Why Christians Disagree

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Helen

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I would say that we need to have, or to be: gold, silver and/or precious stones which are purified rather than destroyed by the Fire. People want to call the fire, hell, but what if the fire is simply God. Who will remain untouched by the fire like the burning bush and who will be killed by the mere proximity to the intense heat of the flames like the soldiers who threw the 3 Hebrews into the furnace?

Yes...that is my definition of Hell too!!

1 Pet 1:7
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

As in the OT too ...Mal: 3:3
And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
 
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amadeus

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Yes...that is my definition of Hell too!!

1 Pet 1:7
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

As in the OT too ...Mal: 3:3
And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Give God the glory! Let us follow the example of the three Hebrews who walked with One like the Son of God rather than the example of the soldiers who cast them into the furnace and suffered the loss of all. Is God hell to those who deny Him?
 
B

brakelite

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@Taken That was a lot of information which purportedly dealt with the scripture we both quoted from Genesis 2:7, which you claimed to understand, repeated much of what I had already said, but then totally contradicted the scripture by saying man 'receives' a soul, that man 'has' a soul, and a spirit. Despite the verse specifically stating that man became a soul. Your 3 posts above started well, then became confusing and contradictory.
 

Harvest 1874

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I believe that what Jesus did at redemption , was for ALL man.
I believe all will be saved...and " every man in his own order".

You are correct my sister, Christ did not die simply for the Church (for believers alone), but for the whole world of mankind.

And He Himself is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins (the Church, believers), AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the RESURRECTION of judgement.” (John 5:28, 29)

If you have a correct understanding of the word “resurrection”, as well as a correct understanding of what the judgement will consist of, you would know that the judgement to come is to be a blessing and NOT a curse as is commonly taught by the nominal church. See our blog posts, “Understanding the Resurrection” and “Understanding the Judgement” for more on this.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe (NOW, during the “acceptable time”).” 1 Tim 4:10; 2 Cor 6:2

For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive.” (1 Cor 15:21, 22)

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one (having passed upon all), much more those who receive abundance of grace (the unmerited favor of God) and of the gift of righteousness (the “free gift”, justification to life, such) will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment (the sentence) came to ALL men (extensively), resulting in condemnation (death), even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to ALL men (co-extensively), resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many (ALL) were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many (ALL) will be made righteous.” (Rom 5:17-19)

A ransom for ALL”, what does this imply?

Some say that for a person to benefit from the ransom he must first recognize his sinful condition, and that likewise he must gain knowledge of the truth, and when he has accomplished this he then has a basis for exercising faith.

Is this true, is it required that one must first recognized his sinful condition prior to receiving the benefits of the ransom, that the individual must first exercise faith in the ransom in order to acquire its benefits?

In respects to the world of mankind which comes first, knowledge of the truth (specifically the knowledge of man’s true condition and need for a savior) or salvation? Note God’s answer as given in 1 Tim 2:3, 4

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires (1) all men to be saved and (2) to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Now if it be God’s will that ALL men should be saved first (from the Adamic curse), and then following this to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth then it is apparent that whether or not the individual firsts recognized his sinful condition has no effect upon whether or not he shall reap the benefits of the ransom (i.e. salvation).

Just as the original sentence (death) came upon ALL mankind irregardless to their own personal preferences (i.e. we were born in sin), so too the “free gift”, salvation from the Adamic curse, sentence (justification to life) comes to ALL mankind once again irregardless to their own preferences, it is the grace (the unmerited favor) of God.

Now with this in mind 1 Tim 2:3-6 should become all the more clear to us.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have (UNCONDITIONALLY) ALL MEN to be saved (from the original Adamic curse), and to come unto an accurate knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.”

Here is a salvation, which is clearly unconditional and depends alone on the will of God; it is NOT however an eternal salvation, merely a salvation or redemption from the original Adamic curse, which resides upon ALL.

The right to life provided by the ransom sacrifice of Christ once understood is obtainable only upon the basis of acceptance and obedience.

Now many will argue with this reasoning, but how soon they forget that when Adam was condemned (lost the right to life) so too his seed in him lost that right also. It is only because of Christ took the place of father Adam that there is any hope of life for us. We were bought with a price even the precious blood (life) of Christ, we no longer have any say in the matter, our lives were forfeited, and we are now the property of Christ. And if it be his will to save ALL men who are we to argue.

Heis the guarantee of our (the Churches) inheritance (as sons of God) until the redemption (deliverance) of the purchased possession (i.e. Mankind; the rights, privileges, life and kingdom originally given to Adam; and the earth itself; all that was lost.), to the praise of His glory.” (Eph 1:14)

Our Redeemer was in the world for the very purpose of redeeming mankind (ALL mankind), and all his forfeited rights and possessions. It is the purchaser's privilege to give life to any he so chooses, and it is his will (the Father’s will) to give life to ALL men.

Note: we are not Universalist, God having saved (redeemed) all men from the original curse which was upon Adam and his race does not guarantee everlasting life to any, he merely releases us from the original sentence, brought upon us by Adam’s sin. Eternal salvation will be determined upon the conclusion of the trial (a new trial) of each individual, the Church presently during this the Gospel Age as each prospective member of the body passes beyond the Vail of death, and the remainder of the world by the end of the Mediatorial reign at the end of the millennial age.

I will attempt to address the remainder of your comments in a future post.
 
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Harvest 1874

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Remember he is the J.W.

What the heck does that have to do with anything? A truth told by Satan himself would still be a truth.

As for being a JW, I have made my case as clear as I possibly can on multiple occasions and yet you still insist otherwise. It has become evident that your personal bias and bigotry has clouded your judgement.
 
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Helen

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What the heck does that have to do with anything? A truth told by Satan himself would still be a truth.

As for being a JW, I have made my case as clear as I possibly can on multiple occasions and yet you still insist otherwise. It has become evident that your personal bias and bigotry has clouded your judgement.

Haha! I was going to say that too...but you said it first. lol
 

CoreIssue

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What the heck does that have to do with anything? A truth told by Satan himself would still be a truth.

As for being a JW, I have made my case as clear as I possibly can on multiple occasions and yet you still insist otherwise. It has become evident that your personal bias and bigotry has clouded your judgement.

Nobody really knows your group, so is Russelite better? But so are JW.
 

Enoch111

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Is this true, is it required that one must first recognized his sinful condition prior to receiving the benefits of the ransom, that the individual must first exercise faith in the ransom in order to acquire its benefits?
That is exactly what the Bible teaches. Study the epistle to the Romans.

You claim you are not a Universalist, yet you promote Universalism, but dress it up in a way which has no basis is Scripture.
 

Taken

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@Taken That was a lot of information which purportedly dealt with the scripture we both quoted from Genesis 2:7, which you claimed to understand, repeated much of what I had already said, but then totally contradicted the scripture by saying man 'receives' a soul, that man 'has' a soul, and a spirit. Despite the verse specifically stating that man became a soul. Your 3 posts above started well, then became confusing and contradictory.

Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God "formed man" of the dust of the ground, and breathed "into" his nostrils the breath of life; and "man" became a living soul.

God "formed man" from dust.

What is a "formed man"?

Does the "man" exist?

AND the "man" became a Living soul.

What went "into" the "formed man"?

Taken
 

bbyrd009

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know. I just want evidence that nobody here seems to have.
dunno if this will help any, but if you change the way you look, that might help. Iow imo the God that you seek evidence for does not exist, and any absolute evidence that anyone provided would imo point to a false God also. Which is imo why The Wind is discussed in that context.
 
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Dave L

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27 When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.
KJV error again.
“When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48) (HCSB)

“When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.” (Acts 18:27) (NIV)
 

Harvest 1874

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That is exactly what the Bible teaches. Study the epistle to the Romans.

I believe the Lord makes it quite clear in (1 Tim 2:3, 4) when he states, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who (1) desires all men to be saved and (2) to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

However I must admit part of the problem is not making the proper distinction between the "age of faith" the present age, the Gospel age where knowledge precedes faith, (Rom 10:14, 17), and the next age, the Millennial age, when following their awakening from the grave mankind will be brought to the knowledge of the truth that they might then believe and live.

You claim you are not a Universalist, yet you promote Universalism, but dress it up in a way which has no basis is Scripture.

And you claim you are not a Calvinist and yet you promote Calvinist doctrine.

We are not Universalist, see our blog post, "Which is the true Gospel?" beginning at Part 5.
 

Harvest 1874

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Nobody really knows your group, so is Russelite better? But so are JW.

No, we are not Russellites, we are Bible Students plain and simple. We follow the Lord and his truth, not any man. Would you have us thenceforth on this forum refer to you as a Calvinist?

I mean both you and our friend Enoch111 promote the Calvinist doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin, so you must be a Calvinists right?
 

CoreIssue

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“When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48) (HCSB)

“When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers and sisters encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. When he arrived, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.” (Acts 18:27) (NIV)

Believing by grace does not mean calvinist. All who love Christ are appointed to eternal life per roman 8.
 
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Dave L

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Believing by grace does not mean calvinist. All who love Christ are appointed to eternal life per roman 8.
It is why some are appointed to eternal life and others are not. We need to answer this truthfully not base on what we would do if we were God.
 

CoreIssue

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It is why some are appointed to eternal life and others are not. We need to answer this truthfully not base on what we would do if we were God.

No where does the bible saying that appointed some to hell.

You never include freewill in your statements except to deny it.
 
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CoreIssue

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No, we are not Russellites, we are Bible Students plain and simple. We follow the Lord and his truth, not any man. Would you have us thenceforth on this forum refer to you as a Calvinist?

I mean both you and our friend Enoch111 promote the Calvinist doctrine of eternal torment as the wages of sin, so you must be a Calvinists right?

You follow the teachings of Russel.

Enoch111 and I both condemn the teachings of calvinism.