WHY ARE MANY OF US STILL HERE?

[Phoneman777]

And there you are parsing the law again.

The Bible makes a CLEEEEEAR distinction between the Mosaic Law and the Moral Law God wrote on stone.

By what authority do you claim some laws must be kept, and others not?

The Word of God is that authority - and common sense, Holy Spirit discernment. Here's a little exercise for ya:

Is it a sin to not chop off foreskin as man was commanded in the Law of Moses?
No.
Is it a sin to chop off your neighbor's head as man was commanded not to in the Ten Commandments?
Yes
See? When you have Holy Spirit discernment, you'll be able to reason as easily as this.

There's no changing up and down here, I'm simply asking you to show me in the Bible where we can divide the law into the parts you do, and the parts you don't. Especially considering James declares the Law to be a single unit. Break one, you've broken the covenant.Much love!
Mark

Please, even today when you hear on the news "that law was abolished", do you not readily understand that the reference is of a specific law and not all laws?

Why do you Antinomianists always make things difficult? Just pick the one or the other answer, please:

[ ] Christians are obligated to keep all Ten Commandments as evidence Jesus is enthroned on the heart.

[ ] Christians are to disregard the Ten Commandments as evidence Jesus is enthroned on the heart.

 

[farouk]

Yes, actually they did. They told the Gentile churches to "refrain from sexual immorality."

Well, exactly.

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, actually they did. They told the Gentile churches to "refrain from sexual immorality."

Well, technically you're right...but they certainly didn't have to tell them not to kill each other, or not to worship Satan, or not to engage in idolatry, right? My point is that such things weren't necessary because some things just go without saying.

When Christians first suggested circumcision was no longer necessary, it caused such a uproar throughout the land that drastic measures had to be taken to quell it.

Circumcision

Yet, when it comes to the Sabbath which God wrote with His own finger in stone, modern day Christians want us to believe that absolutely no one had a single problem with "changing" that day to the day of the Sun god. The idea is so ludicrous that it just boggles the mind how anyone can suggest such a thing.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Well, technically you're right...but they certainly didn't have to tell them not to kill each other, or not to worship Satan, or not to engage in idolatry, right? My point is that such things weren't necessary because some things just go without saying.

Actually, the Jerusalem Council almost certainly did that too (although not the murdering part--that goes back to Noah and Cain/Abel. The Gentiles generally observed the prohibition against murder even in pagan Rome). The ruling against eating meat sacrificed to idols and to refrain from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals was getting at the idolatry that the Gentiles had formerly been known to have practiced. Where would one go to get meat sacrificed to idols? The pagan temples. Consuming blood is even today associated with evil rituals as was eating the meat of strangled animals (don't ask). They very likely didn't want the new converts to be anywhere near the pagan temples or engage in any kind of former rituals, for fear that they would get dragged back into their formerly pagan ways.

When Christians first suggested circumcision was no longer necessary, it caused such a uproar throughout the land that drastic measures had to be taken to quell it.

Actually, it was the Apostle Paul who was something of a crusader on the subject of doing away with circumcision for the Gentiles. He makes an amusing comment, in that regard, in Galatians 5:12.

 

[farouk]

Actually, the Jerusalem Council almost certainly did that too (although not the murdering part--that goes back to Noah and Cain/Abel. The Gentiles generally observed the prohibition against murder even in pagan Rome). The ruling against eating meat sacrificed to idols and to refrain from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals was getting at the idolatry that the Gentiles had formerly been known to have practiced. Where would one go to get meat sacrificed to idols? The pagan temples. Consuming blood is even today associated with evil rituals as was eating the meat of strangled animals (don't ask). They very likely didn't want the new converts to be anywhere near the pagan temples or engage in any kind of former rituals, for fear that they would get dragged back into their formerly pagan ways.




Actually, it was the Apostle Paul who was something of a crusader on the subject of doing away with circumcision for the Gentiles. He actually makes an amusing comment, in that regard, in Galatians 5:12.

Peter's vision in Acts is relevant with regard to foods no longer to be seen as unclean.

 

[farouk]

Why such an angry tone, Phoneman? There is no need, I wasn't arguing with you. But, you should realize that there was unlikely to be rigid Sabbath observance because the Gentile churches were not told to do Sabbath observance in the short list of instructions given by the Jerusalem Council (see Acts 15:28-29).

The rest principle in Creation exists, but this is very different from the ceremonial Jewish Sabbath. Such a lot was changed by the fact that the Lord Jesus rose again in fulfilment of the Feast of Firstfruits.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Peter's vision in Acts is relevant with regard to foods no longer to be seen as unclean.

Yes--Paul reaffirms that it isn't that meat sacrificed to animals was anything to be concerned about but, at the same time, he also was concerned about the formerly pagan Gentiles hanging around the pagan temples. In the days of the Roman Empire, the pagan temples were centers of commerce and Christians often got themselves into trouble by refusing to observe pagan ways. That was the basis of some of the pagans accusations against Christians that they were "irreligious". It was mostly about money. The temples made a lot of money off of selling idols, meat sacrificed to idols, temple prostitution, etc.

 

[farouk]

Yes--Paul reaffirms that it isn't that meat sacrificed to animals was anything to be concerned about but, at the same time, he also was concerned about the formerly pagan Gentiles hanging around the pagan temples. In the days of the Roman Empire, the pagan temples were centers of commerce and Christians often got themselves into trouble by refusing to observe pagan ways. That was the basis of some of the pagans accusations against Christians that they were "irreligious". It was mostly about money. The temples made a lot of money off of selling idols, meat sacrificed to idols, temple prostitution, etc.

In everything, care and moderation.

 

[farouk]

Why such an angry tone, Phoneman? There is no need, I wasn't arguing with you. But, you should realize that there was unlikely to be rigid Sabbath observance because the Gentile churches were not told to do Sabbath observance in the short list of instructions given by the Jerusalem Council (see Acts 15:28-29).

Remember also that what to some ppl is angry and harsh, to others is par of the course in day to day discourse. (I have lived outside North America... .)

I do take you point about the need for civil discourse, yes.

 

[brakelite]

If I tell anyone they have to literally obseve the day Saturday as Sabbath, then I’ve broken every command you’ve listed above. How can you know God and not see this?

Didn't James say that if we break one of the commandments, then we have broken the whole law? So how is ignoring one of the commandments not doing likewise? How does observing the 4th commandment negatively affect the others?

 

[Waiting on him]

Didn't James say that if we break one of the commandments, then we have broken the whole law? So how is ignoring one of the commandments not doing likewise? How does observing the 4th commandment negatively affect the others?

If I observe everyday as Sabbath is that breaking the law?

 

[brakelite]

If I observe everyday as Sabbath is that breaking the law?

Is laziness breaking the law? Or perhaps you are so wealthy you have servants to do all the work? Or perhps you are physically handicapped and unable to get out of bed?
God's law, say keep one day holy...because that one day is already holy. God's law says in order to keep it holy we are to refrain from labour on that day, except in certain circumstances as Jesus explained, when doing good for someone or some animal. Of course, you can stop work altogether if you like, but Paul rebuked those who tried that and told them they weren't to eat. So, your choice.

 

[Waiting on him]

Is laziness breaking the law? Or perhaps you are so wealthy you have servants to do all the work? Or perhps you are physically handicapped and unable to get out of bed?
God's law, say keep one day holy...because that one day is already holy. God's law says in order to keep it holy we are to refrain from labour on that day, except in certain circumstances as Jesus explained, when doing good for someone or some animal. Of course, you can stop work altogether if you like, but Paul rebuked those who tried that and told them they weren't to eat. So, your choice.

Refrain from works thanks I’ll take your advice.

 

[brakelite]

Deuteronomy 5:11
[11] Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain(flesh): for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain(flesh).

We take His name in Spirit. We do not curse(flesh) but are of a life giving Spirit(blessing).

“disrespecting parents” then how do you reconcile Luke 12:51-53 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: [52] For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. [53] The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 14:26
[26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

the law is Spirit and established by Spirit in Honour of the Father which is God and thy mother which is our home. Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (In that Jerusalem her laws, the laws of the land, ARE Spirit.)

The law is Spiritual!

As to why anyone would want to be under bondage or take some one with them

2 Corinthians 3:6
[6] Who also hath made us able (born of God)ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

But some choose murder

“I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:”...Paul said. By the ministration of death.

Just from the above tenor of the conversation, so because I, among others, advocate obedience to God's commandments, I am suddenly a murderer and am persecuting the church.

Even with that in mind . . .

But yes, I think that's what this kind of thinking is about. Those who think they keep the law rely on themselves, that's my take. And those who try to bring others into the bondage of Law are trying to notch their belts. At least that's the way Paul looked at it.

And so you also are a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart?

I can't imagine a more detailed explanation of how we're not under the Law. Well, except for Romans, and Colossians, and 1 John, and . . .

Indeed. A pity you don't read them. Perhaps if you revised somewhat your study you may notice that those who were under the law were not the ones who were obeying it, but were the sinners...the disobedient...the murderers and liars etc.

So? It is clear from the text of Revelation that there will be a new kind of evil operating. I can guess, but I'd only be guessing that it will be something not yet seen in the way of evil. Probably has something to do with the Mark of the Beast.

Now that is a thoughtful post. Evil shall be considered good, and good evil. Yes, as can be seen from the quotes above. A preacher of righteousness in todays church environment is attacked as one who is seeking to bring the church into bondage. Any recommendation of Obedience to God is now considered persecution. "Woe unto them that call light for darkness, and darkness for light".
Any challenge to obedience now is met with the auto default self-defense mechanism that defies God's laws as being burdensome, and thus the Lawmaker as being a despot.

 

[brakelite]

Refrain from works thanks I’ll take your advice.

What? You can't even engage in a normal conversation without turning the meaning of expressions upside down to suit your opinion?

 

[brakelite]

Refrain from works thanks I’ll take your advice.

Do you really believe that when God said, "in it thou shalt not do any work", He was saying to them by not working you will "work your way into heaven"? Was Israel saved by obedience, or by grace? If they were saved as we are, by grace through faith, then why did God bother to give them His law if it were so meaningless? Think about your answer seriously instead of some flippant repartee.

 

[Waiting on him]

Just from the above tenor of the conversation, so because I, among others, advocate obedience to God's commandments, I am suddenly a murderer and am persecuting the church.


And so you also are a discerner of the thoughts and the intents of the heart?

Indeed. A pity you don't read them. Perhaps if you revised somewhat your study you may notice that those who were under the law were not the ones who were obeying it, but were the sinners...the disobedient...the murderers and liars etc.

Now that is a thoughtful post. Evil shall be considered good, and good evil. Yes, as can be seen from the quotes above. A preacher of righteousness in todays church environment is attacked as one who is seeking to bring the church into bondage. Any recommendation of Obedience to God is now considered persecution. "Woe unto them that call light for darkness, and darkness for light".
Any challenge to obedience now is met with the auto default self-defense mechanism that defies God's laws as being burdensome, and thus the Lawmaker as being a despot.

The letter killeth. We don’t want to be that messenger. Refrain from works, unless as you said to love your fellow man

 

[brakelite]

Refrain from works, unless as you said to love your fellow man

We hear a lot about love. It has become the mantra of the antinomian. As if love somehow replaces the law. Such a concept could not be further from the truth. If you truly love...as Christ loved...then you will fulfill every law ever written by the finger of God. Conversely...if you are not fulfilling every law written by the finger of God, then you need to question whether you are truly loving.
You mentioned above that the law is spiritual. Tell us all if you please. If a person keeps the law spiritually, that is, he doesn't lust after anyone or look upon anyone in any way that even smacks of desire, and then lies with his neighbours wife , is he obeying the law? I think you need to reassess your perspective on what Paul was really saying when he was saying "the letter killeth".

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Now that is a thoughtful post. Evil shall be considered good, and good evil. Yes, as can be seen from the quotes above. A preacher of righteousness in today's church environment is attacked as one who is seeking to bring the church into bondage. Any recommendation of Obedience to God is now considered persecution. 'Woe unto them that call light for darkness, and darkness for light'.
Any challenge to obedience now is met with the auto default self-defense mechanism that defies God's laws as being burdensome, and thus the Lawmaker as being a despot.

Sadly true. Here's a link to a video that is a compilation of the preaching of five different pastors on the subject of holiness--very moving (only takes 10 minutes to watch--well worth the time). They are, in order, the late David Wilkerson of Times Square Church who used to weep and agonize from the pulpit over the lukewarm state of Christians in this time. 2) Keith Daniel 3) Carter Conlon who took over Times Square Church after Wilkerson died. 4) a young Jim Cymbala--sorry about the recording quality on Cymbala--it used to be okay. 5) the great Leonard Ravenhill. Not mere teachers, these men could really preach!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

God's law, say keep one day holy...because that one day is already holy. God's law says in order to keep it holy we are to refrain from labour on that day, except in certain circumstances as Jesus explained, when doing good for someone or some animal. Of course, you can stop work altogether if you like, but Paul rebuked those who tried that and told them they weren't to eat. So, your choice.

What do you tell someone who doesn’t keep that one day holy? What happens? What should they do if they break keeping that one day holy?

Can you please quote the passage where Paul rebuked them for stopping work and told them to eat? I’m not familiar with it?