Why Christians Disagree

[Vince]

That was the answer I expected. According to you, "My Bible" doesn't exist, since the One we believe wrote it doesn't exist... in your estimation. Why would you, then, validate something by using a source that doesn't exist?... unless you also believe what it says.

You do realize you cannot take part of the Bible as a basis for anything, and also deny other selected parts.

Nope. You believe the bible to be true so when you use the term in the context you use it I assumed you were using it according to your beliefs.

 

[ScottA]

Ok, that's fine. If that is all the evidence you have then I am not convinced.

Are you not continually demanding evidence, that is to say "proof", by continually going on and on about that being your terms? Of course you are.[/quote]No. Asking for evidence is not demanding anything. If you don't have any more as you have said then I will stop asking you. And no, I do not require or am I asking for proof.

I never said you did not provide evidence. I have said that the evidence you provided is not sufficient for belief in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
And there is the crux of the problem. Not us, you.

The evidence...is that we have eternally more because it is sufficient.

 

[ScottA]

I don't use credit cards. However, there is ample evidence that companies exist and they provide a service. I am not sure what your point is about CC companies.

How about banks...do you use them?
How about driving...do you cross intersections?
How about...?
How about..?

You love, you trust, and you believe a ton. But you are not willing to offer the same to the creator of the universe, your maker.

You have a problem. It's you.

 

[bbyrd009]

Belief in no god is not the same as saying god does not exist.

hmm. Ok, but you would have to clarify that for me I guess, ty

If you had a cardboard box on a table and told me there was a watch inside without additional evidence my only conclusion about whether there is a watch or not is I don't know.

what if it was your mom told you that though, and not me? I dunno if I will be able to bring this out below, but I guess I'll try anyway...

Iow this would be true if you did not know me maybe, but imo is a bad premise anyway as "God" (the Unknown God, not the one you/we usually seek wadr) tells a seeker to "test Him and see." Now that is put in the context of "tithes in the storehouse," but I suggest that it reads diff in a Dialectic understanding anyway. Regardless imo the literal reading can be followed and tried, even by an Atheist, by which I don't mean start giving money to 501(6) c3(6)s, who collect via a form 1023(6). Define those elements for yourself iow, imo God will not care, as long as the spirit is adhered to, iow "storehouse" must be the same intent, completely public and accessible by any in need (would be my interp anyway,off the cuff at least) and etc.

There would be insufficient evidence to believe there is one in the box. That is different than saying there is no watch in the box. If you then showed me the box the watch came out of, I could hear the watch ticking, the box is ample size to have a watch inside then I would have sufficient evidence to believe even though I don't know for sure 100%. So lack of belief does not equal no god exists.

I have never asked for absolute proof only sufficient evidence. There is a lot of misconceptions as to how what I would say most atheists think.

Unfort we begin with a bad premise here, and a discussion about "the wind" would be more apropos, but regardless hopefully the illustration with your mother injected might serve to point out the...shortcoming in your box analogy?

See bc there is no "thing" to be gotten at here, no God such as we (all, I guess) seek to put in that box, irrespective of what any Believer might say. And let's be honest, I've yet to meet a believer who does not hope to query God someday, etc

 

[bbyrd009]

I have never asked for absolute proof only sufficient evidence.

Wadr I think you already knew how pointless that was before you came here, Vince.
I put that right up there with "Jesus is literally returning in the clouds," and this perspective is condemned in many places, many ways in Scripture

 

[Dave L]

I understand but people say this same thing about Allah? So why is the christian god the real one and Allah not? Malcom X had life transformation because he believed in Allah, non believers have inner transformation as well, so life transformation is insufficient evidence to believe a god exists.

According to scripture they do not have the same spirit. Even among Christendom many have the wrong spirit. If a person's conduct matches the Sermon on the Mount they have the Spirit of Christ who authored it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Vince I applaud that you have left the camp ok, but I wonder if you even know why I put it that way? Without looking iow?

 

[Vince]

Are you not continually demanding evidence, that is to say "proof", by continually going on and on about that being your terms? Of course you are.

No. Asking for evidence is not demanding anything. If you don't have any more as you have said then I will stop asking you. And no, I do not require or am I asking for proof.

I never said you did not provide evidence. I have said that the evidence you provided is not sufficient for belief in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
And there is the crux of the problem. Not us, you.

The evidence...is that we have eternally more because it is sufficient.[/QUOTE]Not everyone evaluates evidence the same. As I said before that is why we have hung juries. It is great if you have decided there is enough evidence. I simply have not decided it is sufficient. We don't decide to believe something either we do or we don't. Can't I blame you for not believing in Allah? Not believing in Allah is your problem.

 

[Vince]

How about banks...do you use them?
How about driving...do you cross intersections?
How about...?
How about..?

You love, you trust, and you believe a ton. But you are not willing to offer the same to the creator of the universe, your maker.

You have a problem. It's you.

I don't know if you don't understand or don't want to understand but there is evidence to believe in the things you say above. Yes, I believe things that I cannot know 100% are true, but I believe them because there is evidence for the belief. I have a lack of belief in Bigfoot, aliens Allah because there is insufficient evidence.

 

[Taken]

Allah claims this.

I believe Ishmael''s God was The Supreme Heavenly God, and over a course of time by human manipulation a false god is being worshiped.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Vince]

hmm. Ok, but you would have to clarify that for me I guess, ty

I probably did not word it very well. Lack of belief in a god is the same as saying I don't know, Saying there is no god is making a claim no one can back up with evidence.

what if it was your mom told you that though, and not me? I dunno if I will be able to bring this out below, but I guess I'll try anyway...

Maybe.

Iow this would be true if you did not know me maybe, but imo is a bad premise anyway as "God" (the Unknown God, not the one you/we usually seek wadr) tells a seeker to "test Him and see." Now that is put in the context of "tithes in the storehouse," but I suggest that it reads diff in a Dialectic understanding anyway. Regardless imo the literal reading can be followed and tried, even by an Atheist, by which I don't mean start giving money to 501(6) c3(6)s, who collect via a form 1023(6). Define those elements for yourself iow, imo God will not care, as long as the spirit is adhered to, iow "storehouse" must be the same intent, completely public and accessible by any in need (would be my interp anyway,off the cuff at least) and etc.

I did this for 18 years.

 

[Taken]

Of course, because I have sufficient evidence to believe I have these organs.

Yes thoughts come from your brain. That has been sufficiently shown by science. You change the brain you change the person. You cannot have thoughts without a brain. Science has shown that if you change the brain you can change how the person acts, thinks etc.

Not all of it. Some of it has been verified by archaeology some has been refuted by archaeology. I don't know if the miracles really happened but i don't have enough evidence to show that they did.

Of course. because I have an overwhelming amount of evidence that they do.

If I wanted to I could provide you with sufficient evidence to that. You have not provided sufficient evidence that god exists.

You have a clever proposition.
You don't "really" want "proof" of Gods existance, but rather "Evidence" that must satisfy what you call "sufficient evidence".

You trust scientific evidences, when you have neither seen the scientist, know his ethics, or know of his man made and calibrated tools, gadgetry, specs, allowances and would guess it doubtful you have read the scientist own journals.

And If a scientist says your thoughts are only derived from your brain, and without seeing thoughts manifested, you trust that is sufficient evidence.

But yet, When Scripture notifies you of The Lord God, has created and made the World: a world you can See and Observe the Awe, Complexity, Magnitude, and the Abundance of Life.....it just isn't quite up to your standard of viable "evidence" to believe.

Personally I find the simplicity of a Forest of trees, without mans intervention, More reliable evidence of God, than a man dictating the thoughts only come from a brain.

And just to note, the thoughts of the Carnal mind and the thoughts of the heart, are taught in Scripture. [and have person experience with both].

Looks like your quest for "sufficient evidence", might be dashed.

For men who "choose" to not believe;
God blinds their minds and hardens their hearts.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Vince]

I believe Ishmael''s God was The Supreme Heavenly God, and over a course of time by human manipulation a false god is being worshiped.

Glory to God,
Taken

Ok. How about Aten, Waheguru, Bahai God, Vishnu, Jasagnon, These gods were/are considered the creator god by some.

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe Ishmael''s God was The Supreme Heavenly God, and over a course of time by human manipulation a false god is being worshiped.

Glory to God,
Taken

hey, just like us huh!

 

[Taken]

Ok. How about Aten, Waheguru, Bahai God, Vishnu, Jasagnon, These gods were/are considered the creator god by some.

Hundreds of gods have been invented by men. Which ones do you worship?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

hey, just like us huh!

Did you work with your Uncle, traveling through Arab nations and pick up bits and pieces of street preachers and turn that into a religion and then foster the notion that that religion must be accepted by all people of your nation?

I didn't.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Vince]

You have a clever proposition.
You don't "really" want "proof" of Gods existance, but rather "Evidence" that must satisfy what you call "sufficient evidence".

Yes

You trust scientific evidences, when you have neither seen the scientist, know his ethics, or know of his man made and calibrated tools, gadgetry, specs, allowances and would guess it doubtful you have read the scientist own journals.

Sure, but there are evidences that the scientific method with peer review is a trustworthy process for knowledge. So believing the results of science is a reasonable position. I may believe in things that are not true but it has been shown that most are true. Look at cars/planes/ buildings etc. Was it the bible where we gained this information to make these things? No it was science. So I have a reasonable level of confidence that science is telling the truth.

And If a scientist says your thoughts are only derived from your brain, and without seeing thoughts manifested, you trust that is sufficient evidence.

Yes. Many scientific studies have been done to confirm this.

But yet, When Scripture notifies you of The Lord God, has created and made the World: a world you can See and Observe the Awe, Complexity, Magnitude, and the Abundance of Life.....it just isn't quite up to your standard of viable "evidence" to believe.

Yes because there is no evidence to believe that the bible is gods word over the quran or any other religious writings. How do I determine teh differnce between different creation claims?

Personally I find the simplicity of a Forest of trees, without mans intervention, More reliable evidence of God, than a man dictating the thoughts only come from a brain.

Great you have every right to believe this.

Looks like your quest for "sufficient evidence", might be dashed.

For men who "choose" to not believe;
God blinds their minds and hardens their hearts.

And again, no one can choose to believe or not believe something. They can deny or say they believe something but in their minds they know whether they believe or not for real. How do you choose to believe in Bigfoot? You would always know in tour own mind that you don't believe it.

 

[Vince]

Hundreds of gods have been invented by men. Which ones do you worship?

Glory to God,
Taken

My understanding was that you claimed that the god of the bible is the only god that claims to be the creator. I was showing you other gods have claimed this. It is interesting that you can discount other god claims because of lack of evidence but you cant understand why I don't believe yours?

 

[Stranger]

And I disagreed with the evidence. That is circular and is not evidence. You can disagree but that is my opinion. You cannot say god is real because I believe in him. I believe in big foot does that make him real?

The evidence is not for you. It is for the believer. It doesn't matter if you disagree or not. As I said, I don't care how circular it is.

I didn't say God is real because I believe in Him. I said God is real and He has given me the faith to believe in Him.

God is real or He isn't. The faith of the believer does not affect it. And your lack of faith does not affect it.

Stranger

 

[Willie T]

Nope. You believe the bible to be true so when you use the term in the context you use it I assumed you were using it according to your beliefs.

Do you even know "my beliefs?"