Why are Catholics so bad?

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neophyte

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A disciple IS a mediator of the covenant between God and UNREGENERATE man. If you admit that Catholics are unregenerate then I will agree with you.

I see where you're having comprehension difficulties Episkopos. I'll spell it out for you.
Let me ask u Episkopos ; What did Jesus do to continue His sanctifying work on earth ? You really don't like to hear where Jesus only left His Church [ Jesus said "my church" ] and to continue His sanctifying work He established the Priesthood / prebyters.Jesus appointed twelve apostles ,they ordained others [ the Bible way ] = " On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as itwere, appealing through us " [ 2 Cor. 5:20 ]

again -

"Every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in the things pertaining to God, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins [ Hebrew 5: 1 ]

We can witness from the Bible where Christ's teaching apostles consecrated Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Titus and Matthias. Found in Acts 13:3, 14:22, and Titus 1:5 .

The authority for His Priesthood comes from Jesus - " He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me " [ Luke 10: 16 }

" For this reason I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst appoint prespyters [ priests ] in every city, as I myself directed thee to do [ Titus 1: 5 ]

" Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven " [ Matt. 16: 19 ]

" As the Father has sent me, I also send you " [ John 20: 21 ]

" All power ....... teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you " [ Matt. 28: 18-20 ]

Jesus came to us because "all" of mankind has been in need of a 'regeneration' not just Catholics.
 

Episkopos

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I see where you're having comprehension difficulties Episkopos. I'll spell it out for you.
Let me ask u Episkopos ; What did Jesus do to continue His sanctifying work on earth ? You really don't like to hear where Jesus only left His Church [ Jesus said "my church" ] and to continue His sanctifying work He established the Priesthood / prebyters.Jesus appointed twelve apostles ,they ordained others [ the Bible way ] = " On behalf of Christ, therefore, we are acting as ambassadors, God, as itwere, appealing through us " [ 2 Cor. 5:20 ]

again -

"Every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in the things pertaining to God, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins [ Hebrew 5: 1 ]

We can witness from the Bible where Christ's teaching apostles consecrated Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Titus and Matthias. Found in Acts 13:3, 14:22, and Titus 1:5 .

The authority for His Priesthood comes from Jesus - " He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me " [ Luke 10: 16 }

" For this reason I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst appoint prespyters [ priests ] in every city, as I myself directed thee to do [ Titus 1: 5 ]

" Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven " [ Matt. 16: 19 ]

" As the Father has sent me, I also send you " [ John 20: 21 ]

" All power ....... teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you " [ Matt. 28: 18-20 ]

Jesus came to us because "all" of mankind has been in need of a 'regeneration' not just Catholics.

The early church was overthrown through persecution. Those who replaced the saints were clerics (stooges) of the ruling powers. Corruption entered as the gospel was subverted. Men turned aside to religion and the control of the masses. ;)

There is neither a separate priesthood nor clergy in the Church that is of Christ. That system is done away with in Christ. There is one Lord and all are brethren. The errors would take an entire site to enumerate let alone one thread.

So the simplicity which is in Christ need not pass through religious clerics with fancy clothes. You can indeed fool most of the people most of the time...but not all.
 

aspen

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The early church was overthrown through persecution. Those who replaced the saints were clerics (stooges) of the ruling powers. Corruption entered as the gospel was subverted. Men turned aside to religion and the control of the masses. ;)

There is neither a separate priesthood nor clergy in the Church that is of Christ. That system is done away with in Christ. There is one Lord and all are brethren. The errors would take an entire site to enumerate let alone one thread.

So the simplicity which is in Christ need not pass through religious clerics with fancy clothes. You can indeed fool most of the people most of the time...but not all.

This idea is less than 600 years old. Christianity is over 2,000 years old.
 

Axehead

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Well, you have to do everything you can to safeguard the special class of "priest" in the Romish church, because without it the Mass and the Eucharist would cease to exist. Isn't it interesting how very much like the OT, the Catholic Church is? Instead of the Priesthood of Believers, they still retain a special class of Priests that must reside over certain things that a normal Christian has no privilege or "authority" to do. (A normal Christian would not want to anyway). Instead of NT grace we find OT system of works.

If Catholicism really IS the one and only Church founded by Jesus Christ, then its organization, its doctrines and its liturgies should dovetail with what is known about the apostolic Church. But, when the written records are consulted - those found in the Bible, the history books and the writings of the early Church saints, many are hard pressed to find how today's Roman Catholic Church is even remotely related to the Church instituted by Christ and propagated by His Disciples. What most find is a religion, not of grace, but of works, governed not by independent bishops, but of a self-styled monarch and "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matt 15:9)

The Catholic apologists are a tireless lot for sure as they deliberately engage in the "aging" of doctrines to create for Rome a reputation of great antiquity, stability and holiness combined with absolute, God-given authority. Their tireless efforts have yielded the desired results for almost 1 billion people (the Faithful) presently think it is the SAME EXACT FAITH instituted by Christ and His Apostles.

But all the claims of longevity are just that: CLAIMS. All of Rome's propaganda about Catholicism's antiquity is self-assumed and has no relationship whatever to the truth. The RCC is full of CLAIMS unsubstantiated by history, the Holy Scriptures or the writings of early church saints. It is amazing how undaunted Rome is in the face of reality and truth continuing to insist that Catholicism is the one and only true Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ presides over an "organic" body of Believers and not over a multi-billion dollar organization.

Of Catholicism's many heresies this must be cited as the first and foremost one - that the RCC is the church founded by Jesus Christ. Then, all the rest of their heresies emanate from this one. And this is why Rome has such antipathy for the Scriptures.

I will continue with another 20 beliefs that are considered Oral Tradition and cannot be found in the Scriptures. We will then have 60 beliefs called Oral Tradition that have no basis in Scripture.

Many forget that the Lord did not just leave 12 Apostles on earth but 120 disciples. They were all indwelt by and filled with the Holy Spirit who empowered them to carry the Gospel to the whole world. Not one of the 120 disciples was a Catholic, nor were Peter, James, John, Thomas, or any of the other Apostles, Catholics. Those that came after them, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Linus, Cletus, etc., were Christians, not Catholics. When Polycarp was martyred in the middle of the 2nd century a crowd of people called him "father of Christians". However, Polycarp declared, "I am a Christian". In the Bible we read, "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (Act 11:26).

In 325AD, 225 years following the Apostolic church, was a synod of Christian, not Catholic bishops. It was convened and supervised by the emperor. Constantine, an alleged convert to Christianity, not Catholicism. At the time there were at least 1800 known Christian, not Catholic, churches, each one independent of the others, each led by its own bishop. The council was attended by 318 of those bishops, but Sylvester, the sitting bishop of Rome, (who is listed by the Vatican as a Catholic Pope) was not among them. Historically, the designation "Catholic" is not found in common usage until the fifth century. Church historian, Eusebius, writing in the 4th century, recorded events of Christendom's early years without once mentioning a Catholic Church. Near the start of the 5th century, Augustine, bishop of Hippo in Africa, was called by his mother a "Catholic Christian."

With these facts in mind, many conclude that what was passed on by Christ's disciples to their successors was not a religious denomination--Catholicism--but the simple grace based Christian faith from the Lord Jesus. History, the Bible, the writings of the early church saints, these offer no support whatever for Rome's claims that Catholicism was the one and only true church founded by Jesus; nor that Christ ordained Peter as bishop of Rome and the first pope. The so-called "holy sacrifice of the Mass," was unknown in the apostolic church; the Lord's Supper was a memorial, not a reenactment, of Calvary and there were no priests allegedly endowed with the power to take the place of Jesus here on earth. Baptism was not mandatory for salvation or receipt of the Holy Spirit. No works were required of the individual who wished to be saved, only faith in Christ Jesus.

I don't dispute that the Romish church emerged from apostolic Christianity. So did the eastern branch of Christendom, known today as the Orthodox Church. So did the Anabaptists, the Arians, the Docetists, the Marcions, the Ebionites, the Gnostics, etc. All emerged from the same Christian roots are are eloquent proof that common beginnings do not guarantee truth will be the end result.

Axehead

Many thanks to my good friend John in Georgia for educating me about these things.
 

Episkopos

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This idea is less than 600 years old. Christianity is over 2,000 years old.

Constantine actually put the last nail in the coffin of the simple church in the Spirit as the main expression of the Body over 1,600 years ago.
 

aspen

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Well, you have to do everything you can to safeguard the special class of "priest" in the Romish church, because without it the Mass and the Eucharist would cease to exist. Isn't it interesting how very much like the OT, the Catholic Church is? Instead of the Priesthood of Believers, they still retain a special class of Priests that must reside over certain things that a normal Christian has no privilege or "authority" to do. (A normal Christian would not want to anyway). Instead of NT grace we find OT system of works.

If Catholicism really IS the one and only Church founded by Jesus Christ, then its organization, its doctrines and its liturgies should dovetail with what is known about the apostolic Church. But, when the written records are consulted - those found in the Bible, the history books and the writings of the early Church saints, many are hard pressed to find how today's Roman Catholic Church is even remotely related to the Church instituted by Christ and propagated by His Disciples. What most find is a religion, not of grace, but of works, governed not by independent bishops, but of a self-styled monarch and "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matt 15:9)

The Catholic apologists are a tireless lot for sure as they deliberately engage in the "aging" of doctrines to create for Rome a reputation of great antiquity, stability and holiness combined with absolute, God-given authority. Their tireless efforts have yielded the desired results for almost 1 billion people (the Faithful) presently think it is the SAME EXACT FAITH instituted by Christ and His Apostles.

But all the claims of longevity are just that: CLAIMS. All of Rome's propaganda about Catholicism's antiquity is self-assumed and has no relationship whatever to the truth. The RCC is full of CLAIMS unsubstantiated by history, the Holy Scriptures or the writings of early church saints. It is amazing how undaunted Rome is in the face of reality and truth continuing to insist that Catholicism is the one and only true Church founded by Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ presides over an "organic" body of Believers and not over a multi-billion dollar organization.

Of Catholicism's many heresies this must be cited as the first and foremost one - that the RCC is the church founded by Jesus Christ. Then, all the rest of their heresies emanate from this one. And this is why Rome has such antipathy for the Scriptures.

I will continue with another 20 beliefs that are considered Oral Tradition and cannot be found in the Scriptures. We will then have 60 beliefs called Oral Tradition that have no basis in Scripture.

Many forget that the Lord did not just leave 12 Apostles on earth but 120 disciples. They were all indwelt by and filled with the Holy Spirit who empowered them to carry the Gospel to the whole world. Not one of the 120 disciples was a Catholic, nor were Peter, James, John, Thomas, or any of the other Apostles, Catholics. Those that came after them, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Linus, Cletus, etc., were Christians, not Catholics. When Polycarp was martyred in the middle of the 2nd century a crowd of people called him "father of Christians". However, Polycarp declared, "I am a Christian". In the Bible we read, "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (Act 11:26).

In 325AD, 225 years following the Apostolic church, was a synod of Christian, not Catholic bishops. It was convened and supervised by the emperor. Constantine, an alleged convert to Christianity, not Catholicism. At the time there were at least 1800 known Christian, not Catholic, churches, each one independent of the others, each led by its own bishop. The council was attended by 318 of those bishops, but Sylvester, the sitting bishop of Rome, (who is listed by the Vatican as a Catholic Pope) was not among them. Historically, the designation "Catholic" is not found in common usage until the fifth century. Church historian, Eusebius, writing in the 4th century, recorded events of Christendom's early years without once mentioning a Catholic Church. Near the start of the 5th century, Augustine, bishop of Hippo in Africa, was called by his mother a "Catholic Christian."

With these facts in mind, many conclude that what was passed on by Christ's disciples to their successors was not a religious denomination--Catholicism--but the simple grace based Christian faith from the Lord Jesus. History, the Bible, the writings of the early church saints, these offer no support whatever for Rome's claims that Catholicism was the one and only true church founded by Jesus; nor that Christ ordained Peter as bishop of Rome and the first pope. The so-called "holy sacrifice of the Mass," was unknown in the apostolic church; the Lord's Supper was a memorial, not a reenactment, of Calvary and there were no priests allegedly endowed with the power to take the place of Jesus here on earth. Baptism was not mandatory for salvation or receipt of the Holy Spirit. No works were required of the individual who wished to be saved, only faith in Christ Jesus.

I don't dispute that the Romish church emerged from apostolic Christianity. So did the eastern branch of Christendom, known today as the Orthodox Church. So did the Anabaptists, the Arians, the Docetists, the Marcions, the Ebionites, the Gnostics, etc. All emerged from the same Christian roots are are eloquent proof that common beginnings do not guarantee truth will be the end result.

Axehead

Many thanks to my good friend John in Georgia for educating me about these things.

Wow sure am glad you have found the true faith, 2,000 years later. Ever considered the fact that Catholicism might look a bit like Judaism because it came from Judaism? So which is it? Does the Catholic Church like the Early Church have Jewish roots or is it completely unrelated?

Then you can show me the history of sola scriptura and sola fide in the Early Church.

Constantine actually put the last nail in the coffin of the simple church in the Spirit as the main expression of the Body over 1,600 years ago.

And what was that nail? Hosting the Catholic Council that determined the Canon of the Bible?
 

Axehead

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Wow sure am glad you have found the true faith, 2,000 years later.

Actually, the true Jesus found me and by His grace I responded to His call.

Ever considered the fact that Catholicism might look a bit like Judaism because it came from Judaism?
I wouldn't go that far and we don't want to be mistaken for insulting Judaism. The RCC simply hijacked Judaistic concepts and incorporated them into their Old Testament-like hybrid system. It does not reflect Apostolic Christianity in the least.

Axehead
 

aspen

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Actually, the true Jesus found me and by His grace I responded to His call.


I wouldn't go that far and we don't want to be mistaken for insulting Judaism. The RCC simply hijacked Judaistic concepts and incorporated them into their Old Testament-like hybrid system. It does not reflect Apostolic Christianity in the least.

Axehead

I see you have ignored my request; is that because there is no example of sola scriptura and sola fide in the Early Church?
 

Axehead

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I see you have ignored my request; is that because there is no example of sola scriptura and sola fide in the Early Church?

I can't ascribe totally to sola scriptura because I rely on His voice to my spirit a great deal.

I do believe that Jesus held Scripture in the highest regard but He also hearkened to His Father's voice: “The Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35); “Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything has been accomplished” (Matt. 5:18); “It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law” (Luke 16:17); “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matt. 24:35). Jesus even asserted that greatness in heaven will be measured by obedience to Scripture (Matt. 5:19).

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

So, to be like Jesus we must hold the Scriptures and the Voice of the Holy Spirit in high esteem. These two have authority in a Believer's life.


Also, Scripture derives none of its authority from the church; its authority is inherent because it is the very Word of the living God: “All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16).

Axehead
 

Foreigner

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It stands for a commitment to follow Jesus, like Mary, the perfect model of all the disciples of Christ. This commitment finds its origin in baptism by which we become children of God.
It leads us into the community of Carmel, a community of religious men and women, which has existed in the Church for over eight centuries.
It reminds us of the example of the saints of Carmel, with whom we establish a close bond as brothers and sisters to one another.
It is an expression of our belief that we will meet God in eternal life, aided by the intercession and prayers of Mary. - Mungo




"Our Lady gave St. Simon a scapular for the Carmelites with the following promise, saying : Receive, My beloved son, this habit of thy order: this shall be to thee and to all Carmelites a privilege, that whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire .... It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger, and a pledge of peace."

Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: "I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting."


Those statements were supported by:
Pope John XXII
Pope Pius XI
Pope Pius XII
Pope Paul VI
Pope Benedict XV
St. Alphonsus
St. Robert Bellarmine

Perhaps you agree with Aspen that these are "uneducated members" of the Catholic church?
 

aspen

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Perhaps you agree with Aspen that these are "uneducated members" of the Catholic church?

I see you are continuing to bear false witness against me, Foreigner - are you prepared to answer to God for this sin?
 

Mungo

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The RCC is full of CLAIMS unsubstantiated by history, the Holy Scriptures or the writings of early church saints.

Rather like your posts which are unsubstantiated by history, Holy Scripture or the writings of the early fathers.

Your posts also seem to ignore replies you are given.

"Our Lady gave St. Simon a scapular for the Carmelites with the following promise, saying : Receive, My beloved son, this habit of thy order: this shall be to thee and to all Carmelites a privilege, that whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire .... It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger, and a pledge of peace."


I answered this but you ignored my reply so I will give it you again.

On the Carmelite site I quoted from a Carmelite priest writing an article about the scapular says the following
The scapular is the most popular devotion in the Catholic Church, yet it is widely misunderstood. Our "knowledge" of this sacramental is a confusion of popular legends, papal forgeries, stolen stories, and "can you top this" approach to the Blessed Mother.
He is specifically disowning such legends as valid.

The Catholic Encyclopaedia says about this:
According to a pious tradition…… This tradition, however, appears in such a precise form for the first time in 1642 [which is 391 years after the supposed vision of Simon Stock.] ...it has now been sufficiently shown that this testimony cannot be supported by historical documents....

Another important aspect of wearing the Scapular is the Sabbatine Privilege. This concerns a promise made by Our Lady to Pope John XXII. In a papal letter he issued, he recounted a vision that he had had. He stated that the Blessed Virgin had said to him in this vision, concerning those who wear the Brown Scapular: "I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in Purgatory, I shall free, so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting."

The Catholic Encyclopaedia has this to say about the Sabbetine Privilege:

The Sabbatine Privilege is derived from the apocryphal Bull Sacratissimo uti culmine of John XXII, March 3, 1322…….. Today it is universally regarded by scholars as inauthentic, even the "Monumenta histor. Carmel." of the Carmelite B. Zimmerman (I, Lérins, 1907, pp. 356-63) joining in rejecting it.

Again from the Carmelite site
Another significant problem regarding the authenticity of the Sabbatine Bull is that there is no record, much less copy, of this bull in the papal archives. While this would not guarantee 100% against the authenticity of a particular bull, combined with the other evidence it does indicate almost certain forgery. Carmelite historians have indeed determined that the bull is a fifteenth century forgery originating in Sicily.
Those statements were supported by:
Pope John XXII
Pope Pius XI
Pope Pius XII
Pope Paul VI
Pope Benedict XV
St. Alphonsus
St. Robert Bellarmine

Perhaps you agree with Aspen that these are "uneducated members" of the Catholic church?

You provide no evidence for your claim. Did they support forged claims or did they support the wearing of the brown scapula?
 

Foreigner

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"You provide no evidence for your claim. Did they support forged claims or did they support the wearing of the brown scapula?" - Mungo

-- They supported the forged claims. I provided proof, but feel free to Google or Bing and check for yourself.
 

Mungo

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Feel free to try & prove it if you want to. I've given the evidence that this stuff is apocryphal or forged.
 

Foreigner

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Mungo, I will try one last time to reason with you.
What I presented was correct.

You CAN see for yourself if you would look.
 

Mungo

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Mungo, I will try one last time to reason with you.
What I presented was correct.

You CAN see for yourself if you would look.

Foreigner,

You have never tried to reason. You just make unsupported claims. Those that can be investigated are shown to be wrong, though you take no notice.

As I said in the "Just heard about the rosary thread" I've lost interest in discussing anything with you.

It seems impossible to get a rational argument out of you backed up by any evidence.

All you want to do is scoff and give your opinions.
 

Brother James

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I see you have ignored my request; is that because there is no example of sola scriptura and sola fide in the Early Church?

While the words "sola scriptura" do not appear, it does seem that the noble Bereans practiced prima scriptura. They did so when there was no NT to consult, but they did not accept the words even of an apostle until they compared what he told them with the Scriptures.
 

Foreigner

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Foreigner,

You have never tried to reason. You just make unsupported claims. Those that can be investigated are shown to be wrong, though you take no notice.

As I said in the "Just heard about the rosary thread" I've lost interest in discussing anything with you.

It seems impossible to get a rational argument out of you backed up by any evidence.

All you want to do is scoff and give your opinions.

-- Mungo, I have provided specific in-context statements along with the link so you can see for yourself.

The last two sentences of your statement apply more to you than anyone else on this board.

If you have lost interest, then don't comment on anything I have said.

I will somehow deal with the hurt and pain, but will find a way to carry on.

I see you are continuing to bear false witness against me, Foreigner - are you prepared to answer to God for this sin?

-- lol quit with the drama queen routine.
I used your own words and showed where they imply certain popes and saints are "uneducated."
 

aspen

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-- lol quit with the drama queen routine.
I used your own words and showed where they imply certain popes and saints are "uneducated."

Right,....how could I forget - I only have two options with you - I am either whining or being a drama queen.

Whatever Foreigner.

You know what you are doing and you are obviously comfortable bearing false witness against me. It is your life to live and you sanctification so do what you will.
 

Foreigner

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Right,....how could I forget - I only have two options with you - I am either whining or being a drama queen.

Whatever Foreigner.

You know what you are doing and you are obviously comfortable bearing false witness against me. It is your life to live and you sanctification so do what you will.

-- Once again, I used your own words and showed where they imply certain popes and saints are "uneducated."

But after looking at your last two posts, it is hard to see where you aren't 'whining.'
 
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