speak for himself.

I don't consider that a "Protestant" standard.

Catholics make the mistake of comparing Scripture with their traditions and instead they should compare their traditions with God's Word.

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

I don't consider that a "Protestant" standard.

Catholics make the mistake of comparing Scripture with their traditions and instead they should compare their traditions with God's Word.

Axehead

His Catholic Church does.

 

[Foreigner]

I will grant you one thing, Aspen....when you shovel you do use both hands.

We are talking about the Scapular, you appear not to like like how the conversation is going, so you - out of the blue - make this unrelated comment: "How many threads have I started about Protestants not being Christians?"

No idea where that has came from, so I respond in kind, stating: "How many threads have I started about Catholics not being Christians?"

And your response to that? ----> "you have resorted to re-framing my post."

And for the record, I am even more tickled to find that FOX News bothers you even more than I first thought.



But let's get to the point, shall we?

I point out to Mungo that his information about the Scapular is actually not accurate as per the Vatican and several Popes.
I provide ONLY a link and the actual wording of the information from the Vatican and from the religious order itself.

You then out of the blue chime in with: "Well, it is always nice to be able to mock the things you used to believe in, yourself and other Christians still find meaningful, right Foreigner?"

You then follow up with: "If you judge a religious tradition by their uneducated members, you can find all kinds of errors to exploit."

I point out that this tradition, one that states,"that whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire ...." and
"I, Mother of Grace, shall descent on the Saturday afte rtheir death and whomever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of everlasting life" has actually been supported by multiple Popes and saints throughout history.

Now, if you feel that this tradition is wrong and yet several Popes support it, just who exactly falls into the category of "uneducated member?"

I eagerly await your answer.

Please try to focus on this specific answer, though, and let's avoid the tangents, shall we?

 

[aspen]

I don't consider that a "Protestant" standard.

Catholics make the mistake of comparing Scripture with their traditions and instead they should compare their traditions with God's Word.

Axehead

that is because you are a protestant.

 

[Axehead]

I'm a Believer and follower of Christ, Aspen. And a blood bought child of God. What is a Protestant?

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

I'm a Believer and follower of Christ, Aspen. And a blood bought child of God. What is a Protestant?

Axehead

A Protestant is usually a Christian brother or sister who protests against the one and only Church ever formed by Jesus, with His apostles/successors as the nucleus of that Church. The only Church that can claim Apostolic lineage for the past two thousand years is only the One Holy Catholic Church.

 

[Axehead]

A Protestant is usually a Christian brother or sister who protests against the one and only Church ever formed by Jesus, with His apostles/successors as the nucleus of that Church. The only Church that can claim Apostolic lineage for the past two thousand years is only the One Holy Catholic Church.

Well, I don't protest against the RCC and very few people do today, anymore. I never think about the RCC except when I am reading a thread about it. Maybe, there was a lot of protesting in the 15th through 18th century, even the 19th, but most people I know just regard it as a false church and go about their business because of their false claims and doctrines. There is no mention of a "Mother" Church in the NT and there was even a female Apostle (Junia). Why didn't that "tradition" carry forward into the current day?

Anyway, onward and upward my friend. What is important is being joined to Jesus not to an organization. If you are joined to Jesus you are in the RIGHT Church and the ONLY Church, because you are joined to Him. On the other hand you can be joined to a church but have nothing to do with Jesus and we see this all the time, today.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

A Protestant is usually a Christian brother or sister who protests against the one and only Church ever formed by Jesus, with His apostles/successors as the nucleus of that Church. The only Church that can claim Apostolic lineage for the past two thousand years is only the One Holy Catholic Church.

The Jews claimed a better lineage than that...a family lineage! Did that help them?

The only real connection we have with the apostles and even Jesus Himself is the Holy Spirit. If you are not led by the Spirit you are going to oblivion. If Christ is not living in you then you are a reprobate.

 

[aspen]

A protestant is a Christian who believes in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo, and Sola Deo Gloria. You have embraced the doctrine of Sola Scriptura so much that you believe it is the only way all Christians think.

 

[Axehead]

A protestant is a Christian who believes in Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo, and Sola Deo Gloria. You have embraced the doctrine of Sola Scriptura so much that you believe it is the only way all Christians think.

I just believe in the simplicity of Christ. Your theological system is far too complicated for me. You have the 900 page Catechism, rituals, praying to Saints and Saints that specialize in specific needs, and praying to Mary.

All I can say is, WHERE IS JESUS? What does He get to do?

Then you have priests that can turn a wafer into the body, blood and divinity of Christ but not control their passions or heal the sick. I know you said Christ does the changing, but if Christ will do this miracle through priests actively engaging in horrible sin then why doesn't Jesus heal the sick through these same priests? Or better still, why doesn't Jesus heal the sick through priests who are actually controlling themselves and fleeing youthful lusts? It is all too unreal and non-biblical to me. I think a lot of people are hood-winked.

But any Church that says THEY HAVE ALL THE TRUTH can make the rules I suppose (and change them at will, too).

Axehead

 

[aspen]

Axehead said

I just believe in the simplicity of Christ. Your theological system is far too complicated for me. You have the 900 page Catechism, rituals, praying to Saints and Saints that specialize in specific needs, and praying to Mary.

Everything Christians do in church is a ritual, just like most activities we do at home and work are routines and rituals. Neither praying with saints nor reading the Catechism is necessary for salvation. Complexity and personal discomfort on your part, have nothing to do with whether Catholic doctrines are correct or not.

All I can say is, WHERE IS JESUS? What does He get to do?

If you have ever been to Mass, you would not ask where Jesus is - the entire Mass is focused on Him. Do you really think Jesus is wondering what he gets to do? Jesus 'gets to' reconcile us with His Father.

Then you have priests that can turn a wafer into the body, blood and divinity of Christ but not control their passions or heal the sick.

Ah, so you are determined to believe that all priests magically turn the bread and wine into Jesus, themselves, and then head off to molest little boys.....nicely done! I suppose Protestant ministers who molest children are just rotten apples in a godly systems, right? All you are doing is telling us that you do not like Catholicism - ok I got it. Of course, your opinion about my church has nothing to do with the reality of the Mass or the Catholic priesthood.

I know you said Christ does the changing, but if Christ will do this miracle through priests actively engaging in horrible sin then why doesn't Jesus heal the sick through these same priests?

Not sure where you are getting the idea that priest do not heal the sick. One of the seven sacraments is prayers for the sick - priests are called to pray for the sick and dying all the time.

Or better still, why doesn't Jesus heal the sick through priests who are actually controlling themselves and fleeing youthful lusts? It is all too unreal and non-biblical to me. I think a lot of people are hood-winked.

Then I guess you have a problem with all Christian leaders - sounds like an authority issue to me. You are not alone - many Americans who reject Christianity share you beliefs about Christian leaders.

But any Church that says THEY HAVE ALL THE TRUTH can make the rules I suppose (and change them at will, too).

Then I guess you also have a problem with all churches and denominations. You are not alone - many Americans who reject Christianity share you beliefs about church.

 

[Axehead]

Axehead said

I just believe in the simplicity of Christ. Your theological system is far too complicated for me. You have the 900 page Catechism, rituals, praying to Saints and Saints that specialize in specific needs, and praying to Mary.

Everything Christians do in church is a ritual, just like most activities we do at home and work are routines and rituals. Neither praying with saints nor reading the Catechism is necessary for salvation. Complexity and personal discomfort on your part, have nothing to do with whether Catholic doctrines are correct or not.

All I can say is, WHERE IS JESUS? What does He get to do?

If you have ever been to Mass, you would not ask where Jesus is - the entire Mass is focused on Him. Do you really think Jesus is wondering what he gets to do? Jesus 'gets to' reconcile us with His Father.

Then you have priests that can turn a wafer into the body, blood and divinity of Christ but not control their passions or heal the sick.

Ah, so you are determined to believe that all priests magically turn the bread and wine into Jesus, themselves, and then head off to molest little boys.....nicely done! I suppose Protestant ministers who molest children are just rotten apples in a godly systems, right? All you are doing is telling us that you do not like Catholicism - ok I got it. Of course, your opinion about my church has nothing to do with the reality of the Mass or the Catholic priesthood.

I know you said Christ does the changing, but if Christ will do this miracle through priests actively engaging in horrible sin then why doesn't Jesus heal the sick through these same priests?

Not sure where you are getting the idea that priest do not heal the sick. One of the seven sacraments is prayers for the sick - priests are called to pray for the sick and dying all the time.

Or better still, why doesn't Jesus heal the sick through priests who are actually controlling themselves and fleeing youthful lusts? It is all too unreal and non-biblical to me. I think a lot of people are hood-winked.

Then I guess you have a problem with all Christian leaders - sounds like an authority issue to me. You are not alone - many Americans who reject Christianity share you beliefs about Christian leaders.

But any Church that says THEY HAVE ALL THE TRUTH can make the rules I suppose (and change them at will, too).

Then I guess you also have a problem with all churches and denominations. You are not alone - many Americans who reject Christianity share you beliefs about church.

The most important thing is to come under and submit to the Authority of Jesus Christ, and He Himself tells us to come out of anything that harbors idolatry and preaches a false gospel. That includes Protestant or Catholic churches.

I have a problem with any so-called authority that presumes to usurp the Authority of Christ on earth and claim to stand in His rightful place in the midst of the Church as her Head.

When I see the Catholic church line up with God's Word, I will be happy to be a part of it, because God's Word is not going to comply with the RCC. And that goes for many Protestant churches too. When they line up with God's Word I will be happy to be a part of them. In the meantime, He says to come out of anything that makes a home for idolatry and is part of the world's religious system. In the meantime I am finding Christ where He is at; outside the camp. The religious world in His day pushed Him outside the camp (Jerusalem) and the religious world today has pushed Him outside their camp. That's ok. In fact, it is normal. Jesus is still being persecuted today by the religious world but His children know where to find Him.


Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Axehead

 

[aspen]

Well, it is your choice to believe that you know better than 2,000 years worth of god's people. As for me, I decided to stop rebelling against God's Church and following the dream of starting over and over and over again chasing the rainbow of the perfect understanding of Christ - I've got too much loving God and others to do.

blessings

 

[Axehead]

Well, it is your choice to believe that you know better than 2,000 years worth of god's people. As for me, I decided to stop rebelling against God's Church and following the dream of starting over and over and over again chasing the rainbow of the perfect understanding of Christ - I've got too much loving God and others to do.

blessings

That's great Aspen. I feel no rebellion inside me at all regarding God's Church. There is 2,000 years of God directing His people by HIS Holy Spirit. His people have always been a Remnant in the Wilderness and are not characterized by massively large numbers.

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

The most important thing is to come under and submit to the Authority of Jesus Christ, and He Himself tells us to come out of anything that harbors idolatry and preaches a false gospel. That includes Protestant or Catholic churches.

I have a problem with any so-called authority that presumes to usurp the Authority of Christ on earth and claim to stand in His rightful place in the midst of the Church as her Head.

When I see the Catholic church line up with God's Word, I will be happy to be a part of it, because God's Word is not going to comply with the RCC. And that goes for many Protestant churches too. When they line up with God's Word I will be happy to be a part of them. In the meantime, He says to come out of anything that makes a home for idolatry and is part of the world's religious system. In the meantime I am finding Christ where He is at; outside the camp. The religious world in His day pushed Him outside the camp (Jerusalem) and the religious world today has pushed Him outside their camp. That's ok. In fact, it is normal. Jesus is still being persecuted today by the religious world but His children know where to find Him.


Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Axehead

Axehead, your interpretation of Heb. 13: 13 is erroneous, that verse is speaking about how they should not entertain the notion that Judaism and Christianity can be intermingled.
As Jesus died separated from His own people, so must the Christian community remain apart from the religious doctrines of Judaism [ Heb. 13: 11-14 ]
Christ must be the heart and center of the community [ Heb.13:15-16 ].

Also Axehead you really aren't taking into consideration of that which Jesus left for "all'' of us and that is His continuos sanctifying work on this earth. To make sure that this work to continue for "all " of us Jesus established His "priesthood " , this is proven by these verses.-

[ 2 Cor.5: 20 ]- " On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as it were, appealing through us ".

[ Hebrews 5:1 ] - Every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in the things pertaining to God, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. "

Your way of belief is in complete opposition to that which Jesus established.It is just one among many of the thousands invented by mere-men.Even Martin Luther, later in life, discouragingly wrote something to the effect that "now unfortunately there appears as many minds as there are gospels."

 

[Episkopos]

That's great Aspen. I feel no rebellion inside me at all regarding God's Church. There is 2,000 years of God directing His people by HIS Holy Spirit. His people have always been a Remnant in the Wilderness and are not characterized by massively large numbers.

Axehead

Amen! One must literally look internationally to find enough consecrated disciples to "fill one church". It is not for nothing that Jesus said "where 2 or 3 are gathered"...this is a high concentration of actual "living sacrifices" in any one region.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo says:

"Ok, here is another one:

50. Crucifix & scapulas worn as charms or fashion statements. The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, an English monk, in the year 1287 A.D., It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. This is fetishism.

That Simon Stock invented the scapula is a pious tradition not a historical fact. And according to the Catholic Encyclopaedia he died in 1265, some 22 years before your claim that he invented the scapula.

If anyone is using a scapula as a lucky charm, with the beliefs you give above, then they are wrong. However we need to distinguish between what the Catholic Church officially teaches and sanctions, and what some ignorant and stupid Catholics do.

The most popular scapula is the brown scapula of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (the one associated with Simon Stock).

I found this on Carmelnet.org (quotes in red):

The Scapular finds its roots in the tradition of the Order [that's the Carmelites], which has seen in it a sign of Mary’s motherly protection. It has therefore, a centuries old spiritual meaning approved by Church.
It stands for a commitment to follow Jesus, like Mary, the perfect model of all the disciples of Christ. This commitment finds its origin in baptism by which we become children of God.
It leads us into the community of Carmel, a community of religious men and women, which has existed in the Church for over eight centuries.
It reminds us of the example of the saints of Carmel, with whom we establish a close bond as brothers and sisters to one another.
It is an expression of our belief that we will meet God in eternal life, aided by the intercession and prayers of Mary.

This is important:

The Carmelite Scapular is not:
a magical charm to protect you
an automatic guarantee of salvation
an excuse for not living up to the demands of the Christian life

It is a sign:
which has been approved by the Church for over seven centuries;
which stands for the decision to
- follow Jesus like Mary:
- be open to God and to his will
- be guided by faith, hope, and love
- to pray at all times
- to discover God present in all that happens around us.

(Note that the site tells is that this is The only official text regarding the Brown Scapular written by a joint commission of OCD’s (Discalced Carmelite Order) and OCarm’s (Carmelite Order) in 1999.)"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



-- Apparently, the Vatican didn't get that memo.
As of four years ago when my brother was there the Vatican Gift Shop was selling the Brown Scapular, with this documentation:
(He knows I am no longer a Catholic. He got it for me as sort of a sentimental joke.)

"The Scapular was presented by Our Lady to St. Simon Stock, the Father General of the Carmelite Order, on July 16, 1251."

"Our Lady gave St. Simon a scapular for the Carmelites with the following promise, saying : Receive, My beloved son, this habit of thy order: this shall be to thee and to all Carmelites a privilege, that whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire .... It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger, and a pledge of peace."

Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: "I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting."

According to Church tradition, there are three conditions necessary to participate in this Privilege and share in the other spiritual benefits of the Scapular: wear the Brown Scapular, observe chastity according to your state in life, and pray the Rosary.

Many popes and saints have strongly recommended wearing, the Brown Scapular to the Catholic Faithful, including St. Robert Bellarmine, Pope John XXII, Pope Pius Xl, and Pope Benedict XV. For example, St. Alphonsus said: "Just as men take pride in having others wear their livery, so the Most Holy Mary is pleased when Her servants wear Her Scapular as a mark that they have dedicated themselves to Her service, and are members of the Family of the Mother of God.

Pope Pius XII went so far as to say: "The Scapular is a practice of piety which by its very simplicity is suited to everyone, and has spread widely among the faithful of Christ to their spiritual profit." In our own times, Pope Paul VI said: "Let the faithful hold in high esteem the practices and devotions to the Blessed Virgin ... the Rosary and the Scapular of Carmel" and in another place referred to the Scapular as: "so highly recommended by our illustrious predecessors."


I found the exact same documentation on catholic-church.org. I gather that is where it came from: http://www.catholic-...el/scapular.htm

It mirrors EXACTLY what I was taught when I wore the Scapular from 7th grade through 12th grade. The one part the Vatican, my Bishop and my priest neglected to mention was :

"In order to receive the spiritual blessings associated with the Scapular, it is necessary to be formally enrolled in the Brown Scapular by either a priest or a lay person who has been given this faculty."


To this day I thank God He didn't allow me to die believing these false teachings.


.

Foreigner,

The Vatican Gift Shop is not run by the Vatican.

Anyone can call themselves that. The Vatican doesn't have a monopoly on the word "Vatican"
If you took the trouble to look it up as I have you would find it is in a small side street the other side of the Castel Sant' Angelo from the Vatican.

There is nothing wrong with wearing the brown scapula IF you take do it properly.

As the Carmelites said

It stands for a commitment to follow Jesus, like Mary, the perfect model of all the disciples of Christ. This commitment finds its origin in baptism by which we become children of God.

It leads us into the community of Carmel, a community of religious men and women, which has existed in the Church for over eight centuries.

It reminds us of the example of the saints of Carmel, with whom we establish a close bond as brothers and sisters to one another.

It is an expression of our belief that we will meet God in eternal life, aided by the intercession and prayers of Mary.

The Carmelite Scapular is not:
a magical charm to protect you
an automatic guarantee of salvation
an excuse for not living up to the demands of the Christian life

"Our Lady gave St. Simon a scapular for the Carmelites with the following promise, saying : Receive, My beloved son, this habit of thy order: this shall be to thee and to all Carmelites a privilege, that whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire .... It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger, and a pledge of peace."

On the Carmelite site I qiuoted from a Carmelite priest writing an article about the scapular says the following
The scapular is the most popular devotion in the Catholic Church, yet it is widely misunderstood. Our "knowledge" of this sacramental is a confusion of popular legends, papal forgeries, stolen stories, and "can you top this" approach to the Blessed Mother.
He is specifically disowning such legends as valid.

The Catholic Encyclopaedia says about this:
According to a pious tradition…… This tradition, however, appears in such a precise form for the first time in 1642 [which is 391 years after the supposed vision of Simon Stock.] ...it has now been sufficiently shown that this testimony cannot be supported by historical documents....

Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: "I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting."

The Catholic Encyclopaedia has this to say about the Sabbetine Privilege:

The Sabbatine Privilege is derived from the apocryphal Bull Sacratissimo uti culmine of John XXII, March 3, 1322…….. Today it is universally regarded by scholars as inauthentic, even the "Monumenta histor. Carmel." of the Carmelite B. Zimmerman (I, Lérins, 1907, pp. 356-63) joining in rejecting it.

Again from the Carmelite site
Another significant problem regarding the authenticity of the Sabbatine Bull is that there is no record, much less copy, of this bull in the papal archives. While this would not guarantee 100% against the authenticity of a particular bull, combined with the other evidence it does indicate almost certain forgery. Carmelite historians have indeed determined that the bull is a fifteenth century forgery originating in Sicily.

But let's get to the point, shall we?

I point out to Mungo that his information about the Scapular is actually not accurate as per the Vatican and several Popes.
I provide ONLY a link and the actual wording of the information from the Vatican and from the religious order itself.

NO YOU DID NOT

You pointed me to a "Vatican Gift Shop" site which is NOTHING to do with the Vatican.

You pointed me a carmelite site, NOT the official Carlemite site with the OFFICIAL statements concerning the brown scapula

As I said in my post this is:
The only official text regarding the Brown Scapular written by a joint commission of OCD’s (Discalced Carmelite Order) and OCarm’s (Carmelite Order) in 1999.

For more information without all the hysteria and forged claims - http://carmelnet.org...ar/scapular.htm

The most important thing is to come under and submit to the Authority of Jesus Christ,
Axehead

You do that by submitting to the authority of the Catholic Church to whom Jesus gave his authority.

 

[Episkopos]

Axehead, on 27 August 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

The most important thing is to come under and submit to the Authority of Jesus Ch rist,
Axehead

You do that by submitting to the authority of the Catholic Church to whom Jesus gave his authority.


There is no mediator between man and Christ.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Isa 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

 

[neophyte]

You do that by submitting to the authority of the Catholic Church to whom Jesus gave his authority.


There is no mediator between man and Christ.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Isa 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit,that they may add sin to sin:

In Scripture, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as priests, or "mediators between God and men." For example, after the Resurrection, our Lord appears to the apostles and says to them: "‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" [ John 20: 21-23 ]
Here, Jesus communicated the power to forgive and retain sins—just as he himself had done—to the apostles. This is a ' Church' priestly ministry [ Lv.19: 21-23 ] [ Romans 13: 17 ] [ 2 Cor. 5: 20 ] [ Hebrews 5: 1 ]

 

[Episkopos]

In Scripture, we see our Lord definitively choosing and sending apostles to act as priests, or "mediators between God and men." For example, after the Resurrection, our Lord appears to the apostles and says to them: "‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" [ John 20: 21-23 ]
Here, Jesus communicated the power to forgive and retain sins—just as he himself had done—to the apostles. This is a ' Church' priestly ministry [ Lv.19: 21-23 ] [ Romans 13: 17 ] [ 2 Cor. 5: 20 ] [ Hebrews 5: 1 ]

A disciple IS a mediator of the covenant between God and UNREGENERATE man. If you admit that Catholics are unregenerate then I will agree with you.