WHY ARE MANY OF US STILL HERE?

[Lady Crosstalk]

PS: @Lady Crosstalk Did you mean 1 Thessalonians 5.23?

Yes, it is late and I am very tired. Sorry.

 

[farouk]

Yes, it is late and I am very tired. Sorry.

No prob.! I thought it was what you really meant.

 

[brakelite]

Interesting summaries!

Today, fashionable politicians seem to have replaced the quest for truth with the idea of what supposedly feels good, backed up with the vested interest of what they can control.

The same could be said for many preachers and theologians.

 

[amadeus]

The Bride of Christ has never really developed a sound pneumatology (the study of the Holy Spirit) in its 2,000 year history. Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that Jewish-Christians were systematically excluded from fellowship in the early Church. It is probably because they were not trusted (it took a bit of convincing by God Himself, before the disciples trusted Saul/Paul).

In the Hebraic understanding, the "Breath of God" (Ruach Elohim) seems to have a distinct meaning apart from the "breath of life" (nishmat chayyim). It is important to recognize that, in Hebrew, the context is extremely important to interpretation. In Genesis we are told that "all who had the breath of life in their nostrils" (I guess that means all the higher order animals as well as mankind) perished in the Flood. Here the Hebrew for "breath of life" is nishmat ruach chayyim. This compound of words, to my mind, signifies that all animals who have breath in their nostrils along with humans have souls (nephesh in Hebrew) but, animals are never said to have spirits.

The spirits of humans DIED through the sin of their ancestors, Adam and Eve. They are revived in us when we are "born again" from above. The immortality of the spirit of a human is an astounding gift--and it is only granted to those who are found in Him. The Bible implies that we are, since the Fall, born like animals--having a soul and a body but being spiritually dead, until believing in Jesus the Christ "quickens" our dead spirits. Further, Christ keeps them alive by the power of His indwelling Holy Spirit. Peter flat out says as much in 2 Peter 2:12 in speaking of false teachers (presumably false believers as well): "But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed..." Having lost the protection of innocence, these types of people are easy prey for the enemy of their souls.

The Holy Spirit (Ruach ha Kodesh) is much more familiar to us because its indwelling presence is mentioned over and over in the New Testament. What I find very intriguing is this passage: "Then He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'." (John 20:22) Comments?

I am not good at following all of the Hebrew but I do see a difference between the interaction of the Holy Spirit with men prior to the pouring out as per Acts chapter 2. I would say that John 20:22 goes along with the Holy Spirit as seen throughout the OT.

Perhaps this all relates to the beasts (or our beast nature) in us. Somehow looking back at Noah's animals we see that in addition to the 8 people, both clean and unclean beasts were saved from the flood. In the natural we see a saving of what we might call lower animals, but spiritual it is opening the way for people with their beasts/beast natures to come back to God... back to the place they were prior to eating from the wrong tree and then again to an even better place of having eaten of the Tree of Life which Adam and Eve missed.

If it were possible to sort all this out, then maybe we would understand as God does... but when is that likely to happen?

"And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will." Dan 5:21

"Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish." Psalm 49:12

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" II Peter 2:12

"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves" Jude 10

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." Ecc 3:19

"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee." Psalm 73:22

But then...

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

When we have cleaned ourselves up or been cleaned up, we may move or be moved to a higher level in Noah's ark, from unclean to clean beasts, but still beasts. But when and if we have completely killed even the clean beasts of us, we would be at the very top...

With the Holy Spirit working as it did in the OT or even as per John 20:22 [prior to outpouring] would it be even possibility to kill all of our beasts so we would really be in the image of God as were Adam and Eve prior to their disobedience?

When all of the beasts are dead then we either have nothing, or we have real Life, the Life which Jesus is. Someone who has attained to that real Life but failed to kill all of the beasts instead reverting back to his old way, consuming his own vomit or looking back and becoming a dead pillar of salt would have died the second time or...? He would truly be dead with no more opportunity for Life.

 

[farouk]

Yes, it is late and I am very tired.

Hoping you had a really good rest; glad to see you back in order to contribute more.

 

[mjrhealth]

A relationship with God is built on a heart to heart understanding, not on precept upon precept, line upon line. What is being described is the failure of the teachers of to teach Israel the word

Actually it is, that is exactly how God teaches, one bit at a time, than when you get it He moves on, and it it takes 10 years for you to get it well than that is as long as it takes, there are some thing with God that if you dont get the first bit you will never understand the rest.

 

[farouk]

The same could be said for many preachers and theologians.

Unfortunately so. Good to stick with the Word.

 

[CoreIssue]

Unfortunately so. Good to stick with the Word.

Itching ears with tongues that draw near but hearts that are far away.

Just look at the denominational doctrines. What they proclaim to believe is nothing like how they endorse and teach for the sake of membership.

The churches of revelation are here.

 

[farouk]

Itching ears with tongues that draw near but hearts that are far away.

Just look at the denominational doctrines. What they proclaim to believe is nothing like how they endorse and teach for the sake of membership.

The churches of revelation are here.

Good point. I don't know why some churches bother to claim that they believe certain things, when they have already decided not to believe and practise them.

 

[Jay Ross]

Actually it is, that is exactly how God teaches, one bit at a time, than when you get it He moves on, and it it takes 10 years for you to get it well than that is as long as it takes, there are some thing with God that if you dont get the first bit you will never understand the rest.

Did you take the time to read and reflect on the two chapters. God was not impressed with their line upon line approach at all.

 

[mjrhealth]

Did you take the time to read and reflect on the two chapters. God was not impressed with their line upon line approach at all.

Well its how God teaches.... God has never being or will ever be impressed with men

 

[Jay Ross]

Well its how God teaches.... God has never being or will ever be impressed with men

Well then please back up your claim with the scriptures to support your case. Isaiah 28-29 is certainly pouring cold water on this conclusion of yours.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well then please back up your claim with the scriptures to support your case. Isaiah 28-29 is certainly pouring cold water on this conclusion of yours.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

but than I guess you have never being taught by God

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

But God cant help it that men dont believe and limit Him so.

 

[Jay Ross]

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

but than I guess you have never being taught by God

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

But God cant help it that men dont believe and limit Him so.

So, you question whether or not I have ever been taught by God?

I do understand what God was telling Jerusalem in these two chapters and particularly in the following five verses.

Isaiah 28:11-15: -

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.

14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."
​

Their line upon line, precept upon precept was going to cause them to become ensnared and caught in death.

 

[mjrhealth]

So, you question whether or not I have ever been taught by God?

I do understand what God was telling Jerusalem in these two chapters and particularly in the following five verses.

Isaiah 28:11-15: -

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.

14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."
​

Their line upon line, precept upon precept was going to cause them to become ensnared and caught in death.

And yet that is how God teaches men, one bit at a time till we get it, than He move on to the next, but mankind is apparently smarter than God, read the bible than tell God how it should be..

they just didnt get it like most christians.

 

[Jay Ross]

And yet that is how God teaches men, one bit at a time till we get it, than He move on to the next, but mankind is apparently smarter than God, read the bible than tell God how it should be..

they just didnt get it like most christians.

But where in scripture does it say just that?

At the moment you are expressing an opinion, yet Isaiah 28-29 condemned Israel for learning their understanding precept upon precept, line upon line.

The same can also be true for Christians if they are not careful.

They too will fall backwards and become snared and caught. Not a place I would want to be in either.

 

[mjrhealth]

But where in scripture does it say just that?

At the moment you are expressing an opinion, yet Isaiah 28-29 condemned Israel for learning their understanding precept upon precept, line upon line.

The same can also be true for Christians if they are not careful.

They too will fall backwards and become snared and caught. Not a place I would want to be in either.

It is no opinion, remember when God called Moses up into the mountain to talk to Him, and the Israelites Got impatient and couldnt wait for Moses to come back with Gods words to speak to them, and so they built them selves a golden calf to worship... well most christians have one and place it in a higher place even before God, its that book the bible, that men fight over argue over dispute and even demand God bow down to.. Well its not my God, God is..

Precept upon Precept line upon lien He teaches, wheter you believe it or not. Bit by bit..

 

[Jay Ross]

It is no opinion, remember when God called Moses up into the mountain to talk to Him, and the Israelites Got impatient and couldnt wait for Moses to come back with Gods words to speak to them, and so they built them selves a golden calf to worship... well most christians have one and place it in a higher place even before God, its that book the bible, that men fight over argue over dispute and even demand God bow down to.. Well its not my God, God is..

Precept upon Precept line upon lien He teaches, wheter you believe it or not. Bit by bit..

People do not fight over the bible as you are suggesting. The are fighting over their intellectual understanding prowess. Not over their relationship with God. The honesty of their relationship with God is what sets them apart.

 

[bbyrd009]

It is no opinion, remember when God called Moses up into the mountain to talk to Him, and the Israelites Got impatient and couldnt wait for Moses to come back with Gods words to speak to them, and so they built them selves a golden calf to worship... well most christians have one and place it in a higher place even before God, its that book the bible, that men fight over argue over dispute and even demand God bow down to.. Well its not my God, God is..

Precept upon Precept line upon lien He teaches, wheter you believe it or not. Bit by bit..

so, Deny, Deflect, Reiterate, your standard model I guess huh. No actual discussion of an important concept that might be misunderstood, at all. Ok.

So then I have some precepts and some lines that we might discuss, mjr. Only experience tells me that you will not be able to see them. either. You have been given a lot of rope here up til now mjr, roaring around calling everyone a hypocrite...

Is there anyone here who has not been called a hypocrite by mjr yet? How bout we find out?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Unfortunately so. Good to stick with the Word.

And it is good to read and study the WHOLE Bible (even though the New Testament has extra value for the Church because it teaches us how to be Christians). I was appalled when I heard that mega church pastor, Andy Stanley said that he thought that Christians should just ignore the OT! How could a son of Pastor Charles Stanley take such a ridiculous position?! Of course, the younger Stanley has been unorthodox for years now. The OT has many object lessons on how NOT to be a believer and what it meant to have true faith.