Why did Jesus tell the thief he would be with Him in paradise that same day?

[quietthinker]

I didn't mention the previous bibles. I said the KJV has been around over 400 years. No straw man, the KJV has been saving people for over 400years, undeniable. Romans 10:17 - faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

So God has blessed the King James bible and used it and Jesus quoted from it correctly.

hear me, it's the song and dance which qualifies as the straw man.

 

[Gottservant]

I don't understand why you have to make it complicated: the murderer had nothing against Jesus; having nothing against Jesus is bliss, if Jesus blesses you back, it's paradise?

Jesus suffered the death of paradise, which went on to be the resurrection - it is the resurrection that gives hope (despite paradise dying).

One thing becomes another, working together for good, for those that love the Lord.

 

[Davy]

Out of interest, there were many translations before the KJV. There was Luthers translation and the Geneva Bible which incidentally the pilgrims took with them and used, to mention few. The song and dance re the KJV is a straw man......and do we forget that God can use rocks and donkeys when it serves his purposes?

All those previous... Bible translations prior to the 1611 KJV all used the same manuscript resources, based from either translations of the Majority text, or directly from the Majority text. And for the OT, they all used the same Hebrew resources. So the "song and dance" is actually yours.

 

[quietthinker]

All those previous... Bible translations prior to the 1611 KJV all used the same manuscript resources, based from either translations of the Majority text, or directly from the Majority text. And for the OT, they all used the same Hebrew resources. So the "song and dance" is actually yours.

me making a song and dance about this??....where is your discernment Davy?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth following His crucifixion in Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

So this seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? Was He in two places at once? The heart of the earth, where Jesus went to preach to the spirits in captivity as per 1 Peter 3:19, is surely not paradise by any stretch of the imagination.

Acts 1:2-3 mentions that He had not yet ascended to heaven, but was with them for 40 days.

...until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God

John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended yet.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

Acts 1:9-11 describes precisely when Jesus ascends to heaven.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?

Its not a contradiction when you understand what one Jew was saying to the one he recognized as Messiah. Only a short time before their deaths, both of the criminals were having a go at Jesus as recorded by both Matthew and Mark ( Matt 27:44; Mark 15:32) but for some reason, one of them had a change of heart and acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah. He asked Jesus to remember him when he got into his Kingdom.....something that only a Jew would understand because the Jewish expectation was for that Kingdom to rule the earth.

Jews did not originally believe in an immortal soul as there was no such teaching in their scripture (it was adopted later under Greek influence).....so for Jesus to be with that man in heaven that day would have meant for both of them to become spirits and fly off to heaven together.....but is that what Jesus said ?

"And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
There is no punctuation in Greek, so the comma placed after the word "you" is misleading because of what the rest of the scriptures you highlighted, suggest.....because if you place the comma after the word "today" it is a completely different promise.

Neither the criminal nor Jesus went anywhere that day. Jesus was alluding to the future when he was to resurrect all the dead in sheol (the grave. John 5:28-29) and bring them back to "paradise" (not heaven) which was where God put humans in the first place. Jesus would restore paradise conditions to the earth....only a chosen "few" would join Christ in heaven as his elect.....the ones chosen by God to be 'kings and priests' to rule with Jesus in the heavenly Kingdom. (Rev 20:6)

Messiah was to come and restore what Adam lost for all his children, so Jesus was promising the thief that a resurrection was guaranteed for him when the time came for his life to be restored in the coming resurrection. He made the promise that day....not that he was going to be in heaven with the thief that day.

 

[Davy]

me making a song and dance about this??....where is your discernment Davy?

You said:

"The song and dance re the KJV is a straw man.." YOUR words, not mine. And it was a mocking against the 1611 KJV Bible.

 

[MatthewG]

Because Jesus was going to hell with him.

Jesus ended up in paradise and went to teach the spirits in prison.

Hell/Sheol is where everyone that died went to.

Because it has yet to be done away with - which happens in revelation, and the place called hell is done with and over today.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Because Jesus was going to hell with him.

Yes, because Jews knew that Sheol/hades is simply the grave. The “Hell” that Christendom teaches does not exist.

Jesus ended up in paradise and went to teach the spirits in prison.

Actually it was after his resurrection that Jesus went to the “spirits in prison” who were identified by Peter and Jude as the angels who forsook their proper dwelling place and were placed in a condition of restraint called Tartarus, which is not “hell” either. (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6)
What Jesus “preached” to those demon angels was a judgment message.

Hell/Sheol is where everyone that died went to.

Yes, Jews did not believe in an immortal soul, they believed in resurrection, which is something completely different. Nor did they know about the fact that the Kingdom of God would rule from heaven over the earth.

Because it has yet to be done away with - which happens in revelation, and the place called hell is done with and over today.

Death and the place where all the dead sleep, (sheol/hades) are cast into the lake of fire....never to trouble mankind again. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Revelation 20:14)

Paradise is not heaven.....it is the restoration of what God started in Eden, but was derailed for a time by the disobedience of three individuals, one of them a powerful, formerly trusted angel. God had to deal with that situation so that it could never happen again......that way he could finish what he started in the timeframe that he allowed for. (Isaiah 55:11)

God’s counting of time is obviously not the same as ours, so what seems to be taking too long from the human standpoint, we can be assured that restoration of God’s original purpose for mankind on this earth will not take a day longer than necessary. (Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I found a man on YouTube (pretty sure he’s dead now) who I think spoke well about the doctrine of eternal torment. He gave many verses to support his thoughts on it. His name was Edward Fudge.
Even if you walk away disagreeing, it will give you a larger scope.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Jesus said He would be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth following His crucifixion in Matthew 12:40

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

But Jesus also said to the thief on the cross today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

So this seems like a contradiction, doesn't it? Was He in two places at once? The heart of the earth, where Jesus went to preach to the spirits in captivity as per 1 Peter 3:19, is surely not paradise by any stretch of the imagination.

Acts 1:2-3 mentions that He had not yet ascended to heaven, but was with them for 40 days.

...until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God

John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to cling to Him for He had not ascended yet.

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

Acts 1:9-11 describes precisely when Jesus ascends to heaven.

After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?

Punctuation like commas didn't exist when the scriptures were first inspired by God and written down. Actually punctuation like commas didn't exist in the scriptures until centuries after Jesus Christ. So the scripture at Luke 23:43 people are going by where someone put a comma, for instance Luke 23:43 with the comma before the word "to day" doesn't make since: "And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise"
Jesus wasn't even in heaven until 40 days after his resurrection from death. But with the comma after the word "to day" it's an entirely different statement and it makes since because it's not giving an actual time when this thief will be in paradise, Jesus is just making him a promise on that day he was being put to death that he would be in paradise.
And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise .

 

[quietthinker]

You said:

"The song and dance re the KJV is a straw man.." YOUR words, not mine. And it was a mocking against the 1611 KJV Bible.

You have extremely poor hearing Davy....read it again and see if the hearing has improved.

 

[Davy]

You have extremely poor hearing Davy....read it again and see if the hearing has improved.

All I know is what YOU WROTE. Now if what YOU wrote was a mistake, then YOU need to correct it.

 

[JunChosen]

Seems to me that none here has the capacity to understand the concept of the whole Scripture. I mean....

Everyone speaks as if they know the full intent of what God has declared in His book called the Bible, even after Paul told Timothy, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...."

But the most dramatic, ominous import God has declared that has NOT been mentioned nor utilized on this thread, is that God spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. [Mark 4:34]. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning!

Armed with this knowledge, now try to unravel what dialogue took place between Jesus and the thief, bearing in mind also 2 Corinthians 5:8 which reads:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Upon death of a saved person his body goes back to the dust but his spirit goes back to be with God, while, when a reprobate dies both his body and soul goes back to the dust and awaits resurrection to be placed in the Lake of Fire reserved for Satan and his angels!

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Aunty Jane]

Seems to me that none here has the capacity to understand the concept of the whole Scripture. I mean....

Everyone speaks as if they know the full intent of what God has declared in His book called the Bible, even after Paul told Timothy, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...."

But the most dramatic, ominous import God has declared that has NOT been mentioned nor utilized on this thread, is that God spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. [Mark 4:34]. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning!

Actually it was Matthew who said that about Jesus. (Matthew 13:35)

Armed with this knowledge, now try to unravel what dialogue took place between Jesus and the thief, bearing in mind also 2 Corinthians 5:8 which reads:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

What was Paul, (as a Jew) alluding to by that statement?
It wasn't until after Jesus' resurrection and ascension to heaven that the holy spirit was poured out on 120 disciples gathered in an upper room...only then did God's spirit reveal the heavenly nature of the kingdom....and the choosing of his elect who would be resurrected in a spirit body instead of the fleshly one, as Jesus was.....they had to leave their flesh behind. They will be absent from a body of flesh but raised in an incorruptible spirit body.

Jews were never taught about an immortal soul, nor is there any mention of one in the Christian scriptures. You will not find the word "immortal soul" anywhere in the Bible.
The doctrine of an immortal soul is an adoption from Greek influence.....it is not a Bible teaching at all. The Jews believed in resurrection, which Jesus himself demonstrated on a number of occasions.....it was a restoration of this fleshly life for those ones....not a continuation of it somewhere else.

Upon death of a saved person his body goes back to the dust but his spirit goes back to be with God, while, when a reprobate dies both his body and soul goes back to the dust and awaits resurrection to be placed in the Lake of Fire reserved for Satan and his angels!

That isn't what the Bible teaches. The soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) It is the "spirit" that returns to God, not the "soul". Go back to the garden of Eden and see that Adam was not "given" a soul but "became" one when God stated him breathing. It was the breath (spirit) of life that made Adam "a living soul".
The spirit is the breath that animates the soul, recharging every cell with oxygen. So Paul's expression in 2 Cor 5:8 is one of the elect speaking on behalf of his brothers in Christ about their desire to be with the Lord....something they cannot do in the flesh. To go where their Master is means undergoing the same kind of death and resurrection as Jesus did. (1 Pet 3:18; Rom 6:4-5)

When an unbeliever dies and they have had witness borne to them that Jesus is the Christ, yet rejected him, the place reserved for them is "gehenna"(Falsely translated "hell" in many Bibles)....but it simply means a state of eternal death.....They just won't wake up.

Animals too are "souls" who die the same death as humans do (Eccl 3:19-20).....but only humans are promised a resurrection. (John 5:28, 29)

I hope this helps.

Helps who...?