bbyrd009
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ya, "don't be too anxious for the you that you have constructed" imo...been tweaking that one, guess it's ready now
WHY ARE MANY OF US STILL HERE?
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bbyrd009
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Do I? So then that makes me also a man still needing God's continuing work.
I do not believe you understood my position at all. I do believe that Adam and Eve died immediately. They were already dead when they tried to hide from God after they had disobeyed. From that point to this I believe that every man born to woman except of course Jesus has been dead. Some of them have received Life.
You say that all mankind will be judged at the end of what you call the "age of ages", but that leaves me with a double jeopardy situation, doesn't it? Why judge again a condemned or dead man? It would seem that a new judgment would only needful or appropriate if a man had been redeemed from the death or condemnation and then according to what he has done with this "born from above" ["born again"] opportunity he could and/or would be judged.
No problem with these last words of yours for you, but you have made a choice away from the death and condemnation into which you were born... Not everyone has done or will do that. For it simply 'eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die'. That is not death as God sees it. That is simply the end of the flesh which man does call "death".
Yes, it should be remembered that the Sophists could "prove" any number of absurd claims using "logic". In that game, whoever controls the "facts" controls the outcome of the inquiry. The dissidents in Soviet Russia were sent to Lefortovo prison, after trial, "for crimes against the state". The prosecutors at those trials were armed with "facts" established by the KGB. If the KGB decided they wanted someone in jail, they manufactured "evidence" against them. They controlled the "facts," in other words, but those "facts" did NOT lead to Truth. Satan is the "father of lies" and a "murderer from the beginning". He opposes Truth and is ingenious at inspiring humans to sophisticated lies.
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We all have God's spirit for life in us when we are born, but because of the fall we now do not have a righteous relationship with God until we repent of our sins after being drawn into the Love of God. Now if you are saying that not having a righteous relationship with God means that we are already dead, then why does Jesus speak of fearing Him Who can destroy a person's soul, and not he who can take our physical life?
God did not stop entering into a righteous relationship with mankind because of the fall. God had regard for Abel's sacrifice but not for Cain's sacrifice and when Cain became angry at this God offered up counsel to Cain that would have helped him to enter into a right relationship with God if Cain had chosen, with the help of the Lord to restore his relationship with God.
After the birth of Seth's son, Enosh, men began to call upon the name of God.
When Enoch had lived 65 years, after the birth of Methuselah, began to walk with the Lord. After 300 years he was no more because God took Him.
Noah walked with God and was considered to be righteous before the Lord because God chose to save him and his immediate family from dying in the flood.
The level of information concerning these relationships with God does not allow us the ability to make calls on the levels of righteousness that they had with God. It is not our place to make judgement type calls on the righteousness of the ancient patriarchs before the flood.
After the Fall, God promised to put in place the means of reconciliation of mankind with Him which requires a choice to be made by mankind as to whether or not any one person of mankind will respond to the particular Love that God shows towards them. If mankind does not make this choice to enter into a righteous relationship with Him, then at the end of the ages, when all of mankind is resurrected for the Great White Throne Room Judgement for the records to be opened and their fate decided on what is written or not written in the Book of Life.
God does tell us that the fathers are not going to die the second death because of the sins of their children, not the children will die the second death for the sins of their fathers, but each will die because of the unrepentant sins that they cling to during their physical life before their breath leaves them.
Will I be judged righteous before God when it is my turn to stand before the throne and be judged? It is my desire to be righteous before God and to be repentant before God all the days of my life and that God will help me to renew my mind and to put on the refurbish me that God intended me to be since the beginning of time. It is my firm desire to believe and to trust the Lord all of the Days of my life, that the blood of the Cross will blot out all of my failings as I walk with the Lord, and that I have not cheated myself out of that relationship of walking with God.
Have I expressed myself well enough to convince others around me of my righteousness? Probably not. Does that matter? Probably not. What matters is what my relationship with God is and that I have a hearth after the heart of God.
Shalom
This is also why I an hesitant to endorse some of the insights of Reformed theology which - however appealing - is often based on a series of logical propositions rather than a direct, contextual, historical-grammatical interpretation of words and verses from Scripture itself.
I am tired from a very long day shopping with my wife on the 1st of the month between storms here in northern Oklahoma, but I do understand what you are saying. In a way perhaps we may be saying the same thing using different definitions for our words...
You referred to Jesus' words regarding fear for the One able to destroy our soul, but remember also that Jesus told one man, "Let the dead bury the dead".
Who is to be our interpreter so we can always communicate accurately?
Always there has still been the glimmer as per John 1:9... while when followed it can direct us to the Light, it can fall short of that real Light. Such is the place of a man of flesh prior to meeting and believing in Jesus. Abel pursued the glimmer for more while Cain turned away from even that glimmer into his own darkness that he would probably call light.
At best the OT people can be a type or shadow for us. What actually occurred between them and God may more difficult or even impossible for us understand as it is definitely where we really are.
Same response here. That was likely enough for God to fill in any gaps as needed, but without a revelation on it, how can we know? Why should we need to know? For us the types and shadows of their examples as written in scripture help explain our situation but do we really have a clue about their situation?
And was this the final and absolute end of their story, that is the story of Enoch and Noah? The flesh of Noah and his family was saved from drowning, but for them was there no more? How can we know more than what God has revealed to us? What has He revealed as it pertains to those men beyond their lives of flesh?
Precisely!
I understand what you are saying but still out of ignorance I remain silent on most of it. I could perhaps weave some web using even the scriptures but God has not shown me, so it is best for me to remain silent. If I need to know according to Him will He not open my eyes to see? What do I need to know beyond my very next step?
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28:9-10
OK, I accept that, but if we were/are dead before meeting the Master, what sins do dead men commit? If we have never repented at all or we have never been born from above [born again] at all ultimately is not our physical death meaningless?
The physical life was/is an opportunity to connect with God, but if we really did not, then do we not already have all of the reward or punishment to which we are entitled?
"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:2
Perhaps a question would help you understand part of my difficulty with some of your conclusion: When and where is this throne and this judgment? Perhaps each of us is already before that Throne undergoing judgment while we pass through our allotted time here. The judgment is being rendered according to what we have been doing, or not, with whatever God has provided or is providing.
Amen on your final sentence!
Interesting summaries!
Today, fashionable politicians seem to have replaced the quest for truth with the idea of what supposedly feels good, backed up with the vested interest of what they can control.
The Bride of Christ has never really developed a sound pneumatology (the study of the Holy Spirit) in its 2,000 year history. Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that Jewish-Christians were systematically excluded from fellowship in the early Church. It is probably because they were not trusted (it took a bit of convincing by God Himself, before the disciples trusted Saul/Paul).
In the Hebraic understanding, the "Breath of God" (Ruach Elohim) seems to have a distinct meaning apart from the "breath of life" (nishmat chayyim). It is important to recognize that, in Hebrew, the context is extremely important to interpretation. In Genesis we are told that "all who had the breath of life in their nostrils" (I guess that means all the higher order animals as well as mankind) perished in the Flood. Here the Hebrew for "breath of life" is nishmat ruach chayyim. This compound of words, to my mind, signifies that all animals who have breath in their nostrils along with humans have souls (nephesh in Hebrew) but, animals are never said to have spirits.
The spirits of humans DIED through the sin of their ancestors, Adam and Eve. They are revived in us when we are "born again" from above. The immortality of the spirit of a human is an astounding gift--and it is only granted to those who are found in Him. The Bible implies that we are, since the Fall, born like animals--having a soul and a body but being spiritually dead, until believing in Jesus the Christ "quickens" our dead spirits. Further, Christ keeps them alive by the power of His indwelling Holy Spirit. Peter flat out says as much in 2 Peter 2:12 in speaking of false teachers (presumably false believers as well): "But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed..." Having lost the protection of innocence, these types of people are easy prey for the enemy of their souls.
The Holy Spirit (Ruach ha Kodesh) is much more familiar to us because its indwelling presence is mentioned over and over in the New Testament. What I find very intriguing is this passage: "Then He breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'." (John 20:22) Comments?
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She's beaming proud I didn't turn out to be a special snowflake, safe-spacing inhabiting, SJW beta male.
Part 1
We should not use this passage as an example of the means to begin to understand God.
A relationship with God is built on a heart to heart understanding, not on precept upon precept, line upon line. What is being described is the failure of the teachers of to teach Israel the word of God.
This will require you to read the following two chapters. Consider the context of where the phrases Line upon line and Precept upon precept and the intent of these phrases.
God wants a relationship with mankind, not an intellectual understanding of what is required.
Here are the two chapters: -
Here is Isaiah 28 to read
Isaiah 28 : -- 29: – Woe to Ephraim and Jerusalem
28: 1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim,
Whose glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valleys,
To those who are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one,
Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm,
Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing,
Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim,
Will be trampled underfoot;
4 And the glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valley,
Like the first fruit before the summer,
Which an observer sees;
He eats it up while it is still in his hand.
5 In that day the Lord of hosts will be
For a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty
To the remnant of His people,
6 For a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
And for strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink;
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.
9 "Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.
28: 1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim,
Whose glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valleys,
To those who are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one,
Like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm,
Like a flood of mighty waters overflowing,
Who will bring them down to the earth with His hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim,
Will be trampled underfoot;
4 And the glorious beauty is a fading flower
Which is at the head of the verdant valley,
Like the first fruit before the summer,
Which an observer sees;
He eats it up while it is still in his hand.
5 In that day the Lord of hosts will be
For a crown of glory and a diadem of beauty
To the remnant of His people,
6 For a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
And for strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink;
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.
9 "Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.
14 Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves."
A Cornerstone in Zion
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation,
A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;
Whoever believes will not act hastily.
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line,
And righteousness the plummet;
The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
And the waters will overflow the hiding place.
18 Your covenant with death will be annulled,
And your agreement with Sheol will not stand;
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
Then you will be trampled down by it.
19 As often as it goes out it will take you;
For morning by morning, it will pass over,
And by day and by night;
It will be a terror just to understand the report."
20 For the bed is too short to stretch out on,
And the covering so narrow that one cannot wrap himself in it.
21 For the Lord will rise up as at Mount Perazim,
He will be angry as in the Valley of Gibeon —
That He may do His work, His awesome work,
And bring to pass His act, His unusual act.
22 Now therefore, do not be mockers,
Lest your bonds be made strong;
For I have heard from the Lord God of hosts,
A destruction determined even upon the whole earth.
A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;
Whoever believes will not act hastily.
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line,
And righteousness the plummet;
The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,
And the waters will overflow the hiding place.
18 Your covenant with death will be annulled,
And your agreement with Sheol will not stand;
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
Then you will be trampled down by it.
19 As often as it goes out it will take you;
For morning by morning, it will pass over,
And by day and by night;
It will be a terror just to understand the report."
20 For the bed is too short to stretch out on,
And the covering so narrow that one cannot wrap himself in it.
21 For the Lord will rise up as at Mount Perazim,
He will be angry as in the Valley of Gibeon —
That He may do His work, His awesome work,
And bring to pass His act, His unusual act.
22 Now therefore, do not be mockers,
Lest your bonds be made strong;
For I have heard from the Lord God of hosts,
A destruction determined even upon the whole earth.
Listen to the Teaching of God
23 Give ear and hear my voice,
Listen and hear my speech.
24 Does the plowman keep plowing all day to sow?
Does he keep turning his soil and breaking the clods?
25 When he has leveled its surface,
Does he not sow the black cummin
And scatter the cummin,
Plant the wheat in rows,
The barley in the appointed place,
And the spelt in its place?
26 For He instructs him in right judgment,
His God teaches him.
27 For the black cummin is not threshed with a threshing sledge,
Nor is a cartwheel rolled over the cummin;
But the black cummin is beaten out with a stick,
And the cummin with a rod.
28 Bread flour must be ground;
Therefore, he does not thresh it forever,
Break it with his cartwheel,
Or crush it with his horsemen.
29 This also comes from the Lord of hosts,
Who is wonderful in counsel and excellent in guidance.
Listen and hear my speech.
24 Does the plowman keep plowing all day to sow?
Does he keep turning his soil and breaking the clods?
25 When he has leveled its surface,
Does he not sow the black cummin
And scatter the cummin,
Plant the wheat in rows,
The barley in the appointed place,
And the spelt in its place?
26 For He instructs him in right judgment,
His God teaches him.
27 For the black cummin is not threshed with a threshing sledge,
Nor is a cartwheel rolled over the cummin;
But the black cummin is beaten out with a stick,
And the cummin with a rod.
28 Bread flour must be ground;
Therefore, he does not thresh it forever,
Break it with his cartwheel,
Or crush it with his horsemen.
29 This also comes from the Lord of hosts,
Who is wonderful in counsel and excellent in guidance.
See part 2: -
Part 2
We should not use this passage as an example of the means to begin to understand God.
A relationship with God is built on a heart to heart understanding, not on precept upon precept, line upon line. What is being described is the failure of the teachers of to teach Israel the word of God.
This will require you to read the following two chapters. Consider the context of where the phrases Line upon line and Precept upon precept and the intent of these phrases.
God wants a relationship with mankind, not an intellectual understanding of what is required.
Here are the two chapters: -
Here is Isaiah 29 to read
Isaiah 29 Woe to Jerusalem
29:1 "Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt!
Add year to year;
Let feasts come around.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel;
There shall be heaviness and sorrow,
And it shall be to Me as Ariel.
3 I will encamp against you all around,
I will lay siege against you with a mound,
And I will raise siegeworks against you.
4 You shall be brought down,
You shall speak out of the ground;
Your speech shall be low, out of the dust;
Your voice shall be like a medium's, out of the ground;
And your speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5 "Moreover the multitude of your foes
Shall be like fine dust,
And the multitude of the terrible ones
Like chaff that passes away;
Yes, it shall be in an instant, suddenly.
6 You will be punished by the Lord of hosts
With thunder and earthquake and great noise,
With storm and tempest
And the flame of devouring fire.
7 The multitude of all the nations who fight against Ariel,
Even all who fight against her and her fortress,
And distress her,
Shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when a hungry man dreams,
And look — he eats;
But he awakes, and his soul is still empty;
Or as when a thirsty man dreams,
And look — he drinks;
But he awakes, and indeed he is faint,
And his soul still craves:
So the multitude of all the nations shall be,
Who fight against Mount Zion."
Add year to year;
Let feasts come around.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel;
There shall be heaviness and sorrow,
And it shall be to Me as Ariel.
3 I will encamp against you all around,
I will lay siege against you with a mound,
And I will raise siegeworks against you.
4 You shall be brought down,
You shall speak out of the ground;
Your speech shall be low, out of the dust;
Your voice shall be like a medium's, out of the ground;
And your speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5 "Moreover the multitude of your foes
Shall be like fine dust,
And the multitude of the terrible ones
Like chaff that passes away;
Yes, it shall be in an instant, suddenly.
6 You will be punished by the Lord of hosts
With thunder and earthquake and great noise,
With storm and tempest
And the flame of devouring fire.
7 The multitude of all the nations who fight against Ariel,
Even all who fight against her and her fortress,
And distress her,
Shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when a hungry man dreams,
And look — he eats;
But he awakes, and his soul is still empty;
Or as when a thirsty man dreams,
And look — he drinks;
But he awakes, and indeed he is faint,
And his soul still craves:
So the multitude of all the nations shall be,
Who fight against Mount Zion."
The Blindness of Disobedience
9 Pause and wonder!
Blind yourselves and be blind!
They are drunk, but not with wine;
They stagger, but not with intoxicating drink.
10 For the Lord has poured out on you
The spirit of deep sleep,
And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets;
And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
Blind yourselves and be blind!
They are drunk, but not with wine;
They stagger, but not with intoxicating drink.
10 For the Lord has poured out on you
The spirit of deep sleep,
And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets;
And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please."
And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please."And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
And he says, "I am not literate."
13 Therefore the Lord said:
"Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
15 Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the Lord,
And their works are in the dark;
They say, "Who sees us?" and, "Who knows us?"
16 Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
"He did not make me"?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
"He has no understanding"?
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
15 Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the Lord,
And their works are in the dark;
They say, "Who sees us?" and, "Who knows us?"
16 Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
"He did not make me"?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
"He has no understanding"?
Future Recovery of Wisdom
17 Is it not yet a very little while
Till Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field,
And the fruitful field be esteemed as a forest?
18 In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book,
And the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.
19 The humble also shall increase their joy in the Lord,
And the poor among men shall rejoice
In the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nothing,
The scornful one is consumed,
And all who watch for iniquity are cut off —
21 Who make a man an offender by a word,
And lay a snare for him who reproves in the gate,
And turn aside the just by empty words.
Till Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field,
And the fruitful field be esteemed as a forest?
18 In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book,
And the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.
19 The humble also shall increase their joy in the Lord,
And the poor among men shall rejoice
In the Holy One of Israel.
20 For the terrible one is brought to nothing,
The scornful one is consumed,
And all who watch for iniquity are cut off —
21 Who make a man an offender by a word,
And lay a snare for him who reproves in the gate,
And turn aside the just by empty words.
22 Therefore thus says the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob:
"Jacob shall not now be ashamed,
Nor shall his face now grow pale;
23 But when he sees his children,
The work of My hands, in his midst,
They will hallow My name,
And hallow the Holy One of Jacob,
And fear the God of Israel.
24 These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding,
And those who complained will learn doctrine."
Nor shall his face now grow pale;
23 But when he sees his children,
The work of My hands, in his midst,
They will hallow My name,
And hallow the Holy One of Jacob,
And fear the God of Israel.
24 These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding,
And those who complained will learn doctrine."
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I was speak of the spirit of life and not the Holy Spirit. Your post was not reflective of what I had written.
I.e. God breathed his spirit of life into Adam and he lived.
Genesis 2:7: - 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath/spirit of life; and man became a living being.
H:5397 is breath, spirit etc.
A human when he/she is redeemed is comprised of body, soul and spirit fused with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Would you agree?
Arghh! Don't get me started on Reformed theology! It is often an un-biblical mess. How can they deny 1 Thessalonians 5:23 ???!!???
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Yes, sorry: 1 Thessalonians 5:23
Paul clearly implies that his readers were possessed of bodies, souls, and spirits. The ancient Greeks would use the word spirit (Greek pneuma) and soul (Greek psuche) interchangeably.
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