Why Christians not under the Torah

[dak]

I'll stick with the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood.

Hebrews 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.

There is so much wrong with that rendering and your perspective.

In that He says renewed, He has made the former old: and that which is waxing old and decaying is near to vanishing.

Waxing old, decaying, (and dying), are references to the flesh and the physical, which does just that. This is speaking of the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, Scribes, and their carnal minded understanding and interpretations of the Torah, which were erroneous and against the people.

Moreover the former is not the same as the first, which is an important distinction and why I render protos that way herein, for the first, (Exodus 19->31), will never pass away. However it was taken from Yisrael because of the golden calf incident, (Exodus 32), where the first two tablets of the Ten Words were broken by Mosheh when he beheld what they had done.

After that a renewed covenant was given, based on the logos within the rhema-spoken words in the first covenant, and that covenant is found in Exodus 34. That covenant is susceptible to annulment because it is personal and individual, and if later the rulers of the people began to misunderstand and misinterpret that covenant then it could indeed be abolished. The renewed covenant in Jer. 31 and Heb. 8 is the first covenant being renewed and written upon the heart by way of the logos contained within it and as expounded in the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, (without understanding his Testimony one will never get it).

 

[Jack]

There is so much wrong with that rendering and your perspective.

In that He says renewed, He has made the former old: and that which is waxing old and decaying is near to vanishing.

Waxing old, decaying, (and dying), are references to the flesh and the physical, which does just that. This is speaking of the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, Scribes, and their carnal minded understanding and interpretations of the Torah, which were erroneous and against the people.

Moreover the former is not the same as the first, which is an important distinction and why I render protos that way herein, for the first, (Exodus 19->31), will never pass away. However it was taken from Yisrael because of the golden calf incident, (Exodus 32), where the first two tablets of the Ten Words were broken by Mosheh when he beheld what they had done.

After that a renewed covenant was given, based on the logos within the rhema-spoken words in the first covenant, and that covenant is found in Exodus 34. That covenant is susceptible to annulment because it is personal and individual, and if later the rulers of the people began to misunderstand and misinterpret that covenant then it could indeed be abolished. The renewed covenant in Jer. 31 and Heb. 8 is the first covenant being renewed and written upon the heart by way of the logos contained within it and as expounded in the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, (without understanding his Testimony one will never get it).

All you have given are YOUR opinions! Your opinions do not overrule Jesus. I'll stick with Jesus, God of the Bible and His Blood Covenant, the New Covenant!

Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

 

[dak]

Galatians 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

That says "the works of the law", not the Torah itself, for the works of the law is an idiom for the teachings and instructions of the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, and Scribes, based on their own faulty, natural minded, carnal understandings of the Torah which were nailed to the stake.

Moreover I am neither "under" the Torah, nor "under" the curse of the Torah: that was one of the reasons for trying to show you why "OBEY" is an incorrect antinomian rendering by the KJV. It is not about OBEY, OBEY, OBEY, it is about LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. Anyone who indeed loves the Father and His Word who is His Son is not going to seek to abolish His Word who is His Son, and that includes the Torah which is full of Living Oracles, (Acts 7:37-38).

Meshiah took the curse of the Torah upon himself in my place: I therefore have no reason to fear Torah observance knowing that the Torah is spiritual, (again, Rom 7:14a), and neither do I have any reason or need to abolish or sideline the Torah, for I can do all things through Meshiah who strengthens me by his holy Testimony in the Gospel accounts. You have that need because your own carnal mind cannot understand the Torah, nor can it be subject to the Torah, and that is because you choose death, (Deut 30:11-19 and Romans 10:6-8 quoting from that same passage), that is, the Pharisee natural minded physical way of understanding everything in the Torah as fleshly and physical in meaning, which is to choose death over life even according to Paul in the Rom 8:4-8 passage already mentioned previously in Reply#19.

Moreover, also according to Paul in 2Cor 3:7-16, (take note: where he quotes from Exodus 34 and calls that covenant the old covenant, just as I have already explained to you), he says that the veil over your heart and mind when you read the old covenant can only be removed "IN MESHIAH, (or "IN CHRIST"), which means that currently you are not "IN CHRIST" according to Paul. You've been spoon fed and sold a bill of goods from scripture illiterates who neither understand Meshiah, nor Paul, nor the Torah.

The goal is to have the veil removed from your heart and mind in Meshiah: not to take it upon yourself to remove the Torah from your heart, mind, and eyes! Paul is not teaching what you are teaching by twisting so many of his words and statements to fit your own paradigm. You are preaching a different gospel than Paul: and therefore I am admonished by Paul himself to consider you to be the one who is accursed.

 

[Jack]

That says "the works of the law", not the Torah itself, for the works of the law is an idiom for the teachings and instructions of the Sanhedrin, Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, and Scribes, based on their own faulty, natural minded, carnal understandings of the Torah which were nailed to the stake.

Torah is THE LAW of Moses! Now you know.

Moreover I am neither "under" the Torah, nor "under" the curse of the Torah: that was one of the reasons for trying to show you why "OBEY" is an incorrect antinomian rendering by the KJV. It is not about OBEY, OBEY, OBEY, it is about LOVE, LOVE, LOVE.

Then we agree, you don't obey Torah!

 

[dak]

Then we agree, you don't obey Torah!

Correction: I do not "obey" Torah according to your understanding, which is carnal and flesh minded, and especially when it comes to your understanding of the sacrifices, which agrees with the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and which is abomination in the eyes of the Most High. If you loved the Father and His Word who is His Son you would know such things.

 

[Jack]

Correction: I do not "obey" Torah according to your understanding, which is carnal and flesh minded, and especially when it comes to your understanding of the sacrifices, which agrees with the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and which is abomination in the eyes of the Most High. If you loved the Father and His Word who is His Son you would know such things.

I know what Torah says. You should read it. You don't obey it.

 

[dak]

I know what Torah says. You should read it. You don't obey it.

This is now becoming just a disruption of this thread. Have a nice day.
Nice chatting.

 

[Jack]

This is now becoming just a disruption of this thread. Have a nice day.
Nice chatting. View attachment 85415

Still don't know anyone who obeys Torah? Neither do I. Don't preach it until YOU obey it!

 

[dak]

Still don't know anyone who obeys Torah? Neither do I. Don't preach it until YOU obey it!

In other words you preach the flesh because you obey it. Got it.

 

[Jack]

In other words you preach the flesh because you obey it. Got it.

Do you even have a blood sacrifice for your sins? I do.

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[dak]

Do you even have a blood sacrifice for your sins? I do.

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1) You do not understand the Torah.
2) The question you ask combined with the verse you have quoted reveals that you count the Meshiah is the replacement for all the animals you incorrectly assume to be meant in the sacrifices of the Torah, which again, is spiritual according to Paul in Rom 7:14a, and because of that error you ended up with a literal human sacrifice for your sins.
3) Did I not already warn you that literal-physical sacrifices and slaughtered living souls of the creation of Elohim are an abomination in the eyes of the Most High? Do you think I just made that up myself?

Isaiah 1:10-15 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
10 Hear the word of יהוה, you rulers of Seḏom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Amorah!
11 “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares יהוה. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats.
12 “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards?
13 “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly.
14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.
15 “And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood.

Animal sacrifices result in bloodguilt. Did I not already try to warn you that you have sided with the Pharisees against the teachings of the Master in the Gospel accounts? They did not understand the Torah much better than you do, and yet you are even worse off than them for using their interpretations of the Torah just so you can feel that you have a good reason to abolish it.

Isaiah 66:1-4 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
1 Thus said יהוה, “The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is this house that you build for Me? And where is this place of My rest?
2 “And all these My hand have made, and all these that exist,” declares יהוה. “Yet to such a one I look: on him who is poor and bruised of spirit, and who trembles at My Word.
3 “But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations.
4 “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.”

All of the supposed animal sacrifices in the Torah with their statutes and body parts use words that have double or multiple meanings: they can be understood as purely physical according to the carnal mind of the natural man, or they can be understood in supernal and spiritual ways according to the mind of the Spirit. There is therefore a choice to be made, which I have already mentioned, and which is found at the latter end of Deut 30 passage. You have chosen death instead of life, according to your natural minded, Pharisaic, strictly physical understanding of the Torah.
.

 

[Jack]

1) You do not understand the Torah.
2) The question you ask combined with the verse you have quoted reveals that you count the Meshiah is the replacement for all the animals you incorrectly assume to be meant in the sacrifices of the Torah, which again, is spiritual according to Paul in Rom 7:14a, and because of that error you ended up with a literal human sacrifice for your sins.
3) Did I not already warn you that literal-physical sacrifices and slaughtered living souls of the creation of Elohim are an abomination in the eyes of the Most High? Do you think I just made that up myself?

Isaiah 1:10-15 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
10 Hear the word of יהוה, you rulers of Seḏom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Amorah!
11 “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares יהוה. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats.
12 “When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards?
13 “Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings – I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly.
14 “My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.
15 “And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood.

Animal sacrifices result in bloodguilt. Did I not already try to warn you that you have sided with the Pharisees against the teachings of the Master in the Gospel accounts? They did not understand the Torah much better than you do, and yet you are even worse off than them for using their interpretations of the Torah just so you can feel that you have a good reason to abolish it.

Isaiah 66:1-4 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
1 Thus said יהוה, “The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is this house that you build for Me? And where is this place of My rest?
2 “And all these My hand have made, and all these that exist,” declares יהוה. “Yet to such a one I look: on him who is poor and bruised of spirit, and who trembles at My Word.
3 “But whoever slaughters the bull slays a man; whoever slaughters the lamb breaks a dog’s neck; whoever brings a grain offering – pig’s blood; whoever burns incense blesses an idol. Indeed, they have chosen their own ways, and their being delights in their abominations.
4 “I shall also choose their punishments, and bring their fears on them. Because I called, but no one answered. I spoke and they did not hear, and they did evil before My eyes, and chose what was displeasing to Me.”

All of the supposed animal sacrifices in the Torah with their statutes and body parts use words that have double or multiple meanings: they can be understood as purely physical according to the carnal mind of the natural man, or they can be understood in supernal and spiritual ways according to the mind of the Spirit. There is therefore a choice to be made, which I have already mentioned, and which is found at the latter end of Deut 30 passage. You have chosen death instead of life, according to your natural minded, Pharisaic, strictly physical understanding of the Torah.
.

No sacrifice for your sins? I'll stick with Jesus!

Romans 5:8-9
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

 

[dak]

No sacrifice for your sins? I'll stick with Jesus!

Dream on, I said no such thing.

Romans 5:8-9
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

You do not realize the dilemma you have created for yourself? If you are going to view the Torah as literal and physical, you are required to view and understand all of it that way, not just the parts you pick and choose to read that way, otherwise you make yourself a double-minded hypocrite, and this is especially true concerning the sacrifices. However you cannot possibly do that and adhere to the teachings of Meshiah and also even Paul at the same time.

For example:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 KJV
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

According to your carnal minded understanding of the Pesakh, (Passover), and because you count the crucifixion of the Meshiah as a literal human sacrifice for your sins, replacing all of your supposed-assumed animal sacrifices in the Torah with the body of Meshiah as your literal human sacrifice in the place of literal animal sacrifices: you therefore cannot do as Paul admonishes the Corinthians to do in the above passage because you do not have the literal blood of Meshiah from the crucifixion in order to apply it to the side posts and lintel of the door of your house.

No blood of the Lamb = Destroyer/Death Angel has free entry into your house.

Again, you choose death, and again, you preach a false gospel which is utterly different from the Gospel of Paul, which makes you accursed according to Paul's own words.

 

[Behold]

Christians are not under Moses Law, because they are under "God's Grace."

"Christ is the END of the LAW for RIGHTEOUSNESS, for everyone who BELIEVES"..

Now here is the issue that Jews have.......religious jews.

"Being ignorant of GOD's Righteousness, they go about to establish their own"... by trying to keep Moses law.

And Christians who do not understand their Salvation, who have not "worked it out".......are doing the same thing.
They are trying to PERFORM before God, to try to keep themselves saved., and they do this because their faith is wrong, which means they are IGNORANT of "God's Righteousness".

 

[Jack]

Dream on, I said no such thing.

So, what is your sacrifice for your sins? Jesus is mine.

You do not realize the dilemma you have created for yourself?

No dilemma whatsoever. Jesus is God of the Bible. The OT proves it!

If you are going to view the Torah as literal and physical, you are required to view and understand all of it that way, not just the parts you pick and choose to read that way, otherwise you make yourself a double-minded hypocrite, and this is especially true concerning the sacrifices. However you cannot possibly do that and adhere to the teachings of Meshiah and also even Paul at the same time.

For example:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 KJV
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

According to your carnal minded understanding of the Pesakh, (Passover), and because you count the crucifixion of the Meshiah as a literal human sacrifice for your sins, replacing all of your supposed-assumed animal sacrifices in the Torah with the body of Meshiah as your literal human sacrifice in the place of literal animal sacrifices: you therefore cannot do as Paul admonishes the Corinthians to do in the above passage because you do not have the literal blood of Meshiah from the crucifixion in order to apply it to the side posts and lintel of the door of your house.

No blood of the Lamb = Destroyer/Death Angel has free entry into your house.

Your wishing doesn't make it so. I have God / Jesus' MANY promises.

Again, you choose death, and again, you preach a false gospel which is utterly different from the Gospel of Paul, which makes you accursed according to Paul's own words.

So you don't have a sacrifice for your sins? Do you sacrifice animals as Moses COMMANDED?