Why Christians Disagree

[Stranger]

And I am not asking for prof. I understand the gospel so you have done your duty.

If that is enough for you then great. I wonder if you have ever believed something and then found out it was not true.

You have been asking for evidence and proof throughout this thread.

I have believed in God and Christ because He is true. Faith in God and Christ is not comparable to your faith that there is no God. It is not comparable to the scientist's faith who claims there is no God because he can't prove it. The Christians faith is a miraculous thing.

The Christian has believed in God and Christ and knows it is true. And the longer they live, the more assurance they are given that these things are true.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

No. Asking for evidence is not demanding anything. If you don't have any more as you have said then I will stop asking you. And no, I do not require or am I asking for proof.

I never said you did not provide evidence. I have said that the evidence you provided is not sufficient for belief in my opinion.

And there is the crux of the problem. Not us, you.

The evidence...is that we have eternally more because it is sufficient.[/QUOTE]Not everyone evaluates evidence the same. As I said before that is why we have hung juries. It is great if you have decided there is enough evidence. I simply have not decided it is sufficient. We don't decide to believe something either we do or we don't. Can't I blame you for not believing in Allah? Not believing in Allah is your problem.[/QUOTE]
The difference is, I do not "believe", but "know."

Still, what you consider sufficient evidence has obviously caused you to put up a wall between you and knowing the truth. Yet, it has no bearing on anything but you. The truth exists with or without you finding the evidence sufficient. It's your loss, and your doing.

 

[Willie T]

I found these various ways of understanding "evidence" interesting:
KJ21
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
ASV
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.
AMP
Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].
AMPC
Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
BRG
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
CSB
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
CEB
Faith is the reality of what we hope for, the proof of what we don’t see.
CJB
Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.
CEV
Faith makes us sure of what we hope for and gives us proof of what we cannot see.
DARBY
Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen.
DLNT
Now faith is the assurance of things being hoped-for, the conviction of things not being seen.
DRA
Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.
ERV
Faith is what makes real the things we hope for. It is proof of what we cannot see.
EHV
Faith is being sure about what we hope for, being convinced about things we do not see.
ESV
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
ESVUK
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
EXB
Faith means ·being sure [the assurance; or the tangible reality; or the sure foundation] of the things we hope for and ·knowing that something is real even if we do not see it [the conviction/assurance/evidence about things not seen].
GNV
1 He declareth in the whole Chapter, that the Fathers, which from the beginning of the world were approved of God, attained salvation no other way than by faith, that the Jews may know that by the same only, they are knit unto the Fathers in an holy union. Now faith is the grounds of things which are hoped for, and the evidence of things which are not seen.
GW
Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.
GNT
To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.
HCSB
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
ICB
Faith means being sure of the things we hope for. And faith means knowing that something is real even if we do not see it.
ISV
Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.
PHILLIPS
Now faith means putting our full confidence in the things we hope for, it means being certain of things we cannot see. It was this kind of faith that won their reputation for the saints of old. And it is after all only by faith that our minds accept as fact that the whole scheme of time and space was created by God’s command—that the world which we can see has come into being through principles which are invisible.

 

[Willie T]

KJV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
TLB
What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead.
MSG
The fundamental fact of existence is that this trust in God, this faith, is the firm foundation under everything that makes life worth living. It’s our handle on what we can’t see. The act of faith is what distinguished our ancestors, set them above the crowd.
MEV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
MOUNCE
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
NOG
Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.
NABRE
Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.
NASB
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
NCV
Faith means being sure of the things we hope for and knowing that something is real even if we do not see it.
NET
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.
NIRV
Faith is being sure of what we hope for. It is being sure of what we do not see.
NIV
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
NIVUK
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
NKJV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
NLV
Now faith is being sure we will get what we hope for. It is being sure of what we cannot see.
NLT
Faith shows the reality of what we hope for; it is the evidence of things we cannot see.
NMB
Faith is a sure confidence of things that are hoped for, and a certainty of things that are not seen.
NRSV
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
NRSVA
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
NRSVACE
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
NRSVCE
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
NTE
What then is faith? It is what gives assurance to our hopes; it is what gives us conviction about things we can’t see.
OJB
Now Emunah is the substance of things for which we have tikvah. Emunah is the conviction of things not seen.
TPT
Now faith brings our hopes into reality and becomes the foundation needed to acquire the things we long for. It is all the evidence required to prove what is still unseen.
RSV
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
RSVCE
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
TLV
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of realities not seen.
VOICE
Faith is the assurance of things you have hoped for, the absolute conviction that there are realities you’ve never seen.
WEB
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.
WE
If people believe God, then they know they have the things they hope to get. It is the proof of things we do not see.
WYC
But faith is the substance of things that be to be hoped, and an argument of things not appearing. [Forsooth faith is the substance of things to be hoped, an argument, or certainty, of things not appearing.]
YLT
And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

 

[ScottA]

I don't know if you don't understand or don't want to understand but there is evidence to believe in the things you say above. Yes, I believe things that I cannot know 100% are true, but I believe them because there is evidence for the belief. I have a lack of belief in Bigfoot, aliens Allah because there is insufficient evidence.

The point is...you are simply being selective with what you will and will not believed. You just said it, there are things you cannot know are 100% true, but you believe them. But when presented with evidence of the existence of God, you selectively decide it is not sufficient...even after it has been explained to you. So, you are not convinced. Fine. But then, that too has been explained.

So, you prove what I told you already: You are incapable of processing the evidence. That is completely different than it not being sufficient.

Example: someone could claim there is not sufficient evidence for quantum mechanics, simply because it is over their head and therefore they do not accept it, and will not take someone else's word for it, etc.. But things being over your head...is not a defense...it's evidence of individual inability.

That is the message you are parading here. As if to say, "You can't show me anything I can understand!" You may as well go to the math department of a major university and look for evidence of quantum mechanics, but not allow for a mathematical explanation...because you yourself consider it to be insufficient.

I say again: You are not the measure of what is sufficient evidence.

That is why you have gotten the reception you have. Go figure.

 

[Taken]

And again, no one can choose to believe or not believe something.

Disagree.

They can deny or say they believe something but in their minds they know whether they believe or not for real. How do you choose to believe in Bigfoot? You would always know in tour own mind that you don't believe it.

Do you choose to love....
or do you love Because?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

he doesn't want me to have sufficient evidence.

No, what you want is proof. You are making the choice as to what is"sufficient". Other people believe who have never seen the environment in which they live, never heard a bird chirping, and cannot ask the questions you are asking. Sufficient evidence is entirely subjective... What evidence are you actually looking for?

 

[Taken]

It is interesting that you can discount other god claims because of lack of evidence

No, that is not what occured.

You said, other gods claim they are the creater, and listed a handful of what you said were gods, who made those claims.

I have no facts that support "your claims".

but you cant understand why I don't believe yours?

I do understand.
You do not want to believe.
You have a blinded mind and hardened heart.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

Did you work with your Uncle, traveling through Arab nations and pick up bits and pieces of street preachers and turn that into a religion and then foster the notion that that religion must be accepted by all people of your nation?

I didn't.

Glory to God,
Taken

wow, that is def me, at least through a certain lens, yes. Religion is really the only term there I might have changed. Not that I meant to refer to myself anyway, but ty!

 

[Taken]

wow, that is def me, at least through a certain lens, yes. Religion is really the only term there I might have changed. Not that I meant to refer to myself anyway, but ty!

It seems you have something in common with;
Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe Ishmael''s God was The Supreme Heavenly God, and over a course of time by human manipulation a false god is being worshiped.

Glory to God,
Taken

hey, just like us huh!

It seems you have something in common with;
Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim

Glory to God,
Taken

hmm, I'm on an iPad so you'll have to enlighten me there, sorry. I was quite the patriot then and disdained to learn the language, and that or those names are not ringing any bells

 

[Taken]

hmm, I'm on an iPad so you'll have to enlighten me there, sorry. I was quite the patriot then and disdained to learn the language, and that or those names are not ringing any bells

That is the name of the Muslim prophet Mohammad.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

That is the name of the Muslim prophet Mohammad.

Glory to God,
Taken

ha well I am honored, but I srsly doubt it.
Many sources attest to his unending patience and unflappability, etc

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh, I just got it, duh. Yes, glory to God, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

I found these various ways of understanding "evidence" interesting:
KJ21
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
ASV
Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.
AMP
Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].
AMPC
Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
BRG
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
CSB
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
CEB
Faith is the reality of what we hope for, the proof of what we don’t see.
CJB
Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see.
CEV
Faith makes us sure of what we hope for and gives us proof of what we cannot see.
DARBY
Now faith is [the] substantiating of things hoped for, [the] conviction of things not seen.
DLNT
Now faith is the assurance of things being hoped-for, the conviction of things not being seen.
DRA
Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.
ERV
Faith is what makes real the things we hope for. It is proof of what we cannot see.
EHV
Faith is being sure about what we hope for, being convinced about things we do not see.
ESV
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
ESVUK
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
EXB
Faith means ·being sure [the assurance; or the tangible reality; or the sure foundation] of the things we hope for and ·knowing that something is real even if we do not see it [the conviction/assurance/evidence about things not seen].
GNV
1 He declareth in the whole Chapter, that the Fathers, which from the beginning of the world were approved of God, attained salvation no other way than by faith, that the Jews may know that by the same only, they are knit unto the Fathers in an holy union. Now faith is the grounds of things which are hoped for, and the evidence of things which are not seen.
GW
Faith assures us of things we expect and convinces us of the existence of things we cannot see.
GNT
To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see.
HCSB
Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
ICB
Faith means being sure of the things we hope for. And faith means knowing that something is real even if we do not see it.
ISV
Now faith is the assurance that what we hope for will come about and the certainty that what we cannot see exists.
PHILLIPS
Now faith means putting our full confidence in the things we hope for, it means being certain of things we cannot see. It was this kind of faith that won their reputation for the saints of old. And it is after all only by faith that our minds accept as fact that the whole scheme of time and space was created by God’s command—that the world which we can see has come into being through principles which are invisible.

i wonder if Paul didn't mean something much closer to the state of mind most ppl are in when they fly on a plane tbh; disregarding the outliers for the moment. Do we stay up all night reading a primer on the mechanics of an aircraft? Do we select a certain model of plane to fly on, agonize over which day to fly on over another a la buying a car made on Wednesday, or investigate the record of the likely pilot? Do we buy a ticket with the proviso that we want a refund if a replacement pilot is substituted at the last minute, like a baseball wager?

While of course there are exceptions likely for all of these, generally speaking why don't we do this?
I suggest that Paul's faith--and the Bible's faith--is much closer to the Scientific Method than we would like to contemplate, only no one cares bc of course that will not get anyone to the Elysian Fields I guess

 

[Taken]

ha well I am honored, but I srsly doubt it.
Many sources attest to his unending patience and unflappability, etc

I would presume dependence of an illiterate man in position of power, would tend to be patient....(and cautious.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Copperhead]

It really comes down to evidence that would stand up to sound jurisprudence in court. We make decisions each day on evidence that cannot be proven and base daily decisions on probabilities.

The problem with a "proof" standard is that the bar keeps changing. This is why many times, attorneys make some of the best theologians and expositors of scripture. John Warwick Montgomery is a class act in this regard. Dr. Mark Hitchcock and Dr. Andy Woods are a couple of former attorneys that have since obtained their respective doctorates in theology and are fantastic expositors of scripture. Dr. Woods has a great style that allows him to take the complex and break it down into its simplest form and explain it so the common man can understand it.

Of course, the biggest problem to anyone actually finding the truth is if they think they already have it.

 

[amadeus]

Non answer. Why not just answer the question?

Yes, Scientists use logic and reason to determine that logic and reason will lead us knowledge. However, science and reason has proven over and over again that it is a valid system to gain knowledge about our universe. Saying that god exists because I have faith in god is circular and not helpful. There is no way to verify the reasoning.

Which is why it seldom fruitful to seriously even discuss it. Where is our starting point?

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

For you it may appear to be starting with nothing and coming out with something. It is what it is as God is what He is. We really do have a testimony, but you are unable to appreciate it because you cannot move away from the starting gate.

 

[bbyrd009]

It really comes down to evidence that would stand up to sound jurisprudence in court. We make decisions each day on evidence that cannot be proven and base daily decisions on probabilities.

The problem with a "proof" standard is that the bar keeps changing. This is why many times, attorneys make some of the best theologians and expositors of scripture. John Warwick Montgomery is a class act in this regard. Dr. Mark Hitchcock and Dr. Andy Woods are a couple of former attorneys that have since obtained their respective doctorates in theology and are fantastic expositors of scripture. Dr. Woods has a great style that allows him to take the complex and break it down into its simplest form and explain it so the common man can understand it.

Of course, the biggest problem to anyone actually finding the truth is if they think they already have it.

you say "court" and I say "planes," the diff being imo authority decides v the ppl decide, for lack of a better way to put it right now, and fwiw I'm seeing interesting parallels in my convo with Taken here, too. Muhammad was in a position of "power" bc the ppl respected him for his deeds, I guess, iow he was not elected or appointed, he just "was."

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, Scientists use logic and reason to determine that logic and reason will lead us knowledge.

However scientists are also forced to evaluate that knowledge in the light of new information in a way that religion is not held to, generally speaking. And the exceptions teach an important lesson in dialectics imo, Cassini we have all heard of, even though he is now famous for being an idiot to those who know, I'll go fond the story and post it below. Similar comparisons can be made of Edison and Tesla, etc tho.